diazbro

Wow. I had forgotten all about him. But he was in lots of shows even going back to the 50s. Frankly I'm amazed that he even had a publicist because I was so sure that he had been inactive for years but his imdb.com link shows he was active up until last year and he even did a voice over in a 2002 episode of The Simpsons.

Can I pipe in on the guitar talk ? I still use a stock 75 Fender Strat, cream white that I picked up for $175.00. I've done a lot of work on the fret board and have experimented with different pickup configurations but still have an affinity for the stock pickups even though the hum is there. Seymour Duncan have replacement pickups with no perceptible noise but aside from recording I find that any good noise gate can eliminate the hum. Prior to 75 I used a Les Paul Junior which was quite noisy but great for rock and even better for slide playing. Those guitars are cheap but can cut through the mix espcially with any decent amp. Marshalls were nice and the 50 watt was MORE than enough. I also played jazz gigs back in the day with a stock Fender Telecaster with a rosewood neck and almost always used the neck pickup exclusively to avoid the trebly tones of the bridge pickup. Way back when there was a guy out of Canda named Ed Bickert who played jazz with the Tele which is where I got the idea from. Later on guys like Mike Stern went for the Tele also though I think his is made by Sadowsky. As far as amps I used a Fender Bassman and Vibroverb with the Tele and strat and have always found some wisdom in the "use fender with fender" axiom. On the other hand I've used Les Pauls and despite their weight (Which I don't have a problem with) they have endless sustain and a great fret board. I've used the LP with a Fender Twin but prefer the sounds of the 50W marshall. I should point out that the Mesa Boogies were also quite capable of accomodating either the LP or strat. I'm a big believer in quality used instruments and will typically avoid the new market simply because most of the instruments aren't well made. There are exceptions but unless you are looking for a MIDI capable guitar (Brian Moore makes some good ones) then steer clear of the Guitar Center "specials". Again. There are exceptions and if you are happy with the way a guitar feels then who really cares ? One thing that is interesting to me is the price of Les Pauls - back in the late 70s to mid 80s they were cheap as chips but later on when G&R got popular and Slash made LP popular again those prices shot up and have remained high ever since. In some of the second hand shops they are asking mad money for older Les Pauls and many times without good reason. I would also like to point out that the Gibson ES-335 is a great , versatile guitar that is all too often passed over by rockers since it is so strongly associated with jazz. But its a great sounding guitar even when plugged up through a marshall. Sure. The guitar looks a little bit "square" but it sure doesn't sound like it,

Sorry. I don't agree. I've known many children of former Wayfers and while they might have some sense of loyalty to the TWI based on their parents' loyalty, I typically don't find them on these forums taking a stand for VPW. Obviously it could happen but even then they usually demonstrate more awareness of TWI lingo.

"fired by The Way" ? Who talks like that ? I've never heard ANYONE involved with TWI ever use this terminology. And worse its "everyone that got fired by The Way" as if all those who ever were M&Aed or left under less than ideal cicrcumstances is now here at Gspot ? This post has troll written all over it. Seems both CK and "Ken" share near identical writing patterns.... This reminds me that back on Waydale there was a poster there whom I firmly believe to have been a troll who had no practical experience with TWI based on the odd way that he or she would phrase things. Its like they had been reading the various posts and sought to construct some type of Way identity based on the experiences of others. Anyway, this person posted fairly standard stuff but then got very defensive about PFAL and VPW. So once the discussion got very detailed this person started screwing up details very badly even making some massive blunders such as having LCM's WAP class predating PFAL. Of course that was very telling but the poster claimed he had just transposed the two by accident. But there were other blunders that busted him/her like confusing the WOW and Corps programs. After a few confrontations on this they left or at least returned to lurk mode.

Damn, you guys are young...... Here is part of my list (off the top of my head) in no certain order (some of these have already been mentioned). I'll supplement this later Bullit The Good Bad And The Ugly The Dirty Dozen The Great Escape The Hustler The French Connection The Wild Bunch Slapshot Death Wish High Plains Drifter Mean Streets Runaway Train Most of the Sean Connery Bond flicks In Like Flint Easy Rider Spartacus

Pond, What was your previous Gspot handle ?

Well Alan, You've only been here a short while and based on your post (the one quoted above) I suppose you will be playing the martyr card very soon. And relative to your assertions that there is all this back stroking going on, well I just don't see it. Seems to me you that you would very much like to characterize any opposing opinion as "personal" and the result of a "salvo". Speaking only for myself - I don't know anyone here (at least based on their handles) and I don't look for approval of the forum nor do I attempt to provide it. The great thing about post way living is that no one needs to be "like minded" or concerned about "the body". So maybe you want to respond to this post and pretend that I'm part of some Gspot clique made up exclusively of "back strokers" but I hate to disappoint you. I'm just a guy who thinks for himself. And if you express your point of view then thats cool. I can respect it. But don't pretend that your opinions are are the object of scorn form a Gspot group or clique. Live with your posts - don't try to make it seem like "the man" is coming down on you.

My take is that God gave us intellectual capacity so he would fully expect us to use this. Not necessarily as a substitute for a spiritual relationship but because it is important for us to know the problems which faced wise men and women throughout history. We get perspective and wisdom from this that we can apply in our own lives. Furthermore I feel that education is very important not only in terms of enhancing your employability but your general knowledge as well. For example once I pursued studies at an accredited institution I learned about philosophy, history, literature, math, and science and so on. I was amazed at how mind blowing this experience was. Of course one need not go back to school to experience this, just pursue a passion and explore it. See while I was in TWI they wanted to be your only source for education and they typically disparaged the concept of college education calling it "worldy knowledge". In reality the college experience was competition for the various Way programs and classes so they knew that if you were serious about school you wouldn't have time for TWI. Lots of people who went in TWI had to put their talents and career interests on hold to fulfill the expectations of TWI. TWI was supposed to serve and empower us but it wound up being the other way around. There was no time for us to become individuals and develop our respective talents. TWI robbed many people of that experience. Sure, they talked a big game about "Word in culture" and about how individuals were called to accomplish some functio within the body but that was just lip service. All they wanted from anyone was for you to sit down and shut up and accept as truth any thing that a leader said. Forget about you, your individuality, your gifts and talents. TWI owns you and thats that. If you are living in Bakersfield , Cali today and TWI wants you to move to LaCrosse Wisconson by the end of next week , thats what you will do. They wouldn't give a flip if you had made good friends or you had started thinking about signing up for a creative writing course at the local college. Just pack it up and go. Way leaders would go "Creative writing ? Why would you waste time on something like that ? Besides, many authors are homosexuals". In any case I endorse an experience where you open yourself up to the avenues of learning that weren't possible to pursue while you were in TWI. Maybe its painting, sculpting, writing, starting a construction business, going back to school , or whatever. Don't sit around waiting for another felllowship or religious experience to snap you out of it. Its certainly good to develop your spirituality but you can do it in a way that acknowledges your special contributions and abilities. Focus on YOU and don't worry about how that looks to anyone else especially some religious organization who only wants to use and exploit your good nature and willingness to help. Cultivate an understanding of what it is that makes you happy instead of relying upon external feedback and direction to decide that for you. I hope this helps.

Thats my favorite. How ironic since TWI was founded by a man who bought his Phd to fulfill his "academic requirements". I never took the advanced class because it wasn't necessary for me to do so since it was routine for people in my area to openly share what they had learned at various classes. My early involvement with TWI was because of my friends so we had that before TWI and , at least early on, that friendship transcended TWI rules and regulations. Anyway the first Advanced class grad in our area came back and was more than happy to go over in detail what he had learned. He had his syllabus and all his notes so people could see all the information. This was what we would have done with any class. We didn't sit there and and guard access to our notes like people later did. We figured "all nine all the time" and anything that we could for each other to make that happen was acceptable in the eyes of God. Of course it wasn't acceptable in the eyes of TWI as we later discovered. Once the word got around (no pun intended) that we had been doing this we were asked to stop. There was even some lame reference to copyrighted material as if we were making copies (Which we weren't) of the syllabus. It was all just to make sure that people were paying money for this information. All that bull about various classes being "Too heavy" for someone was just a method to make sure you paid for all the classes which would maximize profit for the TWI.

VPW did plagiarize and that is for sure though I've never been of the mind that what he stole was necessarily that "right on" to begin with. This is a mistake that I see VPW worshippers make over and over again. They excuse the crimes of VPW on the basis that what he stole was somehow "god breathed" and therefore not subject to the "laws of man" but I've never been completely comfortable with what he taught in the first place. Some of it indeed sounded impressive and very detailed especially the sections he copped from Leonard on the Holy Spirit but even so, I don't know that it represents something akin to a "lost biblical scroll". ITs simply another man's opnion on how the holy spirit works. VPW was very attracted to it - at least to the extent that he stole the material and published it under his own name. But that doesn't mean that it was "god breathed". If someone does still hold onto some aspects of PFAL it would be better and more honorable for that person to consider the source and attempt to work with that to see if it still holds up. Some of VPW's sources were fairly obscure which is why I believe that he thought he could get away with undetected plagiarism in the first place. So one might have a difficult time tracking down original copies of books by Leoanard, Stiles, Bullinger, Kenyan, Starr, Mosley, et al. But its still the right thing to do rather than to blindly accept it all as "god breated".

I'm glad you admit that.

Surf over to the way website and look in their research link and you will see a picture that says its all about how TWI conducts its "research". The center piece is the notepad sitting in the middle (no doubt full of notes from a recent 3 hour meeting). This contains the present truth as dispensed by the reigning MOG or second rate substitute. This is the real bible for the Way person. Go to meetings to get the truth and consider any and all suggestions from a higher up as a commandment even if it means not opening up the bible to check things out. Just keep checking your notes. To the right is a concordance sitting under the light next to a flower which tells us that people are still being told to spend hours contemplating the meaning of a single word or prhase at the expense of the bigger picture and context. Despite TWI's cliams that the bible interprets iteself isn't amazing how they won't let that happen choosing rather to direct you to books to get the "real meaning". Its also interesting that the concordance is at the "right" of the picture - not the bible. Of course the current Way books are at the center of it all as if thats all that really matters - when in doubt just reach back into the treasure chest. Look at your notes first of course. And here is the kicker - we have the bible on the "left" ! Wow. TWI with all its attention to detail ! Somebody needs to take a check up from the neck up after letting that faux pas occur. Of course maybe it was intentional and they are being honest about how the feel about the bible being inferior to TWI meeting notes, publications, and concordance. The bible is the least prominent book in the whole picture and there is no independdent light source for it as there was for the concordance. From looking at the picture we see that TWI expects you to read your notes first, then stare into a condordance and then crack open a Way book or two. And then if you really still don't know what is happening then maybe, just maybe, look at the bible. Though we do see that it is open to the new testament section towards the back. Obviously the Old Testament pages of that bible have rarely been examine - after all that stuff was just for our learning and doesn't need to be considered as important. And then there are the old , hackneyed blurbs about figures of speech and customs as well as insinuations that TWI has Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek experts on staff. I doubt that they have anyone on staff or in the whole organization that has a anything close to an academic degree relating to these languages. Of course that still wouldn't stop them from promoting TWI as a research ministry that exceeds the finest seminaries and theology schools. After all, they've forgotten more than anyone will ever know about the "holy spirit field". Yea like thats how it would be listed in course catalogs at seminaries across the land - THEOL 4578 -"The Holy Spirit Field" 4 credit hours. No doubt VPW is mentioned heavily in these courses also.

You are becoming a cliche as on Waydale and the early days of Gspot there were those who routinely posted scripture "AT" others presumably to invoke conditioning similar to the proverbial Pavlovian response. Like we are all supposed to snap to attention and go "wow its the word and nothing but the word" ? Post all you wish and if you prefer to let Way publications and classes be your only source for your spiritual information then you have far greater problems than people here at Gspot not listening to you. Many have come before you using the same approach and NONE of them have been successful in their apparent mission of reclaiming people to Way teachings - at least as far as I have been able to determine. I guess you think you will be collecting rewards at the bema for enduring all the reprobates and infidels here who reject the words of VPW and LCM.

Great then why aren't you going to a catholic church ? I mean if you have an interest in verbally abusive leadership, money hungry clergy, and sexual abuse then perhaps TWI and the CC are somewhat equivalent. What I find to be odd is that TWI has only been a round a minute fraction of the time that the CC has yet TWI is doing quite well in the wicked category and with no outside influence. In a short 40 or so years TWI has managed to make itself quite rich off the efforts of others- Owning land managing assets. I'd say that TWI has actually modelled itself after the CC. Its followers live at near poverty levels ,waiting to be told where to live next while the leaders bask in luxury and have their meals cooked for them, their homes cleaned for them, in some cases their sexual needs "minstered to". LAstly, as its been said before, VPW supporters want us to forget his problems because they happened "so long ago" yet they will never forget any of the problems of the CC some of which occurred centruries ago. You can't have it both ways. Having a long memory for the sins of others while having a short memory for the sins of VPW isn't fair.

Again I would say that paying a gas attendant is massively different than tithing. I don't even know how the two could ever be compared. Next, lots of larger churches permit record inspection for those who are interested. Church elders and deacons have routine access to this information and can , if they so desire, inspect it in greater detail to their satisfaction. Obviously such reports are far too detailed to post on a wall somewhere or print up for general distribution though I've been to churches that willingly distribute financial summary information which includes number of members. Many in the congregation don't look beyond this but there are those who do. I know. I 'm one of them. TWI never did anything like this , just the opposite in fact. Just buried this information. Why ? Because people were living like kings while others lived stacked 4 to an apartment working at the quickie mart so they could spend the bulk of thier time pushing PFAL and helping stock the coffers at HQ ? ANY church (TWI, the catholic church, a way offshoot) who blocks access to their financial records from members is hiding something.

Interesting "logic" at work here...Gas stations and their attendants aren't usually soliciting your money as a means to promote "the word over the world" or some form of the christian message. Eveyone knows that gas stations and oil companines are in "business" to make money ! There is no secrecy in that message. Now, I give money to a church which presumably is promoting the word and is on a christian mission. I see their tax returns every year as does any member who cares to. Church leaders don't complain, whine, and moan about this. In fact they are quite interested in getting feedback on how the church should be spending money and what programs and initiatives should be given a priority. The congregation gives the money and we have a say in how its spent. So why can't TWI or its off shoots that maintain financial contribtiuons do the same ? These organizations exist only because people gave money and labor to enable it. What is to hide ? Especially if they are truly working to make a difference in the lives of people ? Of course if one believes that church "administrators" (ahem) should be able to take a slice off the top to fund personal acquisitions and investments then I can see how that person would want to have church records sealed and kept secret.

Let me read this back to you to see if I got it. Lets forget all about the evil that TWI and its leaders perpetrated on people and focus on "the word" which apprarently only includes the books of Romans through Thessalonians. I suppose we can junk the rest because after all its not really written to us. But since we can do "all things" its all good. And then it gets better, we'll have a fellowship ,maybe even call it a Twig, so we can teach what we know. Is this right ? And lets "leave the leaders out of it" ? I bet the the "Word even interprets itself" and in places it does't we can certainly force it. Interesting concepts there. Gee. Where would I have heard these ideas before ?

Yep. Such as there are men who would exalt themselves and seek the adulation and gloiry that is due only to God. I learned that VPW was a thief and an excellent example of a counterfeit for a man of god.

What I think is interesting here is that john didn't challenge anything that I said about VPW so I'll take it that he concedes my points. So why would he or any VPW supporter continue to deify a charlatan, plaigirist, and glory hound ? After all thats what VPW was.

Well John you are definitely an authority on anger having perfected the concept of righteous anger.

Well I don't think that what VPW was necessarily "the word of god" - I mean he taught it to the extent that Leonard, Stiles, Bullinger, Kenyon, et al taught "the word" since those were his sources (albeit uncredited). Despite what TWI wanted you to believe, there are and were lots of journeymen clergy out there who deliver a powerful biblical message but you don't hear much about these people because they didn't seek the adulation and glory of a generation as did VPW. I've met some guys who put in a lifetime of service to the church and even at 80 years of age still visit the sick, comfort the grieving, volunteer whenver they can. They don't ask for a dime ! Not one red cent and they work like their lives depend on it ! Thats service, dedication. They don't do it to get "rewards at the bema" like Way folk do. (God, how self serving is that ?). TWI doesn't help anyone who doesn't pony up money to be in the club and this all started with the "Great" VPW. TWI has only conptempt for society at large and exhibits a decidedly unchristian attitude towards those who don't follow TWI party line. That started with ole Vic so I don't even see how he taught "the word". You had to pay to hear it and that became a never ending theme throughout his existence. Money for the word. I cannot think of a more devilish approach. This of course isn't unique to TWI as lots of con men evangelists lay it on thick but VPW is no different than these guys. They are all worthy of a specialized form of punishment reserved for those who attempt to use the bible and its message for personal financial gain.

If something good happened in your life while you were in TWI then they wanted credit for it. If something bad happened then it was YOUR fault and there was no sharing of the blame. It was uniquely and solely explained in terms of the individual. Nice arrangement for them huh ? They get all the credit and none of the blame. It was interesting that VPW couldn't successfully operate the so called law of believing to deliver himself from cancer. It is even more telling that "The Teacher" even got cancer in the first place. What was a nasty ole devil spirit doing running around in his body anyway ? Lets be real here. Had TWI been above board and straightforward about VPW's illness as it was happening then there would have been nothing but support and understanding. But no they covered it up to preserve the party line and to keep perpetuating a teaching that wasn't working not even for "the teacher". It blows my mind how insensitive and downright evil many Way leaders were because they helped keep a lid on this thing and yet they openly criticized believers in the field for being ill or having serious health issues that prevented them from going WOW or Corps. I had a friend who couldn't complete his second WOW term because he got sick. He later died and people were going "well I guess his believing just wasn't there". Others question his "commitment" as if perhaps his illness wasn't evidence of being "double minded". But when Vic died no one said anything like that. They just worhshipped that guy even more and made up sick rationalizations like "well VPW believed himself to sleep". Lots of the remaining leaders (if not all of them) could have been up front about it all but they weren't. People sufferred in the field but just to keep PFAL on track those leaders wouldn't say "well maybe we got it wrong". No sir.... Keep running those classes, keep getting that money..... If it sounds like I'm mad its because I am. The so called Law of Believing was a very treachorous teaching and caused lots of grief in people's lives.

Talk to a lawyer... Talk to a lawyer... Talk to a lawyer.... Talk to a lawyer....

yes its interesting. I know of many people who borrowed money to pay for PFAL and other classes. And they were open about it and the area leaders would say positive things like "now thats believing". Anything to get you to take classes or buy books of course. But isn't borrowing money placing yourself in debt ? Why didn't they complain about people who borrowed cash to take the class ? Debt is debt even if its $40 or $400,000 so they were being hypocritical. What a shocker !

The Way's no debt policy was simply to keep people free of financial entaglements so they could be highly mobile and ready for relocation at a moment's notice. They also encouraged a "full house" living arrangement to keep people's minds on TWI and its priorities. I was told to take forms of employment that weren't demanding or would require lots of overtime since I needed to concern myself with "the things of the ministry". Additionally, people were discouraged from going to college (I certainly was and thank God I didn't listen to them) since such a commitment would inhibit ones' ability to participate in WOW and Corps programs. Sure, they had some form of college outreach but anyone who was serious about academics didnt' have time to recruit for TWI and hawk PFAL. I view all way policies as methods to keep people available for relocation and ready for marching orders. They keep you busy with twigs, classes, family nights, sunday night tape listening, supporting classes, financial record keeping to the extent that you marginalize yourself from your friends, family, and even your job. After that, all you have left is TWI which is what they want.