diazbro

TheMex said: << no drugs, no alcohol, no homos, no Coca Cola, no sex outside marriage, no Playboy, no porno, no table dance >> Wow. Nobody knows how to have fun anymore !! : :D I had heard Romans 10:9-10 prior to my Way exerperience and many mainstream churches also used these verses to illustrate the necessary requirements for one to receive salvation. So Romans 10:9-10 is not unique to TWI's teachin on salvation. Those with no significant exposure to christian teaching prior to their Way initiation frequently assume ,(incorrectly), that Romans 10:9 is something taught exclusively by TWI. Depending on the denomination there might also be references to confessing one's unworthiness or state as a sinner but I've never heard any church oppose Romans 10:9-10 whereas TWI attempted to make it seem that mainstream churches specifically avoided these verses (typically as a result of being demonically influenced) so I was taught that many people who professed to be christian were not because they didn't specifially acknowledge Romans 10:9-10 as part of their salvation process. Of course SIT was put forth as proof of one's salvation though I never heard , even in TWI, that absence of SIT meant absence of salvation. Thus it was allowed that some people could be believers yet not SIT. But there was a pretty hard line about Romans 10:9 - if someone hadn't particular knowledge of those verses then TWI philosophy was that there these people were most likely not born again. It got worse of course. There were people in TWI who professed a particular aptitude for being able to discern if someone was truly born again or not. I knew plenty of Way people who thought like this and they would claim to operate the manifestations to best determine who to speak with when witnessing. On the other hand the whole goal of witnessing was to sign up people (born again or not) for PFAL so this is where TWI greatly differed from most churches. Most mainstream churches and missions want to "save your soul", TWI wants you to take PFAL (all three of them), the supporting classes, go WOW, and Corps.

There simply cannot be enough said about how VPW appropriated the works of others and made money off them. TWI was a business and as far back as the mid 70s I was told that our goal was to promote the "word over the world" and that the best way to accomplish that was "run classes, run classes, run classes". There was no ambiguity about this. Going WOW of course was a great way for TWI to get an energetic, mobile, cost free resource to push PFAL. Great business model. You have tireless salesmen working for nothing so all monies are profit. TWI never sponsored missions, fed the homeless, set up shelters, or tried to improve the community. Most REAL churches have a natural interest in helping people even those who are very down and out but not TWI. We were taught that "unbelievers" are "corpses" even our own blood family relations were characterized as such especially so if they didn't want to participate in TWI lifestyle. TWI never demonstrated compassion or even minimal towards humanity in general. They isolated themselves and set themselves apart from all other forms of worship and took a horribly dim view of anyone wanting to maintain even minimal ties to their religious heritage. The interesting thing is that you do still have very hardcore admirers of VPW as if his death emptied all that was good and pure from TWI (Though I think that happened once VPW consolidated his power by taking over Way West). In many ways these staunch supporters are like any religious fanatic who will hear no criticisms of the great leader and its often impossible to get them see it any other way. One thing I've noticed about most VPW hardcores is that they have very little exposure to the bible and the concept of christianity prior to their Way experience. So TWI was their entree into the world of Jesus, salvation, and deliverance. They are like a young kid who gets his driver's license and his dad gives him a broken down VW as a starter car. At first The kid thinks its just the best thing in the world; however, for the average kid, he starts to notice that there are perhaps better cars out there and when the VW dies, he moves on. But in the rare case , the kid still looks at that first VW as if it was the "one and only" even after it just broke down one day. They still pine for it and will claim that it was "The best running thing I ever had" even when everyone else knows it was just a hand-me-down car. They confuse things and let nostalgia and romanticism of a different time get in the way of reality. Well corny car comparisons aside this still accurately reflects the fanatical determination that some have to preserving the idea that VPW was "The Teacher" who saw "snow" and was here to "teach the word like it hadn't been since the first century". In reality there aren't that many who feel this way but given their loud support of VPW it is sometimes easy to get the idea that there are more of them. Whenever I talk to people who still pine for the "good ole days" its interesting that they don't normally mention VPW or other Way leaders as being important to the good times they had. They always mention other people like themselves - well meaning, young, energetic people who wanted to make a difference. Yet for some reason they confuse these friendships as being validating of TWI. Its my claim that those poeple were good people no matter what church they went to . And give those people the credit for doing good NOT VPW or TWI. Give credit it where it is due.

Oh John you set up the most bizarre situation to justify your views on violence against women. Your early post on this topic (in the Yates thread) related specifically to "swatting the fly" as if a woman complaining in the home deserves that kind of behavior. So you are now trying to act like that wasn't what you meant. Instead you desribe some exceptional situation you witnessed during your illustrious fast food career which evidently made quite an impression on you so now you are apparently ready for violence against women at a moment's notice. You can never predict when a woman will try yo run you over now can you John ? Happens at least 100 times a day ? I dont know John maybe you have a reason to fear reprisals from your wife but aside from that you are just using an exceptional situation to justify your mysogny and we both know it. Just as you did with some of the racial incidents you described in previous threads. The point here you want to be recognized as the valid substitute for the absent Wierwille. Did you get a vision John ? Were you at the gas pumps one day and it started to snow and then Vic descended from above with his coffee cup of drambuie (which he spilled on poor Tic's head), and said "John, My heart is heavy Son, No one wants to carry on my legacy so will you do it ? Thanks. And oh by the way watch out for women trying to run you over in the parking lot". Was that how it went John ? Lastly John, I have no idea what you mean here: ""I often marvel how the most adamant, self appointed experts on child raising always seem to be people who have no kids of their own. And here you are...telling me all about relationship ettiquette when you have no relationship of your own. At least, not one you're not too ashamed of to ever refer to." At what point was advice submitted on "child raising [sic]" ? Are the seams starting to burst John ? Will I soon "burn in the lake of fire" as you once said I would ? Save me John. Save me brother.

Well the reality here is that John advocates the use of physical violence against women to resolve domestic problems yet he wishes to be acknowledged as a christian. But it simply is not possible for one to be an advocate of violence against women (under ANY circumstance) and also be called a christian. Don't forget that he feels this way. He has been presented with numerous opportunities to deal with this but he doesn't. Nor does he wish to deal with racial issues except to talk about how "sick and tired" he is about minority advancement. The last time he was confronted , he disappeared for a few months thinking that it would blow over and now he has re-emerged. The funny thing is that he will eventuallly blow his top. He always does.

Oh man this is so lame. What exactly does this even mean ? Seems to me that so many VPW/ PFAL addicts continue to whine on about these types of things as if merely mentioning "the hope of glory" earns brownie points from God . There are too many arm chair christians already so now your invocation of some VPW phrase is supposed to makeup for your lack of practical action as a REAL christian. From what I can see, the Way trained "christian" is primarily motivated by how many rewards he can obtain at the "bema". Concerns about humanity and easing human sufferring are non-existent. Are you going to be posting PFAL phrase by phrase ? I wouldn't be surprised since every time someone pins you down on something (e.g. your worship of VPW) you run for cover and ignore the post.

I notice that during the MArk And Avoid era how those Way leaders didn't forgive followers for the alleged offenses they accomplished against the "one , true ministry". Leaders gave many hardworking, dedicated people the boot and for what ? Seems to me that even if these followers had done something so heinous and wrong that the "christian thing to do" would have been to forgive them but no, Way leaders would not. What do you have to say about that ? You apply a different standard to the might Way leaders and your hero VPW but judge the rank and file differently. Actually those so called "men and women of god" are treacherous and vile since in many cases, concocted stories to justify kicking people out of TWI. I recall TWI teaching that the most viscious devlil spirits could be found in religious organizations which allege to have unique access to God - sounds to me like TWI is a good fit. But back to the question ... Why are Way leaders exempt from the requirement to forgive people ? Why couldn't they forgive people that they left out in the cold ? Where is the "christian behavior" in that ? Oh right. Way leaders are special. They talk the talk but aren't responsible for to walking the walk Also OM there are indeed bible verses about deceptive leaders and pharisees that apply really well to VPW but I don't see you posting those verses. Maybe you would like for me to do that ? You post only those which are convenient to your point of view. You behave as if you are christian which I don't think you are. You are a VPW loyalist for sure and in my experience the more dedicated one is to preserving the VPW legacy, the least likely he or she is to exhibit the qualities commonly associated with christianity. Lastly Mr. Biblical Scholar, Take a gander at Mathew 5:20- For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. Oh so looks like the Pharisees and "teachers of the law" won't be getting into the kingdom of heaven so looks to me like those who propound legalism and who would try to use their PFAL status as some lame "get into heaven free" pass will be left out in the cold. TWI, VPW, has never helped the surrounding community, never fed the homeless, never accomplished a true mission, never built a village, ministered to the sick, never setup a shelter. Thats christianity in action. Sitting around talking about devil spriits and homos isn't it.

Absoltuely the choice is mine. Nothing in those verses says that there isn't a process of healing before something like that can take place. Seems to me that the wrongdoers are always the ones who preach "forgive and forget" as if it MUST be given upon demand. Do it when the time is right. Besides I notice you so wilingly forgive VPW yet you won't forgive anyone who questions his unethical, deceptive, and abusive behavior. Only those with a guilty conscience are desperate for forgiveness. So OM why are you so desperate for forgiveness ?

Speaking in general. I've always noticed that former way leaders are always so into the "forgive and forget" mentaility most likely because they fear reprisals from people they have mistreated. I recall one former leader who used to go around talking to people going "hey I was just doing what I was told, I'm with you , I was misled also". No that is a lie and they know it but they preach "forgive and forget" to try to get the account all squared up so THEY don't have to worry about things. A variation on this concept is the "just get over it" approach wherein they try to bully people into stop making references to very real problems in TWI. These people are just very eager for you to forget how badly leaders treated people just so they can rest easy. But trying to talk someone into "forgiving" before they are ready is selfish which of course is a hallmark of the Way leader. I say let God do the forgiving , he is much better at it than any human. Besides, I'll be the one to decide when its time to forgive someone. Anyone who tries to negotiate forgiveness from someone else is clearly sufferring from a guilty conscience. Don't let an arrogant way leader (past or present) attempt to beguile you of your own healing timeline which is something that cannot be fast-tracked - especially to satisfy the needs of a a guilty person who seems so desperate for it. Forgive ONLY when the time is right else it will not be genuine and very little will have been accomplished. Lots of way leaders and those who perpetrated wrong on their fellow believers are very anxious to be fogiven (at least those who have a working conscience do) because they are acutely aware of how badly they treated others. Of course some , such as LCM, will never admit to doing anything wrong, ever and will always seek to blame their own misfotune on others.

John, John, I don' t know about listing your sins. You aren't so interesting as to warrant that much effort though you do love attention even if its of the negative kind. You don't possess even basic respect for women necessary to discuss issues such as marital morality much less christian behavior. (You also have a very real problem with race but lets just keep that one on the backburner for now). So please don't attempt to discuss biblical view points on marriage when you feel its acceptable to resort to physical violence to resolve domestic arguements. I guess because Clint Eastwood did it in a movie then it makes it alright ? Or was it Paul Newman ? How comforting it is to know you look to Hollywood to validate your mysogyny. What's missing in your life John ? You want your own ministry don't you ? Is that it ? You want to call the shots ? Be like VPW ? You can be honest here.

Lets keep in mind that John has an attitude that feels that it is acceptable to "clock women" should they complain too much. He compares this activity to "swatting the fly". So bothersome women should be clocked and they are like flies at least in the world of John. He respects cinematic rerpresentations of this type of behavior and seems to confuse hollywood with reality (see below). The following quotes are his from the "Yates Conviction Overturned" thread. John if you want to talk about what is right and wrong lets first talk about why you think its right to "clock women". I don't think you are qualified to talk about any other issues until you clear this up. I notice you disappeared for quite a while before returning to the board but the issue hasn't gone away. This is VERY serious stuff and if you REALLY believe any of this you should seek help. johniam said: >> "If a fly or mosquito buzzed in your ear for several seconds at a time you'd probably swat at it involuntarily until it stopped. That's not violent or abusive, it's merely being human and needing your space. I personally believe that 90% of so called domestic violence cases are initiated by the woman. They get emotional, they don't know or care when to shut up, they keep verbally hammering away at that man non stop, driving him up a wall.......the only defense that man has is to either flee his own house, or clock her like she deserves. But how convenient it's illegal for him to do that. So he stews for awhile until he can't take it anymore and then "swats the fly" and gets put in jail. Who will dare hold the woman responsible for causing this? I cannot think of more respected actors today than Paul Newman and Clint Eastwood. Each has long been able to accept or reject any part of any script submitted to them. Yet both men have movies where their characters hit women. Eastwood did it in both "The Gauntlet" (1977) and "Sudden Impact" (1981). Newman did it in "The Verdict" (1982). >> So John when you watch movies do you sit there waiting for the "woman clocking" scene ? Does that "make your day" ?

Okay you are correct. It was top of the world. So I'll get MY quoting right. Also neither do I think it was intentional but I don't think that any of us want to be misconstrued as saying something that we know we didn't especially if we are talking about something as serious as nuclear weaponry. I never mentioned anything about nukes and I would like him to edit his post to reflect that. It says "Per diazbro":

Get the quoting right topoftheworld. I NEVER said that TWI had an interest in obtaining nuclear weapons. JKBoheme quoted a post of mine and used it as a basis for discussing TWI's interest in weapons but my post mentioned NOTHING about nukes.

Reading through this thread I note that many of us talk about the alleged, attempted overthrow of the US government. This is a prime example of how Way teachings were verbally communicated perhaps so TWI could never be held accountable for it at some future time. I point this out only because during Waydale and Gspot there have been people who have *vehemently* denied the whole conspiracy thing took place because it was never documented in writing. (They say things like "Show me where it was written and I'll believe it"). The odd thing is that most of the people making such denials were in fact active Way members at that time so I'm not sure what investment they are trying to protect by claiming it didn't happen. Of course one sees this form of denial a lot less these days on the forums but there are people who do continue to seek ways to justify and rationalize VPW's behavior even if it means attempting to change history or deny that certain things happened. I also place into this category the teaching that aggressive witnessing would hasten the return of christ. That was never written down either (to the best of my knowledge) yet some people deny that such an idea was ever promoted even though the bulk of people I encounter from that time know damn well that it was. There are other examples of this type of thing but these two come to mind since I've seen both mentioned here in the thread. Speaking more generally. Even more disturbing were attempts to marginalize those posting their accounts of firsthand abuse by saying "Well I was in TWI for a long time and I never saw of heard of anything like that happening. Are you sure that perhaps you aren't confusing things or maybe embellishing things ? Where were you ? I knew Reverened so and so and he would NEVER do anything like you describe. And I was at HQ so I'm certain if something like that was happening I would have known about it". Oh great. We all know the whole "lock box" thing and how like 10 people could see something happen only to be told to put it in the lock box so thereafter everyone denied that something even happened. This is the damaging thing about some folks who are still invested in TWI even if they long ago left. They still are protecting TWI and its leaders by perpetuating myths and denials about things. Again. I don't see it that much anymore but it was standard behavior at Waydale and the early days of Gspot.

I have always viewed the various splinter groups as excellent decompression chambers for those seeking a cushioned transition from TWI into "normal life". The splinter can help provide something of a support community though its clear that some remain and are happy to do so. On the other hand my own (admittedly informal) survey of people I've know who have attended splinters reveals that most eventually leave or drastically diminish the time spent with a local splinter. Obviously some people like to stay so perhaps they can contribute their point of view as to why its appealing.

Agreed. I always had a problem with this phrase even when I first heard it because it suggests that "the word" is not strong enough on its own to be of appeal to anyone. No , it takes a Way "amabassador" to make it "real" to someone else. So its like the bible is secondary much in the same way Jesus Christ was made secondary when they came up with that "absent Christ" concept. The goal of TWI has always been to make itself more essential than the bible. If you look at their website on the "research" page there is a picture there which illustrates this idea magnificently. It might be helpful to load up the pic at this point. Anyway the bible is to the left of a legal pad with a concordance to the right of that. But most prominent of all in the pic are Way (or Way approvded) publications that tell the follower what the bible "Really" means. But the legal pad is the mind blower. Thats what you use to write down all that "hot present truth" which tells us that TWI wants to verbally convey the "truth" and have us accept it as reality. Then we are to look back to the publications and books and then *maybe* pick up that bible thats over on the left. Note that the lamp is over the ooncordance and NOT the Bible. This picture says it all. The Bible is a secondary book for TWI. They sure talk about it a lot and bring out verses but they don't want you to read the bible or enjoy it without first using their filters (verbal teaching and publications) so you will get out of the bible what they want you to.

It used to be that every six months or so that someone would post something along the lines of "gee , there isn't anything new here anymore so why should I continue to come here ?". This behavior actually started on Waydale though at that time there was still a fair amount of interesting, "insider" information being posted since TWI had yet to take seriously the internet forums. They had initially attempted to dismiss Waydale , then they forbade innies from reading, and then they assigned their suckups to read it. And then we know that they liked to distribute false information in specific geographic areas to see if it showed up on the forums so they could "smoke out" traitors and opponents of the "one true ministry". So over time we saw less and less information because of this but also because people were leaving - thus it is understandable that the "insider information" was drying up. I recall some people complaining about it as if these forums were supposed to serve as some type of gossip column for TWI. In my view its a bit immature to think that these forums are here to entertain and dazzle as if this is the national enquirer of the Way cult world. If someone is complaining about this aspect of it (not enough "insider info") then maybe they should take it upon themselves to find some and stop bugging the forum. This is a record of people's experiences with TWI. While one post might be terribly boring to one person , it could be EXACTLY what someone else needed so have some patience. I've always felt certain that the larger part of the readership at Gspot are lurkers who never post. This includes WayGB and innies who are contemplating a departure. IT also includes many ex-Way who just don't want to be recognized or don't want to take the trip down memory lane so they are content to benefit from the information being posted albeit in a passive fashion. Fair enough. Frankly I think there is such a thing as posting too much but perhaps if I had more time I would post more. Its also important to remember that we are not all at the station in life as another. Nor did we all leave TWI at the same time. Some are still trying to figure out what happened in TWI while others have long since moved on. The point is that just because someone is "over it" doesn't mean that another should be too. Thats a huge assumption I see being made though less frequently these days than in the early days of Gspot and on Waydale. Plus many people don't have lots of time to digest all the information on this site. I know I haven't. Some people do seem to spend a great deal of time here so if the material seems dry or not so fresh please understand that for many of us there is too much to wade though and we are getting there in our own time at our own pace. Also it might also be the case that we reach different conclusions so be prepared for that. There is no requirement to be "like minded" in our lives after TWI so its a sure bet that lots of people will have their own ideas about their time with TWI and Gspot is a place for that type of information. I think its a good place and it needs to be here. In my mind even if TWI were to completely cease operations today, then Gspot would still need to remain because lots of people have yet to find this place. There are also others who do know its here but they simply aren't ready to start the rehabilitation process or start looking at all thats here so when they are, its here. TWI experience was very damaging for many people so having a place like this is important.

Lets see. Here is what is on my portable music thing (in no certain order or preference) David Axelrod - The Capitol Years ( producer for Lou Rawls and Cannon Ball Adderley who also wrote his own stuff - even released something under the Electric Prunes moniker "Mass in F-minor" Sly&Robbie - Famous Reggae Rhythm Section who has backed many famous artists The Brazillian Girls - Very sexy music (Note: There are no brazillians in the group but there is an argentinian) Carla Bruni - More sexy music Tommy Bolin - Guitar slinger type Klute - "No ones listening anymore" Kraftwerk - Music from Tour De France Aphex Twin - "Druqs", "Come To Daddy" Keith JArret - "The Koln Concert" Soundtrak to the movie "Ocean's Eleven" Caetano Velhoso - Live in Bahia Alice Cooper - Billion Dollar Babies Tour DVD Cirque Du Soliel - Varrekai Curtis Mayfeild - "Curtis Live" Tricky - Maxinquaye Massive Attack - Mezzanine Buena Vista Social Club - (Ry Cooder introduces the World to some great Cuban musicians) Bela Fleck and the Flectones

Well speaking of intelligent design. I've always felt that had god been opposed to the idea of human masturbation he would have made our arms much shorter.

Sorry but as far as I'm concerned you are still running for cover. I find in you a form of (perhaps willful) ignorance which characterizes the person who is so happy to find an oasis that he mistakes it for paradise never realizing that he can move on and find a better station in life. You are stuck in the infatuation phase that most of us had when we first encountered TWI. You are like the teenager who never got over the crush. Or perhaps you have made such a strong investment in TWI, PFAL or perhaps VPW that you feel that it would be dishonorable to back down from your tenacious support of concepts and ideas that most have found to be useful but only to maintain that romantic attachment to their youthful days with TWI. But I've also considered , more recently, that you simply enjoy the attention (albeit negative) you receive from championing the VPW legacy. The anti-hero. You enjoy the infamy that comes with being a slavish supporter of the VPW legacy. At least in Gspot you have a level of attention that I suspect you might be missing in real time. I also suspect that instead of addressing the earlier statements I've made you will respond to what I just said in mock indignance, simply to misdirect and to avoid having to discuss VPW's total lack of academic credibilty, his intellectual theft as well as the complete lack of practicality in the so called Law Of Believing that even VPW could not operate to spare himself from a disease for which other believers where denigrated for having. Some "teacher" you have there.

Oldiesman Of course I notice you totally avoid the topics concerning the plagiarized material (RTHS) and do not want to deal with VPW's theft of those ideas (and words). Nor do you wish to discuss the failure of the Law of Believing which is the foundation of the foundational class. No sir. You always misdirect and run for cover so I'm still waiting for an answer on these topics. Your hero is a zero who ripped off the works of others and passed it off as his own and made money. Deal with that ! Don't run. Don't avoid. Deal wit this information and tell me how one with concern for ehtical and moral behavior can reasonably dismiss this. Now onto your attempts to misdirect - Man I heard Romans 10:9-10 only like 10 years before I ever heard of TWI and my grandmother used to discuss this verse so what you posted was nothing new or astonishing. The fact that it was something new to you isn't my problem. VPW talks about Romans 10:9 ? Lots of people did and it wasn't ANYTHING new when I heard it. Just because you didn't read the bible before joinging TWI doesn't mean I didn't

Oldiesman said: >> Much of PFAL contains established truths already revealed from The Comforter, because it contains established truths from the God Breathed Word first revealed to the holy men of God of the First Century, which truths are still being taught by men today. >> So you say and you say it on the authority of a plagiarist. The so called Law of Believing from Session One of the Foundational class simply does not work and , furthermore, was a concept appropriated from 50s pop pyschology (Peale, Carengie, Nightingale, Maltz), which at that time was used primarily to motivate salesmen. The LOB was VPW's attempt to graft motivational pep talk onto the Bible. It was flawed then and it is flawed now and the LOB was the foundation of the Foundational class so what does one make of the rest of it ? Its a hodgepodge of various ideas with a large part of the RTHS content which we know was stolen. Again, no one can even say that which was stolen was even that "right on" so I don't know why you keep claiming that it was. Oldiesman said: << I think his shortcomings are irrelevant to this discussion. << Oh well I'm sure you do because it lets you conveniently avoid having to discuss the lack of character exhibited by VPW as well as his unethical bheavior, and tendency to steal material and pass it off as his own. Speaking in general here, I think it was Raf who said something to the effect of isn't it odd how people have an excellent memory for centuries old crimes of the Catholic church yet seem to forget about decades old problems with VPW's behavior and "practices" ?

I met some nice people while I was in though I am quick to give those people the credit for that, not TWI. There were some cool people who were trying to make a difference. They would have been doing it under any circumstance. I point this out because some people , if they met even one nice person while in TWI, want to give TWI total credit for that. "God led me to this place to meet such a great person". Chances are that person was great to begin with.

A few things..... In my mind, VPW should be called "The Stealer" instead of "The Teacher". Why some people worship that guy is beyond me. People tolerate behavior in VPW that they wouldn't even begin to tolerate in themselves, their family, or friends. A thief is a thief is a thief. It doesn't matter what he steals (an idea, a melody, a passage in a book, a whole book, a watermelon, money, electricty, a standup comedy routine, a shirt from the dryer, etc). VPW stole his material from someone else. He didn't "borrow" it, he didn't license it , he didn't ask permission, he took text without asking, passed it off as his own, and made money from it. Therefore he is a thief. VPW IS A THIEF ! Also what he stole are the works of other men so its not like he broke into some DaVinci Code type hiding place and took the "originals" (I wish you could see it in the original kids - Sure Vic, I wish you could have seen it too). VPW's theft was dead wrong but what I'm pointing out is that who the heck ever said that what he stole was "god breathed" ? He copped material that was out of the mainstream with the hopes that no one would ever notice. Okay so lastly, VPW bought his Phd from a diploma mill so he never earned his Phd nor did he do the research necessary to get it. Like most men eager to take the fast track to credibility he took shortcuts which would have gotten him expelled from *any* legitamate institution of higher learning. The fact that a person (or two here in this thread) don't like this is irrelevant.

I cannot provide an answer to your question however I can say that back in 77 we had a branch meeting scheduled right around the time of easter. The expectations were that the ocal guy would speak but I was made prviy that we would have a "last minute, special teacher" that evening and it turned out to be RFR. I must say that her teaching was about as vanilla as they come and the content was the typical blasting of the concept of easter and how mainstream christianity is way off the mark and most likely possessed - blah, blah,blah,etc. I fell aleep during her teaching and when I woke up she was still droning on with the standard Way line. In any case it was one of the most boring Way teachings I've ever experienced. She has absolutely , at least at that time, NO public speaking skills and has a total lack of charsima or appeal so why she is at the top is anyone's guess. Though I don't think it was at all intentional for her to be the Prez. I mean they didn't count on LCM getting sued for his licentious activity (of which Rose knew) so she somehow defaulted. But she has absolutely no obvious leadership qualities at all.

I never had a personal awareness of CG except as it related to the POP and even that information was related to me by people who were still in . (I had long since ceased attending Way functions by that time). I was still friends with people who still had a major investment in TWI lifestyle so I got to vicariously experience the confusion and resulting schism which took place. Since I wasn't a stakeholder in that process and was detached, it looked to me like a classic coup situation though it was never clear to me (or my friends who were still in) if it was successful. However, it definitely polarized the so called "ministry" and I was told many things by people on both sides of the arguement all of which seemed to be purely emotionally based. That is , if someone liked their current situation at that time they resisted the characterizations that CG detailed in POP. If someone didn't like their current situation within TWI , they sided with CG but not out of any sense of loyalty to CG but just to reject the current administration and LCM. The whole thing appeared to me as being messy, unorganized, and the result of two ego driven men arguing over the vestiges of an organization that was built under VPW. Both saw the tremendous value (as in $$$) in being the head of that setup and neither wanted share it so its of little suprise that something like that happened. BUT it was a huge surprise to me that more people at that time didn't start seeing TWI for the sham that it was. For me that was a maasive disappointment and after that I had a very difficult time respecting anyone who still wanted to remain in TWI or the various offshoots. I realize that this might alienate people who did remain but I must put this out there. because to me this bickering and power struggling made it extremely clear that TWI was all about power and money. So to me it is somewhat irrelevant to consider who of the two was better. They were both underlings seeking to claim the empty thone as their own. I did know of LCM and I left TWI as a result of this appointment as president. I couldn't handle it. He was an idiot before he was president and it only got worse afterwards. I'm not sure who out there actually believes that he was actually okay before he became president but he was very lucky to get the gig. He was uncultured and insecure and sought to compensate by cultivating an in-your-face approach. And the fact that CG had difficulty getting LCM booted tells me that CG was probably about as inept as was LCM. Maybe he thought it would be childs play to get TWI trustees to bow to his "truth" but it didn't work out like that at all. I guess arrogance does blind people and it definitely blinded both of those guys.