diazbro

I'm not so sure that VPW is off the hook simply by suggesting that because he taught what some feel to be right-on stuff that this somehow makes his acts of plagiarism insignificant. This is like saying that a person who steals only precious art is somehow not really a criminal since he has good taste. Vic made money off those books and classes by claiming to be the originator of that material. He lied and deceived and put his baggage on someone's train and got a free ride out of it. Hold Vic responsible for his plagiarism and separately examine the quality (or lack thereof) of the content of Leonard & Stiles). Frankly I'm not sure that thats even "right-on" but I'm certainly willing to give it a more serious consideration since they are presumably the original authors of the material presented.

Wow I didn't know that VPW's moment of epiphany was also taken and rewritten. I thought he just came up with that one by himself since its common for aggressive preachers and evangelists to make similar claims.

Dot Matrix said: So, Weirwille can change a word, add a word or delete a word... Sounds like what he told us the devil did to Eve in Genisis. >> Yes exactly ! VPW went to lengths to explain how adding and changing words can impact the truth of something but his supporters want us to let it slide when we observe the same practice in the books of VPW. Worse yet its more than just a case of adding and deleting a single word or even several. We are talking about entire paragraphs and sections ! Are we to apply a different standard to VPW simply because some consider him to be their "father in the word" ? No we should not.

Oldiesman said: I don't view it as plagiarism. There are enough dissimilarities....a large one for instance in ideas...one statement is promoting the "gifts" of the spirit while the other is promoting "manifestations". Two completely different and distinct meanings. >> VPW did attend college prior to "obtaining" his doctorate from a known diploma mill so he had sufficient previous academic experience to understand the concept and consequences of plagiarism. Any college freshman in English 101 recevies a class syllabus indicating that plagiarism can result in academice probation and possible expuslion. It simply isn't tolerated. Of course I do understand that not everyone goes to college and consequently never gets practical experience with how research papers should be prepared and submitted. Thats cool but VPW ,with academic experience (save for his doctorate), would have known this. Also recall that he self-published those works ,aka using the "vanity press". In doing this he exempted his work from the usual and customary editorial examinations applied towards potential publications so it was rather easy for him to omit attributions without people noticing. And given that the works of Leonard and Stiles were relatively obscure , even for christian publications, made it unlikely that anyone would know the difference. That VPW named dropped Siles, Leonard does not serve as a valid substitute for proper attribution in a research work. One notices that VPW's verbal references to these authors never included details of how he, VPW, had benefitted just that he had learned from them. ITs a bit odd that a man who would claim to teach the word like it hadn't been since the 1st century would have publications continaing information which was extremely similar to that in pre-existing publications. This would cast some doubt on VPW's status as the only man of god for the time since , if what he wrote represented revelation then it seems that that same "revelation" had been given to others before him. So there really was no new truth or light for our generation - not from VPW there wasn't.

Did the concept of excellor sessions exist in the Leonard classes ? I'm told that there were "practice" sessions but whether or not they used "excellor" I don't know. Also remember that in TWI that in the AC there were no excellor sessions - those were only for the Intermediate and Foundational classes.

No I never experienced physical abuse though knew people who did. Of course I know that there are some VPW loyalists who will use the "logic" that if you didn't see it yourself then it didn't happen. And even if it did you probably asked for it or subconsciously enabled it. Unfortunately there are people who post at Gspot who think like that... But there was tons of verbal abuse , not directed just at me, but ,at different times, the Twig, the Branch, and once the entire Limb. We weren't getting enough PFAL classes running so the entire Limb was blistered for being out of fellowship. In the mid 70s it wasn't that bad and towards the 80s it occurred with greater frequency and into the 80s it became standard practice. I had had enough when a well known Way sax player DC chewed me out for something he thought had happened. Those who know him know that he was/is blind so I'm not sure how he drew the conclusions that he did but it didn't stop him from screaming,foaming and doing his best LCM imitation that he could muster. It was a sign to me that things had gotten really horrible when normally well behaved people started being bitter and horrible to others only because the prez did it.

Dot MAtrix said: TWI is all flipped out about people running boot leg PFAL classes! There was talk of legal problems if people ran it or copied it and shared it with others. >> Actually it would be a simple matter for anyone with requsisite way experience to "film" their own version of PFAL (but call it something else and rewrite the syllabus). Didn't CG do this ? Camcorders are cheap and lord knows (no pun intended) that many know various sessions quite well. I know a guy locally who had the PFAL so many times he can pick up anywhere with it if you start making given statements from it.

Mike said: This is probably the one hundredth such admission on tape I?ve heard, not to mention the book and magazine versions of same. >> Dude it doesn't matter. Verbal attribution is NOT sufficient. All scholarly and academic works MUST be presented to a publisher with the implicit understanding that all "borrowed" ideas ,even paraphrased ones, need to be acknowledged in writing in compliance with the format of the paper/style (Chicago,etc). NOT to do so is plagiarism and will get your a$$ booted from any reasonable institution/ university in the land. That you don't know this is your problem.

In my opinion the posting of the letter here suggests that they are looking to see how much people might know about this and other problems within TWI. Legal action might be taken against them for this move with DW and this is one method of seeing if there will be others who might pipe up about being shafted out of promises of support. TWI would not post a letter here just to show that they are standup guys - no way thats gonna happen. They are up to something.

>> List away and don't forget to turn in NON PAYING BIDDERS Ebay kicks em off after 3 infractions. Ebay Rant ahead so skip if you don't like OT posts... Amen. This is the single most biggest headache for me since I'm primarily an Ebay seller. I deal a lot of music equipment most of which sells for at least several hundred bucks and up so I make sure that I spell out in detail not to bid if you aren't serious. I have lots and lots of clear, large pictures from all angles ,I make my email address available for questions and give excellent response time and for auctions that go over $500.00 I even ship free so I go to lots of trouble to make the deal good. But even still about 25% of the time some whack job wins the bid and I get this email like "dude I'm stoked to be copping this gear from you so where do I send the money ?" and thats it - I never hear from them again. Amazingly so many of non-paying bidders,at least for music equipment, seem to have the same style of communication and choose the same words. anywa I report them and in the past have given negative feedback immediately but thats not always a good way to handle it since early on one of the idiots gave ME negative feedback after I slammed him (which was justified) and at the time it was really hard to get it taken off without lots of interaction with their admins. Non paying bidders are the pits - what jollies do they get by doing this ?

Old way books selling on Ebay have been a source of amazement for many since Waydale was around. Nothing new really. Ebay is a testament to the phrase that one man's junk is another's treasure. I threw out my Way books long before Ebay existed. I wanted to burn them on Uncle Harry day but I was cleaning house one day and they had to go. I'd be happy to have sold them for lots of money I certainly don't regret tossing them.

At the time (75 or so) we in my area were all young with an abundance of hormones so it made sense that there might be a class to deal with this topic. On the other hand no one in the room needed an explanation on slang or needed to see pictures of dongs. I do recall that after the class that some local leaders were adding in their 2 cents saying things like " well if you have to have sex with somone find an unbeliever - don't abuse a sister in christ". Of course the "sisters in christ" in my area were quite agressive on their own so its not like I had a choice *laff* CF&S was some half-a$$ed stab at trying to make recommendations on how a christian should approach the topic of sex but it failed as it didn't deal extensively with issues such as sex before marriage and/or adultery which are only two of the more obvious issues.

no yen for woodstock here.

Well good work transcends language. Imagine growing up listening to beatles music and not knowing what the hell they were singing but STILL enjoying the music. and once you learned the lyrics later its cool all over since now you know what they were talking about. Also I don't hear people moaning about sitting through operas performed in italian. the proposed lack of subtitles and the use of unknown actors are clearly attempts to remove obstacles to experiencing the subject matter on a deeper level. (I wonder if there will be any music ?). But it remains to be seen if this strategy will be succesful.

Even back in 76 I pointed out to my local leaders that the "law of believing" was lifted straight from 50s and early 60s pop psychology which included books by norman Vincent Peale, Dale Carnegie, Earl Nightingale, and Mazwell Maltz. Postive thinking was hardly a new idea by the time PFAL hit the streets. VPW did introduce the idea that you could have fear in your life which could kill your children - how whacked was that ? And well before session 12 I asked legit questions about VPW's academic background since he made authoritative references to the "original texts" and how the bible was originally organized. I was more or less scorned for my conerns."Well he IS a DOCTOR - shouldn't that good enough for you ?". Yea. but where did he study ? How many languages does he speak ? Where is his doctoral thesis ? With whom did he study ? I was given the run-a-round and politely asked to keep quiet in front of the other students who were approaching the class with "meekness" whereas I was not. Oh yea and LONG before session 12 , like years, I ran into a group of charismatic christians whose whole purpose was to intoduce people into manfiestations - It was like they would talk to you for a while, discuss the new birth and if you responded positivley they would lead you into SIT. Or they would just give you this very small phamplet which had some instructions on how to do it. No donations requested, no address on the phamplet, - just passing along the info. I guess I disappointed my class leader when I told her that I was already SITing long before I had even heard of PFAL. She was dubious and had that look in here eye like I was possessed or something but later she didn't doubt it. For many years I've seen PFAL as a mish-mash of different styles. VPW wanted to be respected like some master teacher who had the inside track on god when in fact he was cobbling together teachings by others (only diehard VPW loyalists deny this) and attempted to marktet it as the be all , end all self improvement class. And even that was a lie because before you took PFAL they were telling you that that was the pinnacle of learning the HOW of the abundant lfe. Imagine my disappointment at hearing that I had to take the supporting classes , go WOW, and then go to the Advanced class before I could REALLY live the abundant life. It was basically a pyramid scheme. Take more clases which cost more money while pulling in others to take the same classes.

Well see if you were still a standing SOGWOP then you would have gotten revelation to rebuke the spirit causing the fight which would have solved the problem nicely. Too bad that you aren't in anymore.. This is the reason I don't let the dog play with strange dogs unless both owners let them approach each other while LEASHED over several days so they can test each other's boundaries. IF there are growls then pull back hard and fast and get them out of there. If they can hang with each other and frollick a bit then you might wanna take it to the next level.

I saw it and it was what I expected it to be. A light comedy with some romance sprinkled in to give it a happy ending. I must say that I did not engage in any "rightly dividing" or worry about how they were portraying god. I gave that up long ago. Still I know some exWay people who've been out for over a decade who will get huffy about how "inaccurate" the movie is (or feel it to be). I remember when "Oh God" was out with John Denver - boy oh boy they had to have some special teachings on that to talk about how wrong it was and how God would never appear to anyone except under certain circumstances and how it was obviously devilish and the screenwriters were possessed, etc. Some folks are determined never to have a good time I guess

masterherbalist said: To the point where I was told the ministry had ENOUGH musicians and I needed to find my place in the body (ie something ELSE). >> Interesting situation. At different times I was interested in joining a Way Prods group though because I wasn't going to go WOW or go Corps on their schedule (I wanted to go directly to college after high school) was given the cold shoulder and told that "unless you are willing to put down your guitar for a year then you will be of no use to God since you are idolizing music". But I was making a living with music - I notice they didn't give people doing construction ultimatums like that - "put down your hammer for a year". No. It applied only to musicians. There was a "way prods music" thread and a "early way music" thread several months back with alot of interesting posts by various people Ted F. posted a bit as did Socks. Seems leaders had a problem sharing the stage with musicians - Way musicians felt iced out by leaders at times -they wanted to tell you how to smile, when to smile, what words to emphasize, how to stand - but they weren't even performers. Maybe cuz they had done the "kum-bah-yah" thing a few times or strummed some of the way songbook classics they felt qualified to dispense advice. More likely they wanted to keep you boxed in. I don't know for sure. I just wanted to play for people both secular and minsitry music but way leaders didn't want it cuz the full time way lifstyle did not appeal to me.

Ah yes. guitar, bass, and keyboards. been playing for 33+ years. Was in tons of bands with people some of whom you might know (secular) but I quit the road long ago after grad school and career became the dominant thing. Riding around in a van with 4 other hungover, sleep deprived, greasy guys is not that fun. But of course the adoring female fans make up for all that *contented smile* I need to point out that one of the first big rows I ever had with Way leaders was over playing in secular bands. The branch leader said that if you weren't playing music for God (i.e. a Way prods band) then you were a puppet of the devil. I didn't listen to him thank god. I had a lot of fun and saw lots of differnet slices of life via music. Playing out is rare for me at this point (work is too demanding) though I have a modestly sized sound studio which I hope to use produce some local acts and write songs. Have gotten some interest from publishing companies so we will see. I've been in and out of the music business many,many times and its much harder work than any "straight" job or academic class I'v ever had. The promises and letdowns are many and come at you in a never ending barrage. Its not for the faint of heart. I've seen lots of really, super talneted people last only like 6 months because they weren't prepared for the lifestyle (seedy managers, clubs, drugs, etc) In my opinion its the survivors in the music industry who make it - not necessarily the best musicians or singers. you know that movie "spinal tap" ? Its funny to watch but its actually pretty close to reality in terms of what second/third tier bands endure on the way up or ,as in their case, the way down. Still very funny. The same group of guys showed in "Best In Show" and I can't wait to see "Mighty Wind".

Dot said: Dbro my sister was just diagnosed with Cancer. She is from New Hampshire. What is regional and seasonal there in the winter? Would it then be a meat and potato diet? First. My condelences and beacoup de hugs. I'm deeply sorry to hear about your trouble. I think that you might have picked up on my reference to the "A-team" guy ( Dirk Benedcit ) who claimed he whipped cancer using a macrobitotic diet; however, I must say that that was not an endorsement. But its not a dismissal either. The point in my previous post was that its not been scientifically proven that such a diet (regional/seasonal) can retard and diminish cancer. To date there is no definititve statistical research which supports this as a key variable. BUT there are many people with practical experience who claim that it does. I would suggest that you check out some of the macribiotic links on the web. A search on "Dirk Benedict" will yield lots of links on his story and the macrobiotic approach in general. I want to say that I still try to follow this approach in my own life so I on a personal level I thinks its a good angle but thats just my opinion. XOXOXOX

Plagiarism is a huge deal and it can get you booted out of school even if you are tenured faculty. In the academic environment its required and expected that your research conforms to presentation standards which includes a *full* bibliography , footnotes, endnotes, of sources. In fact this process can be as time consuming and demanding as the actual collection of research data and preparation of the manuscript. Nevetheless it is a necessary part of the process It is NOT permissible to omit references even if you have merely paraphrased the words of another. It is NOT permissible to omit a reference and later provide verbal attribution in an attempt to compensate for the lack of written acknowledgement. It is NOT permissible to falsify or nudge research data, even just a "little bit" to make it better support your thesis. In established universities ,violating any one of these policies is sufficient grounds for expulsion. Thats it. It happened 3 months ago at my university to a mid career faculty member looking to boost his sagging image by publishing someone else's data albeit rewritten in a failed attempt to disguise it. Back to VPW...He vanity published his works via TWI which allowed his books to escape the usual and customary scrutiny applied by an editor seeking to insure that the work being submitted is genuine and contains evidence of primary authorship - that is that someone else didn't write it or the author didn't rip off someone else. There was no one around to question him probe him about his ideas, his conclusions, his liberal interpretation of biblical languages. He just skated. So there is no excuse for his actions as an author. Even a fledgling reporter for some high school paper could look at the books being offerred in comparison to the "works" of VPW and easily conclude that VPW plagiarized. Hardcore VPW supporters don't want to go down this road because then they have to start looking at the other areas of VPW's life. So its easy for them to throw up a smoke screen (Juedes' mission in life is to tear down VPW) to deflect due scrutiny. But in their quietest moments they know its just an exercise in denial. Anyway you look at it - plagiarizm is a very big deal whether or not the context is VPW or not. Its something that has been around since academic publications have. Dont' let VPW off the hook. He DID plagiarize.

Good post. Thanks for documenting your experience. I'm sure many people will be influenced by this even those who have long departed the way. One thing you said.. Trefor said: I had kept Bristol running for two years without any leadership help and gone to every class/seminar I could apart from the Advanced Class, and yet had been ?demoted? without any explanation or consultation. >> Man I can relate. In 76 my area was a hotbed of activity which was largely the result of people in my Limb having been friends prior to joining TWI. So it was easy and almost effortless to get people to take the class because it was bein g recommended by people who had been childhood friends. Anyway - after we had had run like 3 classes in rapid succession with no less than 20 students each , HQ sent down some "professional believers" who were there to tell us "how to coordinate and lead". But basically they killed the whole scene - Its like "thanks but we are here now so we'll be leading classses and planning activities - if you want to help then perhaps you can cook for visting leadership or help them get moved in". It was like a light switch that had been turned out - people felt devalued and alientated by these cold, arrogant people who were supposedly "salted men of god". Twig attendance dwindled as did class enrollment. Of course to top it off , the visiting HQ leaders blamed it on us local believers - said we were smoking marijuana and had allowed the adversary to tear down the momentum. It was all manufactured and bogus and we knew it. It was the local believers who had built it all up - we did it locally with the WOWs in that area - hell we TOOK them witnessing - they got off easy. but the "pros" from HQ completely alienated everyone. The area never again experienced a significant level of new class takers at least until my departure around 85. Of course general Way membership had started to decline by then also.

Masterherbalist said: People who, as Dr. Christopher used to say, "eat under their own fig tree" and eat according to the season. But how many of us really do that? >> Eating food products indigenous to one's geographical situation has been promoted since I can remember. Some of the communes I knew about ,way back when, were deeply into this concept - I can't say it was consistently applied cause when you are hungry you will eat food grown on Mars. And famished hippies will eat at the Burger King without hesitation if there is nothing else around though we ,err I mean THEY, would order to-go to avoid being seen in such a place. The guy from the 80s TV show "A-Team" , Dirk Benedict, wrote a book which detailed his fight against cancer using such an approach - eating regional, seasonal foods. All that said there are an enormous number of variables at work relating to life span. Like Simon I have relatives who were born on a farm and never left - they primarily ate food grown by themselves and no one else. One lived to be 105 , one died at 35 of a heart attack whereas most retired from life in their mid to late 70s - the national average. (Actually the guy who lived to be 105 was a life time boozer and smoker of unfiltered cigarettes). What to say about eating food grown in your back yard ? well its economical and probably instills a sense of pride and accomplishment though I don't know sceintifically that this is a key variable in influencing lifespan. The only scientifically proven life extension technique of which I know is exercise. Make no mistake - diet is essential to health its just that I cannot accept oft repeated tales of longevity based on eating one type or one family of food because there are no major scientific studies which isolate this concept as a primary variable. This doens't mean that its not a good approach just that they can't *prove* that it is. There are often genetic propensities at work which outweigh some of our daily habits and there are genetics "triggers" which can get pulled by to introduce a disease state into the body. As we age the likelihood of one of these triggers getting pulled goes up which nonconicidentally leads to more frequent disease states in the aging body. I know that one of genetic science's primary aims at this time is to learn how to "turn off" such mechanisms arbitrarily without distrubing the balance. It could very well be that herbs and naturally occurring substances are used to prevent the activation of the trigger but its more difficult to turn it off once its started because it moves to every cell. So a more holistic treatment (gene therapy) is needed. Exercise is very, very important. I do think its wise to consult a licensed dietician who can tailor a diet for you. There are vegetarian deiticians out there who can help you should you be inclined.

Discussions on the merits of adopting the vegetarian lifestyle aside I can support the view that some adopt the lifestyle as a religion or cause. I live in a community that is chock full of vegetrarians and vegans and its one of the most contentious, competitive social scenes I have ever been around. These people can be near militant in their beliefs about what is okay (or not ) to put into your body. The trouble is - most of these people have no training in nutrition ,physiology, or anatomy but this doesn't stop them from advancing intricate theories and recommendations as if they were universally established truths. I've seen knock down drag outs between "super-vegans" arguing over the nutritional value of a certain type of wheat. And they say that meat eaters are tense. I'm aware that this is probably not representative of the larger group of people who simply want to eat better and are searching for ways to increase health as they transition from middle age. I know I am. But I don't want to go on retreats, listen to swamis, buy crystals, have my "ears candled", channel spirits, buy DeePak Chopra tapes etc just to get some sound advice on what to eat. Another thing that is annoying about the social scene is the "look" of the crowd. They all seem to be pasty, near skeletal, and frankly in need of a bath. The men insist on growing beards longer than those found in the band ZZ Top. I dont' know of some statistical correlation between beard length and vegetarianism but these seems to be a cultural correlation. I recommend a consultation with a licensed nutritonist/ dietician. Better yet find one who is a practicing vegetarian. That way you can avoid all the mystic BS and get straight up answers based on science instead of rumour or psycho-babble of some swami.

The class was a snore. Content issues aside it could have easily been edited down to a presentation of perhaps 7 sessions maybe even less. But then we would have been deprived of all the wonderful jokes and anectodes that we all had to pretend were funny. As I recall there was one session of PFAL (not counting Session 12) that was shorter than the others which used to mean that people got out earlier. But then some leaders got wise to that and started finding ways to fill up that time -keeping you there. Even in 75 the video look very dated to me - it lacked currency and was not appealing to me from a visual standpoint at all. I preferred the audio only setup - at least you could look around and people wouldn't "reprove" you for not looking at the TV screen.