diazbro

Well I posted in the other "eyewitness" thread about my experiences with the alleged overthrow attempt so I won't repost here. I do recall that "America Awakes" was issued that year (1976 or at least I think it was). My initial impression was that it was a pretty good record and I enjoyed most of the songs. I've posted this before and have acknowledged to Socks that I liked the record but the mandatory listenings became too much for me to bear. At first the Twig Leader was playing it everyday which was okay because I'm figuring that since its new , that they were into it. But like 3 and 4 monhts after it came out they were still spinning it before and after Twig. And then we had teachings where someone would analyze the lyrics, and then we were being asked if we had bought copies. And then someone said that it would make a great gift and before you knew it I wound up with multiple copies. I made the mistake of asking the TC to play someting else (other way music Pressed Down maybe) and boy did I Get the dirty look. She told me that listening to America Awakes was key to understanding how and why God made possible the formation of a country like the US. It was freaky, she was saying that I needed to "work it" else I would become part of the adversary's plan to undermine the US and what it stood for. Well what could I say. I'd never been ask to "work a record" before. It was too much for me but after that experience I had people come up to me and and thanking me for saying what they had wanted to say. Of course even then you had the suckups who were definitely acting as if listening to America Awakes was a valid substitute for the Bible. I think I still have this album somewhere but I don't have the urge to pull it out and listen to it. No way man. Not even once. I heard that record so much that I can never hear it again. Also this was about the time that I Was told by several people that witnessing was important to get the word over the world because when that happened, then christ would return. No it wasn't written down anyehere, just like the alleged US government overthrow was never written down, but it did happen and people were thinking that they had to witness like crazy to get WOW so we could hasten the Return. It didn't sound right to me though. I mean that will happen when it does and it saus that no man knows the time so how could we possibly make it happen ? I never heard an explicit retraction of this statement though others told me that "HQ said that was wrong" though I could never get specifics. Also I remember hearing a great deal about the various deprogramming attempts that were going on. (This could have been 75 ) and how we should protect ourselves by watching out for each other (perhaps an early version of the 80s mandate that you must travel in pairs). We heard some SNS tape about a described deporgramming experience and the Twig leader then told us how it was devil possession that the girl no longer believed 4 crucified and various other way teachings. The TL went on about how risky it was to "be outside the hedge of protection" and that she know of a woman who was raped because she was out of fellowship because she had merely considered that certain way teachings weren't true. Speaking of the TL, she was this really intense young woman who seemed to pour her all into the WOW and TL experience. It was my first brush with someone so serious about things and prior to that all I had met were mostly laid back hippy types and this woman was not at all in that mold. But the truth was that she wasn't really like that - so serious I mean. It was mostly an act because when I talked to her one one one she dropped the act and was very pleasant to talk to. She wouldn't talk about her life outside of TWI nor did she even openly acknowledge her family life or parents. This was perhaps my first encounter with someone who had cut the ties to her family in favor of TWI. She actually scared a lot of newcomers to Twig to the extent that they never returned and I think in a strange way she was proud of it since she thought she was weeding out the bad ones or something. She was very "spirit" oriented and spoke frequently of possession and how you had to be on the look out for that type of thing. The weird thing that was in spite of all this I never felt bad towards her. I kind of looked at here as a decent person who was desperately trying to be someone else. I felt sorry for her. Despite all her near fanatic dedication to TWI there was a sadness there she kept trying to hide. I knew what that was like so perhaps thats why I picked up on it. She wound up getting married to a guy who had an equal level of intensity. He claimed to have once witnessed for 48 hours straight and that god and SIT kept him energized enough to go immediately into a PFAL class with no percpetible lack of energy. Of course it didn't really ring true but it was a typical Way story at that time.

Prior to my days with the Way (my way daze) I had often pondered the autheticity of the bible as the "word of god" and had concluded that it was a book of inspired works that had been collected over a period of time. I was somewhat optimistic that that selection process was divinely guided but even that kind of thinking would get you in hot water in TWI. Someone once saw that I had a "Living Bible" in my place and they began to tell me how messed up that was since it was the "adversary's attempt" to counterfeit the "true" word of God. This was always odd since KJV was a translation yet no one in TWI seemed to apply the same skepticism to it that they applied to the Living Bible which was simply another translation (albeit of the KJV). I've done lots of translation work between languages (spanish to english) and anytime someone is translating something of even a moderate level of complexity, something WILL always get lost especially if the content is rich in symbolism and methaphors , the strength of which might rely upon a given culture or specific language to be totally effective. As we know, the KJV is rich with flowery, symbolic language and culture specific references so on we are several times removed from the original meaings of those writings which in turn are the works of men (though supposedly inspired by God). I admire the attempts to make sense of some of the references ("Orientalisms" by Pillai) so westerners could see the meaning behind some of the accounts but that doesn't necessarily guarantee that KJV is "the source" for the word. I recall VPW's comments of " I wish you could see it in the original" (like he ever did himself) as if he had been privy to some scroll featuring the penmanship of God himself. His comments never rang true then and they ring even less true now. Frankly even if he did see some of the oldest scrolls containing elements of what we now call the bible I don't think he even had the necessary background to make a valid assessment of what he was actually looking at. I mean his Phd was from a diploma mill so it was for sure he lacked the requisite research skills to even approach those documents with some level of reasonable intelligence. Well I'm not suggesting one point of view over another. Believe as you wish but there are definite problems when people start calling KJV the "word of god" or claim that they have superior methods of interpretation that would permit us to determine the true intent and desire of God using some "techniques" taught in a PFAL class. I've always felt that KJV was a book of information based primarily on the experiences of men despite the authoritative tone that accompanies , for example, the book of Genesis. It is written by someone who is narrating the formation of the Earth which suggests that it was a scneario that was passed down to someone who eventually documented it - unless of course you believe that God did it. Of course it is interesting that general literacy was a concept that didn't exist. Reading and writing was not a common skill set so even as we arrived at what eventually became the KJV, many people could not enjoy it or consider it even though it was all in English. Of course that didn't help people who didnt' speak English.

Well it has never been firmly established that LCM is really *out* of TWI so it is entirely possible that he is doing some form of penance. In my opinion, given the legal heat it was most likely a strong suggestion by TWI's legal team that led to Craig's "dismissal" though I would not at all be surprised to hear that he is still getting money from TWI and that at some point in the future he will return to some form of official participation. According to posts here, his "books" are still sold through the booksore , err bookstore and his wife has been permitted to remain on site so it seems to me that Craig's departure is merely a cosmetic gesture and nothing else.

Okay as far back as 76 I've heard Way leaders use Luke 17:2 as a reference to those who would turn their backs on their committment to TWI: "It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones." the first time I heard it, it was a teaching by VPW ,in say 1976, in reference to those who would be ordained as clergy. If those people turned around and left their appointment then VPW was saying that they would encounter an untimely and unpleasant demise. Okay so then later , like in 79 or 80 I heard it taught this verse applies to anyone , ordained or not, who left the WOW field. So they adjusted their "present truth" to scare WOWs into staying on the field. the last I heard of this was maybe 83 or 84 when it was applied to anyone who was thinking of bailing on TWI - that if you did then you were asking for it and this verse was to you from God and that leaving TWI was walking out on your commitment to God so you were knowingly "throwing off" that "hedge of protection". I'm sure that it has been used to scare lots of people into staying. Once the leaders realized that people were disenchanted with the obvious lack of abudncance in their life and in TWI lifestyle in general (except for the top level leaders) then they decided to try to intimidate and spook people. I'm glad to say that I never fell for that crap but then again I left before it became standard behavior. to rip people a new one everytime they sawa someone.

Well the bigger question is can TWI be fixed ? I wouldn't bother worrying about individual components of TWI since the larger entity , in my opinion, is pretty horrible and motivated by the baser instincts in life. In terms of the Corps program, I never felt that it was that "right on" to begin with. My worst experiences in TWI always involved some gung-ho Corps guy or gal who was hell bent on telling me what to do, when to do it, and how often. Were all corps people "bad" ? I don't know. I didnt' meet them all and while I did encounter some reasonably cool Corps people it seemed that they were subject to influence by those above them so that they would cop the necessary attitude to please their leaders. Again not all were like this but enough were to make not trust any corps people or discuss anything of personal interest with them because inevitably it would be related to someone else and would even later be used against you as evidence of your spiritual shortcomings. If you were in the Corps and you made some positive contributions then good for you. I'm glad to hear it but I won't sugar coat things to make anyone feel better.

First I believe that it is pretty hard to shake your identity even if you don't have a strong conscious awareness of what it is or who you are. For most , it is a life long process but our personal instincts can help us avoid problems even though we might in fact wind up with those problems no matter what. Most of the people who were in TWI in the 70s were of the generation that really wanted to make a difference thus it was of little surprise that TWI grew as a result of this. Lots of alternative setups flourished for the very same reason. TWI overlayed a lot of crap on top of people who were fundamentally interested in making an improvement in their own lives and the lives of others. After you leave that environment it might take a while to peel off those layers of guilt, oppression, and general BS that had been sandblasted on by years in what was an unhealthy , demanding, black-and-white enviroment. So its of little surprise that people struggle with this and might in fact mistake their Way habits for being part of their authentic self. But given time and enough exposure to "normal" living one can see that those "teachings" and attitudes were an imposition on what was a basically well meaning human being. In this light the process to recovering your original "self" and reconnecting to your youthful optimism becomes much easier. Of course we do know that some people very much enjoyed being leaders while in TWI and it gave them an opportunity to act out control scenarios and push others around. In these cases I think that those people just carred into the Way their problems and insecurities but never really solved or addressed them. Well so much for the psycho babble but I think the human spirit is pretty resilient and as long as someone has a genuine interest in improvement and moving forward then things happen much quicker.

I was content with the editing options that previously existed and in fact had no awareness that the ability to edit had been curtailed. As far as I'm concerned I don't have lots of time to post here and when I do , I don't have time to remove all the "warts" from the post though I do try to make it readable for the general reader. In the past I definitely have edited some of my own posts but typically within minutes or hours of the original post when I realize that I needed to clarify things. But after that I don't need to go back and mess with it. Don't have the time. I am aware that in times past that some have taken editing to an extreme and in some cases have changed very old posts to make it seem as if they never wrote something. I do not think that this is cool but then again I don't know that I really care that much about it (except to point it out). Gspot is an online forum, not a newspaper or a magazine, so if posts are less than perfect in terms of grammar or spelling I'm not going to care. Though I do think that it is a problem if someone goes back to change something to escape accountability for a stated opinion. Obviously someone might have a change of heart about something or perhaps realize that a statement was made in a moment of anger but shouldn't they acknowledge it in their edit prociess instead of trying to act like it never happened ? Well I've said things that I later wished I'd never said and most likely will again and I'm sure I'm not alone. Note: I edited this post to fix a problem.... *laff*

In 1975 I heard that the goal of WOW was to hasten the return of Christ. So if we witnessed aggresively and went WOW then we could look forward to The Return. Later, , sometime in the early 80s, I heard that this was no longer true. Like most of the hair-barined teachings of TWI, none of this was ever written down in book or article. It was like in 76 when there was supposed to have been an attempt against the US government. This was not documented yet everyone knew about it. Of course when nothing happened the credit went to VPW for instructing us to pray about it. The thing that makes me angry about these things it that there are VPW defenders who will claim that stuff like thi snever happened (Even though they know it did) and they will always say someting like "well show me any way publication or teaching from that time that says that". Hell, of course they know that most of those whacky teachings were all verbally related so that there never would be a record of them. They just want to play dumb about it to keep the VPW legacy alive which it is - just not in the glowing light they would like.

In my opinion TWI website is nothing more than a placeholder site. The irony is that they used to forbid their followers from surfing the internet. It is hilarious how they want you to send postal mail to them as if anyone would do that. Also TWI used to talk about being "the best" though that attitude surely isn't reflected in the quality of their site which is totally amateur looking. It looks like websites did 7 years ago. I notice on their "Research" page that they have a picture that tells you all you need to know about TWI. You have what appears to be a bible, a concordance, both of which are are pushed to either side in favor of a pad of paper with various Way approved books in the back center as if those are "really what its all about". If you go into any REAL seminary library or theology library you see students buried under stacks of books preparing REAL biblical research and not just using one-sided books which advocate some arcane "teaching" designed to perpetuate the myth of VPW as "The Teacher". If nothing else ,TWI presents , in this one picture, the priorities for TWI follower 1) Push your Bible aside in favor of what we tell you verbally (the pad in the center is for taking notes at teachings) and 2) use the approved Books (displayed in the back center) to see what God really wants you to learn.

Indeed, TWI sought to categorize things especially LCM. Early on in TWI there was tolerance for homosexuals and we invited anyone and everyone to TWig - alcoholics, addicts,gay people, anyone so no one discrimated at least in the mid 70s in my area. Only later did the witch hunt for gay people begin to emerge as part of LCM's platform of hate and intolerance. Here is the thing that I could never understand. According to Way teaching, Homosexuality is caused by a devil spirit as is alcoholism yet I never recall there being endless teachings about how horrible drunks were despite the fact that there were many,many alcholics in TWI. I knew many and drank with them. So right there you have a huge problem in *logic* which is something that TWI claimed to be expert on. I mean if you are going to rail on day and night about "homos" why stop there ? Why not target the drunks also ? Why were they spared the wrath especially when there were so many of them. Perhaps it was because there were so many (some in leadership) that it wouldn't be a good topic for general discussion. Seems to me that alcoholism is a very destructive thing and it has ruined many marriages and personal relationships yet in TWI it got a pass. Why ? Way leaders perpetuated a double standard and arbitrarily decided that one category of devil spirit wasn't so bad whereas another was jus tthe worst so they had to rail on about it.

TWI , like many cults, owed its initial and intermediate success to idealiistic youth eager to make a difference. Lots of us were of the 60s and post 60s generation which sought to birng meaning to life so when we saw others like ourselves participating with TWI, it was an easy move to get involved. TWI owes much to youth and all its idealism. But what about now ? Its a collection of aging die hards and there is very little appeal to young people at any level. It is very much an "old persons" church and a ridiculously demanding one at that. What young person would be attracted to a life with TWI where the average age must be 40+ ? With whom would you speak , drink, or go out with ? TWI is a dead organization that is an antique, a relic of the past when "alternative religions" flourished becuase of youthful optimism and energy. But no young person who thinks for him/her self could ever be happy staying in TWI.

I heard that VPW had played guitar though ,personally, I never heard him play. I do recall that his comment about "laying down the guitar " was used a great deal by WOWs and Corps as an example of sacrifice -as if VPW had some preternatural ability for guitar and made the ultimate sacrifice by denying his "immense talent" for music (and basketball) in favor of servitude to God. I later learned that his musical abilites were ,at best, average and , in general, quite mediocre. Of course during the "good ole days" (early to mid 70s) VPW could do no wrong and was openly worshipped as a valid substitute for the "absent christ" though that phrase had yet to come into vogue. However I do recall that Stacey Bowen once said that "you don't have Jesus or Paul but you do have Doctor Wierwille". That comment made me ill though the bulk of the people enthusiastically applauded. How whacked was that ? Worse I once heard a starstruck WOW say that something to the effect of "Doctor is so right on that he can check out scenes and situations that ,for you and me (the average believer) , would mean that we be out of fellowship. But not for Doctor". Of course later this type of thinking was used by Way leadership to justify their licentious behavior.

I like to refer to TWLIL as my favorite book of Way *fiction* as I never saw the utopia that was alleged to have existed at HQ or in the lives of those who were totally committed to TWI. In my opinion it was a glorified religious phamplet/tract designed for marketing purposes. I'll say this though. It was very much a product of the time and any well-meaning, young person looking to make a difference would typically get excited when reading some of the passages though it could also be very corny in its attempts to make HQ look like the Elysian Fields.

There was a time when people were butting heads over its "accuracy" with some claiming that portions were fabricated or embellished. And in one case someone who was strongly critical of the book hadn't even read it !!! I still haven't figured that one out. Its like a theater critic panning a show without even having seen it. My response to critics of the book is to suggest that they write their own. I'm being completely serious. Its not like some major league outside writer is one day going to decide to write a book on TWI (unless it goes down in flames a la Branch Davidian or Jim Jones). So I'm sure we would all be glad to read it. If you have a book's worth of Way experiences then take the time to put it down on paper or maybe put it up on a website. Its not like KK's book wrote itself. He took the time and energy to do it and I don't see why others can't do the same. Your version doesn't at all have to line up with Karl's book since it would be your view. Put it this way. There is a lot of room for more books on TWI though , admittedly, the audience might not be so large so anyone writing a book should not be in it for the money. Frankly I think some people were upset that Karl was charging for this book and in some weird way (no pun intended) felt as if they should get it for free (since they were once in) which is an idea I think to be bizarre since he had to take the time to write it. One thing I've noticed at Waydale and Gspot is that *some* people get really, really weird when people start making even the smallest amounts of money of of Way related things (books on ebay, Karl's book, lawsuits). Its as if they feel that being in TWI at one time or another entitles them to a cut of the action. Or they feel that people seeking to get money for way related things should at least secure some general permission. I don't see this attitude so much anymore but it does pop up from time to time.

yes anton levay's outfit was much more about individualism than satanism. I looked into that outfit once and it was primarily a social club with members of the Los Angeles elite being flagship members. There was little mystery about if you ask me. A social club for people looking to network with people for purposes of self-aggrandizement. I'm not at all saying this is good or bad just pointing it out.

Well I moved into an appartment that had fire engine red drapes because I decided that that is what I wanted. Guess my needs and wants were parallel that day

Well my stay with TWI wasn't so typical as I've come to understand. I had had friends who were in TWI long before I went to a twig. Many of these people were former hippy pals with whom I had shared some good times and in my mind they were just investigating the lastest thing which for them was TWI. After I went to Twig I was content to come and go as it suited me and I didn't really encounter much resistance. I continuned like this for quite a while before the early waves of the Corps rolled around and started putting some pressure to take the class, go to the Rock, etc. I went along with it but again mostly because I had some strong friendship ties but as those disappeared (people moved, or I moved, or they left TWI) my reasons for staying became far less compelling. In the late 70s an especially agressive Corps guy rolled into town who was famous for reaming people and he was drawing the line about coming to fellowship, that it wasn't a part time thing, and God doesn't want lazy people, etc. I didn't argue with the guy, I just split. After he moved to another area I started hanging out with the few remaining Way friends I had and went to a twig or two but that was it for me in terms of formal participation. I did go to one of the music challenge things and saw people I hadn't seen in years so that was nice but it was far from sufficient to get me to go back to TWI. In many ways I was lucky didn't leave behind my life to pursue a "professional" career with TWI so I had just as many friends and acquaintances outside of TWI (more in fact) than I did within TWI. So it was hardly a stretch for me to drop out of TWI lifestyle since I was never really fully immersed in it at least to the extent that many others were (WOW, Corps, many relocations at the request of leadership). I didn't have a problem with them doing that but it wasn't for me and I wanted to go to school so I had those goals as a priority over any Way obligation I might have. I believe that many had problems detaching from TWI because they got married to other Way followers which sort of kept people in place. It wasn't like they could just pick up and leave since they had a spouse who might not see things the same way. Of course there were plenty of people who felt that TWI was gonna be there for them through thick and thin but came to realization (usually after many years of work and toil) that TWI wasn't interested in doing that. In fact they wanted the followers to contribute more to TWI. Kinda backwards isn't it ? There were no rewards or acknowledgements from TWI just increased expectations that you would donate more money each year. And as people got older and had kids they started realizing that picking up and moving whenever leaders wanted you to really sucked and impacted your whole life. (Actually for me this is the primary reason that TWI forbade home ownership. Not because it was against biblical teaching but it kept people very mobile so they could move at a moment's notice or whenever their lease term was over). And if you have a family do you really want to keep living in aprartments running Twigs and bugging peope to take 'The Class'. Some didn't mind but over time their pateince wore thin though not at the same rate as that of their spouse. Anyway thats an overview of my participation in TWI. At times I was really into it but for the most part it was just like going to church for me which of course bugged the hell out of those who though I should be more dedicated. I used to point out that most churches , even the one described in the Book of Acts, had comparatively few leaders in relation to the entire congregation(s) they served. That is the large majority of the christian followers had jobs, families, and friends in addition to their faith. No one expected the average believer to be the next Paul or go through some long series of programs to become "salted". No. the spirtual belief was to support and serve your current goals which were hopefully established with God in mind. But TWI wanted everyone to go through the same programs and classes as if everyone was supposed to be a leader of some type. It was a cookie cutter , one-size-fits-all mentality that had absolutely NO historical precedent. As most realize TWI pushed these programs to keep money flowing IN to HQ. As we know that money never flows OUT. So what was it VPW said (or stole) ? Receive, Retain, Release is essential to growth ? Perhaps this explains the delfation of the Way organization. Sure they have lots of money still but they are shrinking , they know it, and they know everyone knows it.

For many people TWI was their first and only exposure to so called christian teaching so it would be hard for them to even know what is commonly taught in mainstream churches. OF course TWI taught that mainstream churches were of the devil which is a position that has continued to influence the opinions of people even years after thier departure from TWI. I had some exposure to some larger denominations prior to my Way days. For me the allure of TWI was its sizeable contingent of people like myself - young, postive, and enthusiastic to make a difference. For this reason I was willing to hang out for a while (several years) to see where it was all going because I was really sure that it must be going somewhere. Some of the teachings appeared to be specialized and attempts to drill down into concepts I had heard about elsewhere. I mean plenty of mainstream churches discussed at length whether or not the dead are alive or "once saved always saved" or the "gifts of the spirit". TWI made it like no other church even cared about these things and that was a total lie. As we know VPW lifited the larger part of his more significant "Works" so its not as if TWI doctrine can be said to have originated with TWI in the first place. And even in that case I'm not convinced that the works of Bullinger, Stiles, Leonard, et al were necessarily right on either. It is interesting to consider their points of view but I don't thing its "god breathed". VPW presented a melange of the aforementioned works and added in considerable overhead in needless minuatae and detail as if even the smallest deviation from one of his recipes for the abundant life would cause ruin (as in the Law of Believing wherein "negative believing" could result in the death of a child). PErhaps he though by making the teachings so detailed he could keep people on a perpetual leash so we would keep coming back for the answers to questions to which he had no original answers (just answers he stole from others). So first off I don't think there is such a thing as "way doctrine". Its merely VPW's arrangement of the works of others. LCM and his followons are just building upon a foundation of deception and lies and we see that their total lack "growth and expansion" reflects that.

So long before I took PFAL and was led into SIT by a group of travelling christians who were basically a bunch of hippies doing the van thing around the country. It took all of 10 minutes for me to SIT and this was counting their explanation of the biblical precedents asscociated with tongues. They had a very small phamplet that laid out some verses with some one or two lines comments and that was it in terms of "teaching material". After the guy explained he said I could do it on my own if I wanted. And that was that. Later when I took PFAL I mentioned to one of the class leader types that I was already SIT and of course he probably thought it was counterfeit and asked me to refrain from it until session 12. He also asked me to keep quiet about and not tell other students. I thought all of this to be odd though later it became clear that he wanted PFAL to get the credit for my SIT activity. But after session 12 I told everyone that I had been able to SIT for quite some time and proceeded to explain how it happened. 10 minutes compared to 12 sessions ? I later found out that the class support people had been assigned to listen to "my tongues" during session 12 to determine if they were authentic or not. Hilarious.

Allan there is nothing new about someone charging onto the scene in attempt to convert the forum to "the word". It was attempted many times over at Waydale and in the early days of Gspot. You are one in a very long line of self appointed "deliverers". Also Its curious that you are here to 'defend the Faith'. What I want to know is who asked you to ? I mean its just a bunch of "dead wood" and lots of "chaff" in here. "Rejecters of the truth" and people who have "thrown the baby out with the bathwater". Feel free to use these phrases as those who came before you liked to employ these descriptions though I don't think they accomplished much of anything. But when utterred from the lips (or written from the fingertips) of the self anointed defender of the truth they have a particularly entertaining ring.

Yes its typically a subtractive process. They subtract and remove the "problem" teachings and reshuffle the remaining ideas "to fit" thereby achieving the proverbial "mathematical exactness and scientific precision" of which "doctor" spoke. Now exactly what teachings they remove or how they reorganize things to "fit" is not known and is most likely a process driven by emotion as opposed to logic or even some "working the word" process. So its like "hey that law of believeing didn't really work as advertised but instead of holding VPW responsible for it we'll just 'throw it out' or at least the sections we don't understand and start over. Isn't god wonderful ?". Now they won't admit that VPW had it all wrong or examine other teachings of his (well what he claimed to be his anyway). They just float VP a pass and knit up the gaping holes in the teaching with some emotional BS to make it sound okay to themselves and others. And of course these people expect others to readily accept this repackaged "lean and mean" truth as if it were what "Doctor really meant for us to have". Its an illness in my opinion. Using TWI as a sole source for everything and not being able to detach from it even when much of what TWI taught still did not result in the "abundant life". I know exWayfers who at 50 don't have a pot to p***s in yet claim they are an example of the "Abundant life" ! They simply must be sick because they are basically living as they did when they were stacked 4 to an apartment as WOWs. There is no progression in their lives, no advancement, nothing to show for all those years in service to TWI. Yet instead of being honest about their situation they hold onto to their SNS tapes or their PFAL syllabus and accuse others of having a problem or a devil spirit and so on. But where is the abundance ? Where is the health ? "working the blue book" won't get you either. And serving the memory of VPW is not going to bring back the "Good ole days" or one's youth. Wake up and be an individual with your own goals and ideas. Its far more satisfying and pleasing in the eyes of God than following the ghost of some rogue preacher who stole from others and lied pathologically to his congregation as he profited financially from the hard work of optimistic, energetic youth who wanted to make a difference. VPW was dirt.. the worst kind.

I had done the SIT think prior to my days with TWI. In fact when I took PFAL I was asked to suppress this information from the other students and ,at session 12, behave as if it was my first time. I did not comply with those requests and talked openly about it to another student. Nothing happened though I was asked to talk about what materials I had used to gain a knowledge of SIT and when I told them it had been a group of roaming christians I got the hairy eyeball and someone questioned whether or not my "tongues" were authentic. I recall at session 12 that they listened intently to verify the authenticity of my "tongues". I guess they were satisfied.

Well I've always felt that they now like to play up the concept that those remaining in TWI are "the best of the best" and its only now in Way history that its down to "real" believers. Basically way leaders bulls***t around the huge loss of membership as if it were all part of some grand plan (and God's) to burn the chaff and dump the dead wood. To a hard core wayfer this is music since it appeals to their need to be one of the "chosen few". Of course some use the term "koolaid drinker" to describe such people. The Way knows that it has peaked though they have made plenty of money so its not like they are hurting at this point so they can afford to behave as if the massive loss of people means nothing to them but we all know (As do they) that it is a major source of irritation since they aren't expanding as they should be. It goes against all their teachings about growth and expansion. But of course Way leaders never worried themselves about explaining signficant inconsistenices in Way teaching and actual behavior since they basically tell their followers what they should be thinking, when, and how. In terms of growth there is very little fruit at TWI and what little there is , is very sour and tainted.

Its hardly a surprise that even a simple,basic inquiry about a specific splinter would spawn a more general discussion about the efficacy of Way offshoots. After all these groups are first generation derivatives of TWI so what thinking ex-Way person would not wonder if stepping into a relationship with one of these groups is a wise thing to do. One shouldn't expect the forum to suspend discussions on CFF or any other Way derivative simply because an offshoot participant feels that its demeaning or insulting to do so. (This reminds me of the Wierwille loyalist who seeks to stop critical discussions of VPW on the basis that its rude to speak ill of the dead). If a person wants to "fellowship" with XYZ Way offshoot then have it it but don't be surprised or offended if not everyone thinks highly of the group or posts with questions about the general appeal of the group. There are people here who do find some good in them and I'm sure they will kick in their 2 cents to reflect their experience but in general I don't find them seeking to block meaningful exchange on the purpose of the offshoots. In my view (speaking ONLY for myself at this point ) - I think that anything that is derivative of TWI is not for me so I don't need to go to each group to see if they are "right on" or "tapped in" or "working the word". TWI for me had massive problems in many different areas including the general behavior and attitudes that existed. So the various cosmetic "fixups" , minor adjustments, and "errata" that each splinter might have applied to and issued against various points of Way theology could never be enough to make Way teachings appealing since the bulk of the foundational material was stolen from other sources yet there are so many who still refuse to acknowlwedge that. Furthermore I've spoken with splinter members and I still observe the attitudes of entitlement and arrogance that was so characteristic of TWI mindset that no church other than your group is valid. I'm aware of least one splinter that thinks all others are counterfeits so the dysfunction of the parent is now in the child. No thanks. I don't want to be in the vicinity of that poisonous thinking. Some of the people who run the splinters were total P***ks while in TWI and have yet to issue even miminal apologies to people they hurt yet they expect people to support them as full time clergy so they can continue to exist as they did while in TWI ? It seems to me that if anything its the obligation of the splinter group to make a strong and convincing case that they are sufficiently different from TWI to warrant a closer look. After all they need me (more specifically my money) a great deal more than I need them. They should be reaching out, cutting your grass, babysitting your children, cooking your meals becaues God knows they got that tons of that type of free labor from many here. But you won't get apologies or acknowledgements of wrong doing from leaders who are so far down the wrong road that they think if they stay on it long enough it'll intersect with the right road. So on a human level these groups and their leaders have a lot of owning up to do. Just because they left TWI or were M&Aed or doesn't mean that the reset button has been pushed and that the influences and attitudes of TWI just disappeared. Highly unlikely.

Perhaps there will be some podcast discussions on TWI ?