diazbro

Yes it can be confronted but is one willing to accept the consequences ? Though if a person is still "in" then expulsion from TWI is a distinct possibility. Unless one is prepared for that then its usually more convenient to keep quiet and maintain the act until a safe departure can be made. TWI implemented the concept of "likemindedness" to rein in those who might be unruly or unwilling to accept the will of the leaders. Furthermore it gave them a (faux) biblical basis upon which to justify the mark and avoid tag applied to those uncomfortable or unsatisfied with TWI's version of existence. But one need not engage in outright confrontation to get M&Aed - just asking straight up questions about hot topics such as the distribution of abundant sharing could get you into deep,deep trouble. And if you persisted you were typically shown the door without hesitation. I expect that many of those still in sense problems with the TWI's spin on the events surrounding LCM's probation and departure. But they are used to be fed half truths and incomplete information so its easier to take what they give you and suppress the instincts that are telling you that there is more to the story than you are being told. Each has to reach their own bulls***t threshold before they've had enough. In my opinion TWI is lying machine with no off switch. It will continue to pump out half truths, lies, twisted versions of reality, anything it has to in order to keep the few remaining members from leaving

Oldiesman said: I think this has always been key to Dr. John Juedes' unrelenting attack against TWI. We never believed the trinity, and because of that, we've always been illegitimate. >> How does this relate to the issue of plagiarism ? If ones doesn't like (JJ's) approach then fine but that is no reason to suspend investigation into VPW's literary practices. The question of VPW's liberal borrowing of the works of others exsited long before that site or this one existed so its not permissible to drop the issue altogehter just because JJ's site takes it on.

Lets see... Fernando Valenzuela (former LA Dodgers pitcher). They said he was "Seed" because his eyes kind of rolled up before every pitch so thats supposedly when the devils crept in and made him throw the screw ball (the pitch for which he was famous). All religious leaders other than VPW and his suck yes men. This included Billy Graham, Oral Roberts, Pat Robertson, et al. Its odd though - they used to tell me that Billy Graham and VPW knew each other and that BG had acknolwdged VPW as something of a holy spirit master. But BG sold out to the world and became seed to get his minstry rolling like it did. Native Indians were said to have a predisposition towards devil spirits and being seed boys since they were idol worshippers so thats why their race dwindles in numbers. Shriners (descend from Masons) were totally seed. Most all rich and famous people were said to be either possessed or seed. Most all famous rock musicians. Someone made reference to a particular devil spirit that infested rock stars but I don't recall hearing what they particular type was. Oh and Pat Boone was a seed boy thorugh and through what with that nice guy , clean cut christian act. He was luring people to their demise. Frankly I think it was Debbie boone who was seed what with that godawful "You Light Up My Life" song. I make no apologies to any Debbine Boone fans out there. That was a horrible song Anyone who had directly rejected taking PFAL. Plenty of people faded before taking PFAL or they sort of avoided the issue but I'm talking about those who were direct and open about not wanting to pay the going rate were torn down and backstabbed when they weren't around (his mind is full of devils and he might even be seed). In general the term was usually applied to anyone whom a given Way leader did not like. And of course it was all by revelation that this would be revealed but of course only to the spiritual heavies.

Garth said: So would those groups that do 'cast out demons or rebuke you in the name of JC' then fit with your definition of a 'cult'.... That's getting into the doctrinal side of defining 'cultness', wouldn't it? From the same 'experts' that say that doctrine makes no difference in determining such? >> *laff* Well you asked a question and supplied your own answer to it.. but I'll give it a shot anyway. One would have to experience and witness systematic and pathological behavior of the type described ("you'll be a greasespot if you don't do what I say") before its reasonable to consider that the organization might be a cult. TWI leadership regularly employed such terminology to insure compliance. The distinguishing behavior is the qualifier here not the choice of words "you'll be a greasepot". My original response in this thread was to point out that I don't think that the layman views the issue of JC is God as being the sole determinant for cult status. If they did then these web pages would be saying: How to Tell if your church is a cult ! 1) They claim JC is not god. 2) They reject the trinity But those pages are far more concerned with patterned behavior than any single point of theology. In fact I did a web search on "cult characteristics" and out of the top 10 pages I pulled up *none* mentioned points of theology at all or even specific churches. Try it out. Furthermore its interesting that the behaviors described on these various websites are amazingly similar and so well model organizations like TWI that one wonders how these disparate sources of information could so easily converge on these charactersitics unless the phenomenon actually existed. Now. I've seen some christian bookstores offer publications by so called authors who debate various points of theology offerred by , for example, the unification church or the jehovah's witnessess. And its these authors who I find using the biblical approach - "well this organization holds that the trinity was a man made construct conceived to preserve the tradtitions of polytheism. Of course the dedicated christian knows in the fiber of his being that the Trinity is the cornserstone of our foundation in christ and without it our victory over satan and sin would not be complete... Therefore it is logical , not to mention spirtually sound, to conclude that this organization can not be led by god and is therefore a cult". I've *seen* critiques like this and they are completely absurd. Maybe thats what R-Girl was getting at. But I just don't see this type of approach reflected at large in society. There are social workers who are aware of the cult concept and have seen the impact it has made on the family. This isn't an artificial construct.

RotteGirl said: It seems like in the "expert on cults" circles, that according to them, The sure fire way of identifyng a cult, is If they don't beleive that Jesus is God. >> Well I'll suggest that there is more to it than just that. If you look at sites such as: http://www.csj.org/infoserv_cult101/checklis.htm http://surrealist.org/betrayalofthespirit/cult.html http://www.refocus.org/charcult.html one notes that there are a constellation of dynamics and behaviors which typify "closed" or "absolute" organizations such as "cults". Of course some note that these dynamics can be found in civic organizations or rabid sales clubs like amyway though I don't buy it (no pun intended). No one at an amway meeting or the local lions club tried to cast demons out of me or rebuked me in the name of JC. Nor was I told that if I did't seel Amway that my life would nosedive and I would be "a greasepot". I don't think that the word "cult" is as difficult to define as it once was. Sociologists, clergymen, and medical health professionals have all been working for a better understanding of this phenomenon. I've talked to people who claim you cannot define the word "cult" but everyone seems to know of one perhaps not by personal experience necessarily. No offense intended to anyone but I notice that the more vocal critics of the cult concept are those with cult experience. I've got a couple of friends from my Way daze who will deny till death that TWI was a cult. C'est la vie mon ami.

I don't think Way workers were slaves - that would insult those who really were. It is true that people were expected to put in long,long hours for no money and sleep was precious. But no one was forced to remain or was sold as property to TWI. If someone became a "yes" man or woman then thats what happened. Maybe they thought it was the thing to do - but they still could have walked at anytime. I do recall some people complaining to the local branch leader about his practice of cramming supporting classes (Dealing With The Adversary, Renewed Mind, CFS, etc) into killer schedules like Thu nite, Fri nite , all day Sat and Sun. He claimed that he had to do it to accomodate "out of town guests" but when you looked around the room you didn't see anyone from out of town. Later I learned that they did that in every locale. I don't recall learning much in any of those classes because of the ridiculous pace they set. I nodded off alot during all of them and so did many others. Even the class leader was caught napping. This is just part of the MO of TWI and other cults also. Keep people tired and hungry. TWI lifestyle was not caculated to make you comfortable thats for sure.

Yes. Agreed. all cults - moonies, TWI, Scientology isolate people to keep them firmly rooted in their practices and teachings. They also introduce jargon and terms not necessarily because its needed. But it gives them a metric whereby they can gauge your level of commitment to the group. Those who become fluent in the jargon are recognized as the faithful whereas those who do not use the buzz words and phrases are easily recognized as new comers or perhaps malcontents who need "personal attention". When I took PFAL for the first time I was made to believe that that was the end point of searching. Since it claimed to do all the things that it said on that green card "harmony in the family, etc" I was surprised to learn that there were other classes to be taken. One leader explained it like: "Well PFAL is truly a masterpiece though its really just a survey of all the wonderful things God wants to do for us. The other classes are where you REALLY learn HOW to apply the keys to abundance mentioned in PFAL". So you are off to some other classes and by then you are going to fellowships at least twice a week (3 times if you are going to family nights) and perhaps are giving people rides to and from Twig and maybe even spending sunays over at the Twig leaders house who is helping you organize your first public teachings. So over time your personal life , such as it was, is non-existent. Your former friends are wondering what's up - so are your parents. After this cycle they start mentioning the WOW program where "you REALLY learn HOW to put it all together - its just you and likeminded believers putting it all out there for God and WATCH OUT - he will blow your mind with his blessings". So if you take that bait then after that its like. "well you have great potential you know and its God's will for you to be your best and the ONLY place to reach that potential is in the Corps program. Its where you REALLY learn HOW to reach the heart of God and his people". I've talked with people who had similar levels of involvement in other cults and except for the names of the classes mentione above its EXACTLY the same dynamic. What was supposed to be a one time thing turned into a lifestyle and then into bondage. The labels change but the methodology of all cults are more or less the same. Its amazing that there are former Way people who do not see any of this and will not agree that TWI was even a cult. I guess they had a sweet setup and somehow escaped the grind of the average believer. Good for them - Its good that somebody got over on TWI. But the larger share of former Way people readily acknowledge the cult nature of TWI.

Well its not a devil spirit.....

If a person thinks these pics are sexist and degrading then such a person would have 12 cardiaques watching TeleMundo or some of the popular television shows in Mexico or South America where provocatively dressed women are the rule as opposed to the exception. But its seldom interpreted as a challenge for all women to converge on some standard of beauty. That is - not every mexican lady considers ,for example, Salma Hayek as competition which is what happens in America where men and women alike tend to view movie stars and models as "real people" as opposed to entertainers or models selling a product. These people are well compensated to maintain a certain image which might involve plastic surgery. So what ? I don't expect everyone to look like that nor would I like those expectaions imposed upon me. I relaize that they are *models*. They are hired to promote lingerie. Western civilaiztion will not cease to exist if Victoria's Secret has a lingerie show.

I tend to value mutual culture over mutual religion though the first might imply the second. However in a country as culturally diverse as the US its not necessarily the case. I've often found that a shared sense of humor is an exellent indicator of compatibility. A sense of humor reflects culture, values, and ideals. Its more than just one aspect of the personality. If you both genuinely find the same things to be funny that suggests a deeper connection than a simple shared appreciation for a certain movie or a particular type of food which could simply be a coincidence. Relative to friends. Dating by committee is never fun. It is hard enough for two single people to get to know each other. A running commentary from well meaning friends and family can lead to hyper-analyzation of what should essentially be a personal process. Your friends want you to date a christian man ? Cool. let them date a christian man. You date whomever you want and feel good about it.

I was first attracted to TWI because they offerred an unconventional (for 1974) approach to the Bible that let me combine my social and spiritual interests. I don't think it would suprise anyone here were I to note that many were smoking pot and ,*gasp*, sexual relations were occurring between twig members. I attribute this to post 60s behavior. No one in TWI promoted any of this but since most were of the same generation we were simply reflecting the attitudes and general practices of the time which still supported these activities - or at least silently condoned them. A funny story - once at a family night with about 20 people in attendance I asked a WOW if premarital sex was acceptable for Way follwers. The whole group started laughing and someone muttered "It had better be else many of us are going to hell". So my initial Way expereinces were far from the legalism and ultra conservatism associated with TWI under LCM. But just as some of the most vocal hippies transitioned into middle age becoming equally as conservative as anyone they ever criticized I think people in TWI followed suit. As people started families and needed to quit prologing their adolescence they latched onto qualties and attributes generally associated with adulthood. In the 80s, society was reacting to the recent two decades with a strong dose of conservatism and religions turned more towards fundamentalism - TWI was no exception in this regard. Lots of churches got into the gay bashing thing - Of course few made it their personal fetish/obsession like Craig. So I'm just pointing out that as far as rules, well I left before TWI became obssessed with them. so any influence to abide by the rules has come from other sources such as my upbringing and family. My strongest objections to TWI relate to how they treated people and how they changed doctrine to suit their agenda. I wasn't around for the micromanagement days and can only imagine that it was a nightmare on top of what was already a bad time.

My speculation at work here. It is arrogant beyond all imagination for me to believe that we are the only form of life in the universe. In many ways I feel that we are somewhat incidental to the vast enormnity which surrounds us. On the other hand I certainly marvel at the order which exists and am perfectly willing to believe that a so called higher order of intellienge set in motion the existence which is the very source of our animation. But I don't care to talk about n-dimensional space, crop circles, the freakin' Bermuda triangle, or Aztec calendars derived from alien timetables which will one day enable us to fold time so we can return to the "good ole days". Thats interesting to consider on occasion just likes it interesting to argue for or against the trinity (well not really for me but maybe for others). Just as Way people become consumed with the minutae of verse interpretation and never really get anything accomplished in life, I know other people who have all but abandoned their daily obligations in hopes that there are aliens "out there" who will somehow change things. Both sets of individuals are equally lost in my opinion because they ignore the here and now (and sometimes even their families) which can be a source of tremendous peace. I accept my very,very,very,very small role in this large universe and I like it but I'm not insignificant and neither are you. If it turns out that we are royalty (son of god with all power) then thats great but I've got things to do NOW in THIS life, on EARTH which require my focus and attention. I would think that God would appreciate me tending to the business at hand.