diazbro

Does anyone know who has traditionally been charged with the responsibilty of coming up with these themes or has it been a variety of people ? Back in the day it appeared that VPW was the one who was coming up with various concepts (america awakes) but given that he had no problems taking credit for the works of others I wouldn't be surprised if someone else came up with the idea. Now I'm not at all saying that these various themes are great or even good but I'm curious who on staff gets "the revelation" to determine the annual theme.

Frey admits to even more extensive fabrications and lies. Recall that upon the breaking of the newstory he denied ALL allegations that he lied, embellished, or fabricated. Two days after he admits to "some" embellishment. As time goes it looks like almost nothing in his book was true - certainly anything of a sensational nature. He says "`I altered events all the way through the book,''. This is much, much different from his earlier claims of modest embellishment. At this point I wonder if this guy ever even had an addiction problem. See the following link and excerpt from it http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews...ip/13772434.htm Posted on Thu, Feb. 02, 2006 Author explains that lies in book made a better story James Frey on Wednesday offered the first detailed explanation of why he embellished and lied about events in ``A Million Little Pieces,'' his best-selling book: It made a better story. ``I wanted the stories in the book to ebb and flow, to have dramatic arcs, to have the tension that all great stories require,'' Frey said in an author's note released Wednesday that will be included in future editions of the book. ``I altered events all the way through the book,'' he added. On Jan. 26, Frey appeared on Oprah Winfrey's show and under her questioning, admitted to extensive fabrications. In his author's note, a three-page essay titled ``a note to the reader,'' Frey also said that officials at the rehab facility where he was treated had previously questioned his account of having a root canal procedure without anesthesia. Other events that Frey had previously defended as true but which, according to the statement, were invented, include ``my role in a train accident that killed a girl from my school.'' Overall, his portrayal in ``A Million Little Pieces,'' is of a person who ``I created in my mind to help me cope'' with drug addiction and recovery. The events and details were invented, he said, ``in order to serve what I felt was the greater purpose of the book,'' specifically to ``detail the fight addicts and alcoholics experience in their minds and in their bodies, and detail why that fight is difficult to win.'' ``I sincerely apologize to those readers who have been disappointed by my actions,'' he said.

If I were to setup a Twig , home felllowship, kind of thing I would respect the individual's right to worship privately without the need to demonstrate to others that he or she is following the prescribed path to enlightenment. Seems to me that while in TWI there was never any time to "listen to God" for all the yelling going on and the endless amounts of busy work assigned to keep you from thinking about how much time you were wasting. I wouldn't assume that all other forms of fellowship are inferior or somehow "of the devil" just because those people don't want to come to my fellowship. I wouldn't keep track of attendance nor would I make others responsible for giving a ride to someone unless I was prepared to do it myself. That is attendance is optional and if you don't want to come then don't and no one should ask you why you made that decision. We would talk about whatever we wanted to and would diaglogue openly with no concern for contradicting the party line - well there wouldn't be a party line and we wouldn't rely upon anyone one organization, denomination, book, or class for "the word". I wouldn't ask for a red cent nor would I expect anyone to volunteer any money. If someone wants to bring cookies okay. Bring them if you wish but there are no assigned refreshment duties. No tapes to buy, no books to buy, no classes to fund, no supplies or hymnals. If we sing we use our memories or someone xeroxes lyrics. In terms of what we would teach or study it would be a variety of materials from many sources INCLUDING MAJOR DENOMINATIONS ! We would NOT pretend to be Greek or Aramaic scholars capable of distingusihing subtleties in phrases and words that we seek to manipulate to match up with some pre-conveived idea or opinion we are trying to advance. We would readily accept that men and women much, much smarter than ourselves have debated various christian concepts through the centuries (trinity, salvation, tongues, etc) without converging on a unified approach. So we don't have to reconcile all the loose ends in christianity in an attempt to make ourselves look smarter than we are (like we could). Anyone attending my fellowship would have to be comfortable with going away with NOT having all the answers and also that others within your fellowship might NOT share your views on a given area of the bible. You would need to respect that and value what the other had. Its also quite possible that if we all concluded we had had a rough week then we might in fact go to the local tavern and drink beer instead. Respecting the fact that not everyone wants to drink then we might pick a more general form of entertainment but the concept of felllowship involves many ideas above and beyond simply reading the bible or some passage we are trying to dissect to arrive at some mystical meaning. If it ever became apparent that the fellowship was not progressing or people were disinterested in continuing then we would pull the plug on it without hesistation and , if the desire later re-emerged, would re-convene. None of this would be construed as being a "faulure" or the result of "the adversary". It would be in recognition of the fact that God expects us to give priority to our families and children above some concocted family or artificial construct that presumably would get us more "rewards" at "the bema".

Oprah to Author, "You conned us all" http://www.cnn.com/2006/SHOWBIZ/books/01/2...frey/index.html Again I point out that at the beginning of the situation Frey categorically denied any and all embellishment or fabrications. A mere 2 days later on Larry King he admits to limited episodes of embellishment and attempts to place himself in the company of literary giants such as Hemingway and Faulkner. Oprah calls to offer her support which on Thursday (01/26) she regrets having offerred since she herself received criticism for continued support of someone whose web of fabrication was coming untangled. I point this out because isn't it interesting how the average joe on the street reacts strongly to the idea that someone lied or misrepresented himself in a book that purported to be true in every sense. On an intuitive level people know its dead wrong for authors to deceive and this on a non-academic book. So what the heck is wrong with all the VPW supporters who make wild claims that his plagiarism was okay ?

I never heard widespread of "get honest". Perhaps it was more strongly associated with LCM's reign. I heard many times the "check up from the neck up" thing so much so that it became something of a joke which is perhaps why they developed other types of jargon. What about "tapped in" ? That used to be employed alot to point out anyone who was doing an exceptionally good job (or kissing the right a$$). "Wow. We should all be as tapped in as him". Or "once I got tapped in things starting making sense". Or "you can never be tapped in unless you take PFAL". LAter modified to include Intermediate PFAL, Advanced PFAL, WOW, Corps, DWTA, or any class they were hawking at the t ime. I'm sure there are many more examples of phrases that I've long forgotten. Can't say I want to waste too many brain cells on trying to remember them.

Oprah now distances herself from the book she once agressively promoted and helped make into a bestseller. (its about time) See http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11030647/

And I think people , as we age, might like to have a reminder of our personal history and those with an investment in TWI perhaps wish to re-experience the good feelings that might have had at one time. That they do this by perusing a class syllabus or reading an old way magazine, or listening to a tape is hardly a surprise to me nor should it be to anyone else. Its like looking at a photo album or picking up a picture of someone you used to date years ago. The "I wonder what they are doing now" question comes to mind. I always like to point out that a clear majority of the time when people take that trip down Way memory lane they are ususally thinking about *people* and how they had a good time or shared a key experience. So in fact its those people who should get the credit for improving your life not TWI. As an example. I once went to get someone out of jail and as I was waiting I met some people who turned out to be very cool folks. We joked and laughed about the circumstances and had a pretty good conversation about many topics. Well eventually our respective friends were released so we left. I kept in contact with those people and was glad to have met them. But you know what ? I don't sit there and think "Wow. Hanging out at the jail house is really cool. Look it how it improved my social circle" . No. I recognize the people for being cool and can separate that from the larger experience. Now. For some reason lots of former Way folks I meet can't make such a distinction. If they met a great person while they were in TWI they tend to give TWI credit for it and I don't understand that thinking. I met lots of great people while in TWI and they would be good folks whether or not they had ever been in TWI.

The bottom line here is had VPW or LCM actually performed signs , miracles, and wonders on par with JC then I would have gladly considered thanking them. But they had no fruit certainly as it related to healing. Besides, the biblical account is discussing JC. Not VPW or LCM so for them to place themselves in the company of JC is a bit odd. I've never known VPW or LCM to have healed anyone of anything significant let alone leprosy or any other serious disease. Sure. I've heard the stories of *miraculous" healings that involved "deliverance" from sore throats, the sniffles, a headach, or an upset stomach but that is, even if it really happened, is a far cry from the miracles described in the bible. The Way cheapened the concept of "miracle" and it seems to me that people bought it. If your junky car started and got you to twig then it was a "miracle". broke down it was because you were "out of fellowship".

And ?

Keepsakes of the way experience have varying degrees of appeal to people. For me I think its all pretty much junk but don't have a problem if others want to hold onto whatever - nametags, books, class notes, dove pins. Just don't ask me to share your enthusiasm and all will be well. I dumped my way stuff long ago except for some stuff I haven't been able to find. This happened long before the days of Ebay and if I still had that stuff I would gladly sell it to people who wanted it. One man's junk is another's treasure. Some people are compeltists and really want to collect artifacts from all eras of their lives. I hope that its this which would motivate someone to want to buy Way regalia as opposed to any residual devotion to Way teachings. I had a friend who used to have that picture of VPW sitting and drinking a cup of coffee. Its been many years but I think that is what it had. Anyway there is Vic with this self-satisfied look on his face, with a cup of drambuie (disgusied as coffee). I always thought that pic was creepy as hell. always. It would be even more creepy were I to discover that someone actually wanted to buy it.

Was thi s picture taken at an Indigo Girls concert ?

Agreed. I thought I was the only person on the planet who felt this way. Yea. It was a good story but just an average movie that got so hyped one would think that watching it was supposed to impart secret wisdom or abilities.

First. I haven't seen the movie and my post had zero to do with it - Except that it appears in a thread that is primarily assoicated with the movie. As is typically the case at Gspot , threads having to do with homosexuality tend to generate a variety of responses. Mine was such. I was citing a very real example of someone in my former neighborhood who was on a self-appointed crusade to "educate" people on the depravity of homosexuality. So he downloaded gay porn and printed it out (in high res color) and showed it to people and wanted to go over in great detail why it was all wrong. Lots of people, even some hardcore religious right types, weren't comfortable with his "shock and awe" campaign (Another neighbor called it the "c**k and awe" campagin). He was asked to stop showing his "Examples" around especially in the vicintiy of youth. He couldn't understand why people didn't want to be "enlightened" but eventually responded to some not so gentle suggestions that either he stop or be prepared to discuss with the police why he was so fond of showing color printers of porn to people - some of whom he didn't even know. Now is this guy gay ? I don't know but I've known guys like this who eventually came out of the closet which supports the ancient wisdom of "that which we so loathe in others is only because we loathe it in ourselves". I wrestled in high school and college and obviously this sport is of a high contact nature. So much so that its also the "butt" (no pun intended) of many jokes but no one got upset about it - well mostly because the typical guys making these jokes didn't want to get their tails kicked but no one on any of my teams had the "homo fear" except for maybe two over a period of 7 years. Both of those guys turned out to be gay but prior to their debut they were relentless in their tirades against gay people and sought to work in the word "fag" into every sentence. It just got to be so boring to hear and after a while it was just part of the banter. By the way. For one season we did have a wrestler who was one tough opponent and no one could pin this guy. Tough as nails. He dropped out after one season and later "came out". Thats a shame that he quit because he had the goods to take it to the olympics but he just dropped out without explanation. Of course having a vocal homophobic team mate probably didn't help. My point here is that there are plenty of people who oppose the idea of homosexuality and they seem to be able register their discontent without employing hatred, obscenity, and "examples" of various sexual acts . Those who do , in my experience, ARE struggling internally with something. It doens't mean that they are gay - it could be that someone in their family is and perhaps they simply can't accept it so they act out. But anyone who makes it a personal campaign (as if there aren't other problems in life) has problems in my opinion and experience.

I'm always at amazed at how people feed their hatred of homosexuals by seeking out examples of it. A guy in the neighborhood recently went around talking about how he loathed the existence of gay people and attempted to support his views by finding graphic examples of sexual acts between men, downloading them, and showing them to people. Interesting. Most people I know who are comfortable with their sexuality don't go Googling for gay porn and its my guess that even if they do they don't print it out on a high resolution color printer and then pass it around....unless of course they have an internal struggle and are perhaps attempting to suppress "feelings" ? I

Yea. Sounds familiar. Very familiar. My first real Twig was quite prosperous in terms of growth and most of us knew each other so before long we had a Twigful of people who were really looking to make something happen. We started out around 4 but within 6 months we had 50 people show up for one Twig so we took it outside to a nearby park. More realistically we had on average 15 -20 people for a Twig but on Family Nights we could hit the 50 mark with no problems. Since we had grown so fast we did run several PFAL classes in a very short window of time. Our local Twig leaders were just WOWS many of whom were no older than the people coming to Twig so in many ways we got along pretty well and there really wasn't much of the "I'm in control " mentality until later. Our downfall was when some visting Corps rolled through town and started correcting everyone on how they should be running a class and how we should be splitting Twigs once they reached a certain size. Of course we explained to them that we had rapid growth that no one foresaw and that we didnt' necessarily have the same number of people at each Twig. But this wouldn't do. They then started saying that if someone didn't come to Twig regularly then they aren't serious "blah blah" and so on. We ran 3 times as many PFAL classes as in ohter areas and there were no signs of things stopping until the Corps people started madating certain things and requiring certian procedures and so on. Within like 4 months these guys RUINED any and all growth in our area. People started hating coming to Twig and there was a huge morale problem. Of course the Corps people blamed it ALL on us - that we werent committed and all that jazz. So eventually some of these Corps people rotated out of the area but their influence was still very much there especially with the WOWs. One girl who previously had been a great person turned into this really dark, twisted, intense character who saw devil spirits behind everything and sought to explain the most insignificant details and problems in terms of the devil and his minions. If her mattress wasn't perfectly level she blamed "The Adversary" for trying to "rob her of a good night's sleep". And it went on and on. She routinely cast out demons from people , rooms, and even animals she thought to be at the root of say declining Twig attendance. Prior to that time I had never seen such a change in someone's behavior and it was scary to observe. I used to think that she was attractive but she walked around with this scowl on her face and it was rare to see a smile from her. I think she was perhaps acting like she thought a hardcore christian should act. But it was n't very becoming and her personality sufferred greatly. Needless to say her Twig soon lost most of its members with the few remanining members being people in her Wow family and a couple of people who lived in the same apartment complex. Over time they quit coming. I should have known something was wrong and I guess I did but I didn't bail out for a few more years mostly because I wasn't going to pursue the expected Way "progression" of taking all of the classes, going WOW, and then Corps. I went to college instead and went to Twig when I could. I had enough contacts in various Twigs that this didn't appear to be a big deal until the early 80s or so when casual Twig attendance was seen as a sign of lack of committment. It sounded so deja vu to me that I pulled the plug on my relationship with TWI. No one really ever conronted me about it - but I had heard that a Corps guy speak and he was blabbing on about people being "dead wood" and if they didn't progress then they were worthless to the ministry and stuff like that. I didn't need anyone to tell me that he was including people like me in his little speech. We had lots of people who had a life outside of TWI and wanted to keep it that way. But TWI leaders didn'tt want anyt part-timers unless you were like a celebrity or a physician, someone they could show case around - then you could came and go as you pleased and no one said anything. What hypocrisy. Any way I told a few people that I was bailing and that was it. I never went back. I still kept in contact with a few friends and we spoke about things and they would even invite me to some events but I declined.

Yea. I think you nailed it pretty well with your statement there. I do in fact believe that the guy did have substance problems so I don't think he made up that aspect of it. He just wanted to gamlorize it too much and be some kind of outlaw, romantic figure. Anyway addicts cause so much pain to other people and a standard part of the rehabilitation process requires the addict to acknowledge that. Most do but some don't. And these types , even if they are "clean" from their drug of choice, still carry around an attitude that is massively self-serving. Perhaps Frey is one such example.

Well keep in mind that his book was calculated and embellished to get that sympathy. The reality was probably not even close to the highly sensationalized accounts he put forth in the book. He had attempted to publish an earlier version of the book as fiction and its not at all clear what the differences are between the fiction vs. non-fiction versions. My point is that because he had originally approached the book as being "creative" then its for sure he developed his role deliberately to provoke responses from the reader. And that was a higher priority than stating the truth which was probaby far less exciting than the fabricated stories placed in the book. So while the story might be entertaining and even exhilirating keep the above in mind. You are reading a calculated, manufactured story that is aimed at selling books as opposed to documenting the life of an addict in a truer , albeit more boring, form.

The larger appeal of his book appers to be among the general public who don't necessarily have a substance abuse problems. They seemed to be drawn into the story which , as far as I can tell, reads like a train wreck at times. They just have to look ! Having looked into this a lot more since the news story, I've talked with many people with significant addiction history who have doubted the authenticity of Frey's story all along and not as a johnny-come-latelys to the scene. I've been able to read more excerpts of this book and it seems to me that this guy is attempting to represent himself as an addict of olympian proportions as if he was type of mega-flamboyant, in your face abuser who regularly challenged society and police in spectacular and dramatic fashion. Of course The Smoking Gun's take on this is that they can't find anyone who will support Frey's more boisterous claims and the evidence they did find show his arrests were of a fairy routine nature. In one case he was quickly bailed out because he had a case of chicken pox and the police contacted his parents to expedite the process. Wow. What a total bada$$ this guy was ! Of course he doesn't magnify this aspect of his illustrious criminal career. Even more odd are Frey's allegations of no relapses and no reliance upon recovery and support mechanisms that are common to the rehab process. Especially for someone who was so deeply and heavily immeresed (or claimed to be) in the substance abuse lifestyle. I suppose that there are always exceptions and perhaps Frey is so much stronger than the rest of the population which suffers with addiction. He could walk away from it with sheer force of will and put together intensely detailed passages of events long past hat even those with unimpaired memories would find difficult to locate in their memories. But again ,maybe he wants us to believe that he is the statistical exception but... I doubt it.. I mean Frey is now using the "sure I did it but so have other famous authors" whereas just three days ago he vehemently denied any and all embellishemnt or fabrication of any type. So even within a matter of days he has already backtracked on his original denial. I don't think this thing is over just yet. I think you will see a quiet disassociation between Oprah and this guy iniatiated primarily from her side. In any case I don't think that anyone likes a poser especially someone who claims to have "been there". Its an insult to people who have actually "been there" and know what its really like. Right now he doesn't want any of this to jeopardize his movie development deal or his screenwriting work opportunitues so I'm sure he will say and do whatver his managers are telling him to do.

One hopes that practitioners of "Creative non-fiction" would at least include a disclaimer that warned the reader that not everything is entirely true. I recall reading Jim Carrol's "Forced Entries" (his followup to the Basketball Diaries") wherein he does this very thing. Essentially he warns the reader that not all characters are real nor is the sequence of events necessarily chronologically true but he felt he needed to do these things to make the book flow better and represent a coherent work. In any case he included the discliamer so people reading the book had the benefit of this information prior to reading it. Frey's book (at least as far as I can tell) has no such discliamer and one is supposed to have the impression that everything happened exactly as he recounted it. I think that lots of people are eager to be famous and be recognized as some type of expert. Obviously the money that comes with it is nice too. One can see this in the various "blogs" out there where people are attempting to get known for writing on various topics in hopes that someone will "discover them". And since there is a lot of competition out there (Frey's book was rejected 17 times before publication) people will do whatever they have to to get the book out there even if it requires massive embellishment of the material. In my view the best written books on addiction are of the journal variety where people log entries over time. This too can obviously be faked but its a more plausible scenario for someone who is trying to get clean. As has been mentioned, Frey's accounts (I read some excerpts over at Amazon) are amazingly detailed and so vivid that one would think he has some monster photographic memory - and all this while he was in the haze of alcoholism and drugs. That would be quite a feat for him to remember all those details.

Well I'll be interested to see how this turns out. Its interesting that The Smoking Gun started looking more into this only after they were attempting to secure a mugshot of Mr. Frey (which they did) though couldn't reconcile Frey's stated details about his criminal record with those actuallly available to the public. As their website states, they can't come up with the details on record to support his claims associated with his controversial arrests. Interviews with a high school classmate don't at all support Frey's contention that he was some type of juvenille delinquent. Also interesting is that Frey attempted to publish an earlier version of his book as a work of fiction (!) and only later was it re-edited to give the "real" details. Another interesting thing about this book is the fact that Oprah has given it her stamp of approval and has had this guy on her show which is usually a guarantee that he will make many more millions (he is already quite wealthy from books sales and has movie rights activity in progress. They might adopt a "who cares" approach and claim that it "still makes an important point" but who knows. People write books all the time and many more do it for no other reason to make as much money as possible. I Frey comes out with his side of the story. Right now he had been calling it "bull&$*#"

So maybe someone should prepare a work on the "Administrations of TWI I,II, and II" and determine which were merely for our learning only and which actually apply to us..... Some people strongly feel that TWI of the 70s was some kind of Elysian fields experience and this was due to the mighty VPW and his alleged great walk with God. I think it had more to do with the youthful, dynamic, energy and interest to make a difference that most of the followers had. But for whatever reason, VPW and TWI ,instead of the hardworking , joe believer, has gotten credit for those "good ole days" and I don't really understand that. I met some great people while in TWI but they would have been great and wonderful even outside of TWI. Its the hardworking believers that should get the props.. NOT VPW.

Perhaps Roy is interested in knowing if anyone has attached particular significance to this numerical occurrence based on some Way teaching which at one time had a fascination with "numbers in scripture". I recall Bullinger's book on the topic. By the way for those interested in that , there is a free, online verion at http://philologos.org/__eb-nis/chap01.htm#15 . Note this is NOT an endorsement of it just to point out that its there. There have been different calendaring systems in use throughout the centuries so numerical conincidences are more the result of man made calendars than any divine activity or schedule. I recall once seeing a cashier total up someone's order and it came to $6.66 and the customer looked at the cashier as if she were evil and the cashier looked at the customer with the same view. I guess each thought the other was the anti-christ.

Check out this link for reference http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0104061jamesfrey1.html I haven't read this book just yet but it has certainly been on fire lately and I hear lots of people discussing it. The assertion is that Frey consicously embeliished his exerience and also fabricated situations as well as characters within his book. While I doubt that The Smoking Gun hardly represents the total truth here I am very interested in seeing this story develop and there is enough information in their side of the story to at least suggest a more comprehensive investiagation take place to determine if Mr. Frey was lying just to sell a book especially one that has made him a multi-millionaire. Why is this important ? Well it would be an example of the types of things that people do to get a book published, make money, and establish a name for themselves. Sound like anyone else you might know ? But lets see if this develops any more or if Oprah will use her lawyers to help bail Frey out of the mess.

In another thread Raf wrote: >> On top of which, I have trouble believing that someone who has no problem dredging up the centuries-old sins of the Catholic Church thinks there's somehow something unforgiving about recognizing the truth of 30-year-old sins. >> This quote was in the "Are the Dead Alive Now" was plagiarized" thread but I feel it has some application here. This statement rang very true for me. Die hard VPW supporters so readily forget VPW's problems yet cling so tenaciously to all offenses (real and imagined) of the Catholic church. Worse, many of these catholic-haters have no academic exposure to the history of the CC except that which was taught in TWI. Sure. Now some Way die-hard will google the CC and post links to entire sites detailing problems with the CC BUT they get upset that a single site such as Greasespot exists to discuss the problems of TWI which in its relatively short existence has caused a mountain of heartache. I'm sure if TWI had been around as long as the CC , there would be lots more to discuss in terms of problems but TWI has been party to lots of misey even in its short time.

One of my concerns associated with VPW's plagiarism is the assumption that some make that the material that he stole constititues "god breathed" word as if Stiles and Leonard had it all right and nothing they wrote was wrong. As far as I can tell its not a given that its necessarily "Right On" either. OBviously VPW saw some appeal to that material and format (the "class" format) so he copied and repackaged these ideas and words (without permission of course) and sold it as PFAL and RTHS... and it worked at least for the 70s and some of the 80s. A lot of money was made. But still none of this means that the works of Stiles, Leonard, Kenyon, Bullinger was necessarily "pure" or error free. I don't believe that it was. I do believe that they at least attempted to develop their points of view in a somewhat scholarly fashion (much more so than VPW) so thats fine but to assume that its "The Word and Nothing But The Word" is a real problem. Supporters of PFAL wish to dismiss VPW's illegal and unethical behavior under the premise that what he stole and presented to us was so pure and good that it doesn't matter. His sins will be washed away by his "herculean" efforts to get us access to "the word" when its still just repackaged material from other men.