diazbro

Speaking in general, I've said this before and I'll keep saying it- it blows my mind when people tolerate behavior in VPW that they would not even begin to tolerate in themselves, a spouse , a friend, coworker , or pastor. Unfortunately this behavior exists and I have friends in my area who still work very hard to protect their investment in TWI by claiming that stories of VPW's abuse were exaggerated and even that victims were somehow responsible for it. The phenomenon of VPW worship and idoaltry does exist partly in fact because people like Stacey Bowen said things like "you don't have JC around for an example but you do have Doctor Weirwille". Personally I think VPW was scum even in the so called "good ole days" though I realize that not everyone feels that way. thats fine. This isn't TWI so no one is obligated to feel as another.

I;ve said this before and I'll say it again- It blows my mind that people have tolerated behavior in VPW and LCM that they wouldn't even begin to tolerate in themeselves, their friends, parents, children, or co-workers. In my mind such people are idolizing these guys.

RottieGirl ? Have you forsaken dogs for martinis or is your new signature image just acknowledgement of the festive atmosphere ?

imablvr? said: in "TWI - Living in Love". Then I believed I didn't see miracles because I didn't believe enough.Blah, blah. TWI's requirements >> Ah yes. "The Way Living In Lies" Er "Love". My favorite piece of Way fiction. It would have been nice if I and others had seen even 1/16th of what that book described. And yes I was around in the "good ole days" and new some of those decribed in the book. It simply wasn't like that in real life. So there is some lingering wayspeak you will hear some use in relation to this book - "heart for god" as in "so and so had such a tremendous heart for God". I've heard it zillions of times and it was typically applied to someone in an effort to protect their image - "oh well I know he might have messed up but he has such a heart for god". This phrase has later been used to protect the image of VPW "well he did commit adultery but he had a big heart for God" . It appears to be one of the more enduring phrases from the WaySpeak catalogue.

steve said: Weren't there excellor sessions in B. G. Leonard's class for the Healing and Revelation manifestations? >> I've heard that BGL did have practice sessions in his class but I'm not sure how that would change what they Way did or didn't do. There was still , as far as I was concerned, a total lack of power in this area though instead of admitting it, TWI made up bulls**t "techniques" such as "reach into daddy's cookie jar". Yea. Real useful instruction wasn't it ? People were "asking father" what shoe they should put on first. If someone who took the BGL class wants to pipe up and talk about their experience with that then thats cool but the mere fact that BGL had practice/excellor sessions doesn't change how ineffectual TWI was when it came to explaining or more importantly DEMONSTRATING these manifestations.

George Aar said: People LOVE to talk about the time they prayed for so-and-so's headache or cold and then it IMMEDIATELY went away! What they're not so eager to do is DEMONSTRATE that healing ability in the here and now. >> Amen to that ! I heard so much TALK about how so-and-so was delivered and how VPW "delivered a believer" and how someone else "cast out devil spirits" from someone but in 6 years with TWI I could NEVER verify any of this. I always found it quite odd that they had "excellor" sessions for the Foundational and Intermediate classes but not for the Advanced class. Why was that ? Maybe they were talking a load of trash and had zero clue as to how to make that work ? For a "ministry" so concerned with detail and accuracy they sure laid out vague and ambiguous information on how people were to operate , for example, discerning of spirits. They said stuff like "Just reach up into Daddy's Cookie jar". That just tells you how clueless they were. They didn't have the slightest idea as to how to deal with those manifestations and also accounts for the lack of people who could demonstrate those manifestations. No. They just made up bulls**t stories instead. I recall one time when I was really ill and I wanted to be better so I figured that I could ask my roomate , who was an alleged spiritual heavy, to minister to me. It caught him way off guard. Why ? I don't really know but in general this guy was doing all the correct Way things and had the explicit support of local leaders yet he was perplexed when I asked him to minister to me. So it was like so generic and full of wayspeak that I began to wonder if there was even an original thought in this guys' head. When he finished up he was real dismissive and acted like he wanted to get as far away from me as he possibly could. Of course I still felt just as bad and regretted the whole experience. So what I learned was that even the most "salted" couldn't do very much. Of course the classic Way viewpoint on this would be "your heart was hard and your believieng wasn't up to snuff" but that was such an overused statement. And of course when VPW got cancer his suck up yes men lied about it and covered it up. And later when VPW died they didn't rail on him and cut him down talking about his "lack of believing". No he was judged by a different standard. That was such crap. TWI was an impotent ministry despite all the potential that young, energetic people brought to it. There was enromous postive energy and had there been any real power we would still be operating it now instead of talking about the lack of it. The problem is with TWI and its whacked leaders. Always has been.

Lightside said: The way never taught this: Speak in tongues right now Take action, you move your mouth, your tongue, and God gives you the words, a language you do not know. gorge aar: That is a miracle, a miracle in front you you, instantly. >> Lightside. Speaking only for myself. I was led into SIT long before I encountered WOWs, Twigs, or any other agent of TWI. I'm not here to debate the authenticity of SIT but just to say that TWI in no way,shape, form or fashion had a monopoly on SIT. In fact , given that VPW plagiarized (a reality that even the most stubborn VPW loyalists on this board are now willing to acknowledge), its crystal clear that VPW's "teachings" existed long before there was a PFAL and before VPW even knew about them. My point is that if one considers the act of SIT as a miracle then one cannot give credit to TWI for this. They didn't/don't OWN this manifestation. Never did and never will. [This message was edited by diazbro on December 22, 2003 at 19:25.]

goey said: or "my dog's diarreah went away after I prayed for him" stuff. >> *laff* I never heard of that one !

So on Waydale and at Gspot there have been many threads on the topic of miracles and deliverance. Its always a mixed bag it seems. So my experiences with "miracles" and TWI: During my Way daze I never witnessed any healings, miracles, or deliverances. None ,not one , never. But lord knows that I heard many tall tales about the blind seeing again, limbs growing back, even some dead people being rasied from the dead but ALL of these stories were told of someone else- usually a friend of a friend, with a kind of urban myth vibe. Of course Way celebs such as VPW always figured heavily into some of these tales - "yea VPW cast the spirits from this guy and he was able to walk again after 10 years of paralysis, isn't that great ?". Well sure its great ....but only if it REALLY happened. I set about tracking down some of these people who were supposedly miraculously delivered. Since these stories were abundant I started holding people accountable by saying"So whats the name of the person ? Where can I find him/ her ? I'd love to hear the story - it would help my believing". So not ONCE did any body give me anything concrete or useful to go on. It was just evasive double-talk like "Well thats really a private matter" or "They are no longer standing with the ministry". Seems to me people delivered in such a grandioise fashion would be screaming to the world about their deliverance. At a HeartBeat festival I was going to ask VPW about one of these stories of deliverance but some local leaders forbade me to do so claiming that "he is very busy and needs to minister to the body". Stupid me for even mentioning it. I should have gone right up to him and said "Hey I heard you ministered to someone and his arm grew back. I'd like to hear about it". What the hell would have been wrong with that ? But no. local leaders said things like "God gets the glory not anyone else so Doctor doesn't like to talk about those things". Sounds to me like the bullsh**ters were protecting the ace bullsh**ter. In conclusion I must say that I did encounter some pretty wild situations BEFORE my time with TWI. And perhaps 6 months into my Way experience a buddy of mine and myself saw something pretty neat but this experience was based on information and teaching we had received BEFORE we were with TWI. we even told some people at twig about what we both saw though instead of supporting it or being interested in it they criticized the whole thing "You are opening your mind to devil spirits", blah, blah,. So I used to hear local people talking about things like "I was really sick with a 104 degree fever but I had to be there for the PFAL class so my WOW brother prayed for me and three days later I was totally well!". I often wondered if they were they for real ? did they really think that was a miracle ? Perhaps it was simple desperation to actually experience a mircale that people lowered their threshold for what actually constitutes a mircale. [This message was edited by diazbro on December 20, 2003 at 16:05.]

TWI is an ambassador for itself , its classes, and programs. Concerns about helping the community and assisting the poor and chronically ill are non existent. People who aren't interested in taking classes are shown the door and those who "stand" with TWI who would offer dissenting opinions, even in the spirit of reasonable debate, are quickly silenced and are also shown the door if they don't keep their mouths shut.

Al Poole said: When was the last time you got that involved in someones life??? When was the last time someone looked you in the eye and said, "I'm probably alive because of you," "You saved my life." >> Actually after I left TWI and became involved with other churches and organizations who provide volunteer labor to the community and have real outreach programs including ministering to the poor and handicapped, I heard it on a regular basis. During TWI I was told to avoid people who were indigent or who couldn't "believe enough for the PFAL donation". In contrast I've seen churches of like 200 people do more work for people and the surrounding community than TWI has in its entire history. In my experience TWI never helped anyone without the expectation that they would sign up for PFAL and in turn recruit others. And TWI holds its local community in total contempt. In my opinion TWI and its so called outreach programs are counterfeits to the services offerred by lots of churches (even those "evil trinity-believing" ones). I always laughed when people told stories about how hard their WOW years were. Damn. What about missionaries - people toughing it out in 3rd world villages, helping people carve out a way of lifeh. THATS helping someone. TWI is nothing in comparison to this. Its a joke.,

Stupid Way Stories ? That PFAL and RTHS were authored by VPW.

johniam said: All this doesn't guarantee anything good or bad for the future, but CRF has wows (lights), an advanced class, and is planning to start a corps type program. >> I'm genuinely sorry to hear that. This is no joke. To me this is like hearing that some kid whose grandparents were involved in the Mafia decided to re-embrace a contentious, arrogant, condescending lifestyle even after he knew he could carve out a great life without it. Emulating TWI is not a method to greatness or peace no matter how "real" or "genuine" the effort. God is much, much bigger than TWI and its narrow view on the "Body" and how it should function. Keep in mind that TWI and its structure was conceived to honor VPW and his desires. Concerns about assisting humanity and delivering the average joe were not of import. It never was. The whole "foundational","intermediate", "advanced" concept was arbitrary and no where in the Bible do we see anyone adopting such an artificial construct. This whole "Class" thing was designed to route money into the bank accounts of people who have proven themselves to be lower than paramecia or amoeba. If you wanna teach people about the bible and witness - let your life do that. There is absolutely no need for people to "join up" to any church or cause to prove that they are loyal to God. There is no need to numb people's minds with endless minutae to justify the existence of VPW or LCM. Its like that proverbial "Stop sign". People keep stopping at it even though its gone. TWI is the same way - its old wineskins dude - move on and live the balance of your life without the bondage. [This message was edited by diazbro on December 08, 2003 at 20:51.] [This message was edited by diazbro on December 08, 2003 at 20:52.]

Jbarrax said: When it was tested and found to be effective, a drug company synthesized it, PATENTED it and sold it as trimarin(?). This cause no small stink because a private company is making a fortune off of public funded medical research. >> Understand that the patent applies to the synthetic process and its end product. They cannot patent the herb or prevent others from developing medicines based on it (as long as they don't use the same process). Govenment funding is at the heart of most university research and the expectation is that the results of those studies will be openly shared and available. What people/agencies do with those results can be used to form the basis of patents. Anyone here can read those journals and commence new work based on those findings. This is nothing new and perhaps desireable given the alternative that the government would own the patent which means it would take centuries for them to get around to even trying to do something with it.

My two cents worth- First I don't really know MasterHerbalist very well though I think he/she has been a decent poster here and has made some good contribtutions. So my comments below are not directed at him/her in any way. I'm just speaking in general and relative to my own experience. Clearly , herbs and plants are fundamental to many medical treatments and medicines though these substances alone or in the wrong amounts can many times produce undesireable or insignificant effects. But that doesn't negate the utility of a given plant that might be useful developping treatments say for seizures. And there are of course cultures such as the Chinese who have a deep, deep knowledge and respect for herbal treatments though chinese physicians are usually very well trained and have centuries of information upon which to base their treatments. (See Bill Moyers' "Healing And The Mind" for loads of info on this). But Compare this to the typical Western herbalist who seems to embrace herbs only as part of the "New Age" movement which ,in my experience, is very lightweight not to mention notoriously unscientific. When I encounter an american "herbalist" they are almost always using store bought books as references and outside of that they have no practical experience ,( and certainly no medical training), in administering herbs for medicinal purposes. To be fair, people like Andrew Weil have approached this scientifically (though he is a Harvard M.D) and if you read his books you see that he strongly adovcates seeking out qualified help usually an M.D. so its not like he is giving to legitimacy to the lay man who advertises in some New-Age magazine as an "herbalist/shaman". Of course its these very people who name check Andrew Weil as if they were close buddies. Its quite possible of course that you need to separate the quick buck artists in the New Age movement from those who exist outside of that and perhaps have the misfortune of having their passionate interest in herbs associated with practitioneers of "Ear-Candling" or "Third Plane Reiki", or "Urban Shamanism". I'm sure there are some very knowledgeable herbalists out there but how would you know given that there are no licensing boards for this type of thing so you are pretty much reliant upon word-of-mouth ? I've had some sessions with a chinese physician who has prescribed teas for ailments which have defied typical western treatments. These aren't like simple teas either. I've got like 20 individual herbs and plants from which I make this foul,hellish broth that DOES work for me. Its not miraculous by any means but it helps. This fellow told me that he thinks that westerm medicine is most effective for treating acute situations and chinese medicine is effective for treating chronic problems. Together they make a potent combination. But I'm still skeptical of some johnny-come-lately,self-proclaimed expert who rattles off potion recipes like a bartender reciting whats in a given drink. Especially if they have only been studying the topic for like only three years

Mike said: I wish I had listened to Dr. Wierwille's frequent advice to master the collaterals. >> Oh me too ! Man if only I had done that I'm sure I would have reached my full potential. So let me tell you something wild. I heard a Sunday night teaching once and Dr accidentally belched during a teaching. At first I dismissed it as just a common biological function but God told me to work that tape over and over. And just this year I played the belch really slow and then I got revelation to play it backwards. Mike ! It was awesome. It was everything you had been saying contained in that one quick belch. Its a goldmine of spirtual knowledge. All this from a belch ! Imagine if he had broke wind what a cache of knowledge that would be. Unbeleivable spirtual knowledge lost in the air

Most people I know are very well aware of their imperfections and shotcomings. Of course this make some very insecure and they respond sometimes in unpredictable ways but any average thinking adult, even athiersts, knows that we were born into a world where people do bad things and sometimes those people are yourself and/or perhaps your friends All this to say that I don't know that by downplaying the Cross that people are going to forget about what Christ accomplished. I've known several denominations who don't mind the Dove symbol at all and there seems to be no particular "fetish" for the Cross though many sanctuaries have them. I always saw the Way's attitides towards the cross as a method to distance themselves from mainstream christianity. I had bible with a little cross on it and I took it to twig. No one said much about it though over time, I removed it, simly because I didn't see anyone else with one.

speaking in general.. I like to think that forgiveness is something you offer from a position of power and choice. I really believe that you should forgive someone only when THEY need it. For example God didn't need to forgive us because he was angry at us. He could go on living quite well without us. He didn't need to relieve mental stress from thinkng about how horrible we were. He saw that we "needed" it else He and humanity weren't going to make much progress in any type of future relationship. Also note that his forgiveness is offerred with the idea that we would start a relationship with Him. It signaled a transition into a more sublime form of co-existence between us and Him. Take your time with it and treat your forgiveness like a precious gift because it is ,but only when its authentically presented to someone who is happy to have it. And also we aren't God so we don't need to be giving wholesale forgiveness to people we barely know , or people long forgotten. Save it for those who need it and they will thank you for it when you give it. you'll know when they need it. also understand that God knew all the issues surrounding our need for his forgiveness. He knew just how bad off we were so his gesture was accomplished with a full understanding of our shortcomings. It definitely wasn't a token gesture. I've seen too many victims of TWI get talked out of the examination step wherein they should be taking full account of how badly someone hurt them so they can guage that impact and more importantly gain a knowledge of excactly what it is they are forgiving someone else for. In this fashion it won't be a token gesture either. You and the person you are forgiving can have confidence that its the real deal. Unfortunately there are some Way abusers who pressure others for forgiveness because they think thats a method for them to escape. [This message was edited by diazbro on November 15, 2003 at 18:42.]

oldisesman said: But it doesn't bother me. He shouldn't have...but I don't take it personally or hate him for it. I don't feel hate towards VPW. >> Your responses (not just the one above) suggest that there are only two choices for those acknowledging VPW's plagiarism - indifference or hatred. But in reality those (such as myself) who feel that VPW should be held accountable don't "hate him for it" either. But my principles won't allow me to let it slide since ,after all, he based his "ministry" on the works of someone else. Especially since VPW and TWI are supposed to be all about "intergrity" and "god's matchless word". It is frustrating when I encounter peope who will tolerate behavior in VPW that they wouldn't even begin to tolerate in a family member, co-worker,or a close friend.

Ookspear said: Did FCA use the athlete of the spirit as a metaphor for a Christian? Or did they use the popularity of athletes to further the Christian message? >> I haven't been active with FCA in at least 15 years so I don't know their current practices but I remember the following: FCA uses the medium of athletics to promote Christ. They are interdenominational and there are no services. On occasion they certainly have showcased high profile members (like Tarkenton) to promote the cause. Most always these people are current or former athletes. When I was young I had several coaches who were into FCA and they pointed out that the best trained athletes had something in common with JC - focus, perserverance, discipline, and courage. Of course they advanced the idea that the christian athlete could experience a deeper sense of joy via a spiritual relationship with God. Additionally you would be serving as an example to others. It could be a drag- having to hear your coach talk up the bible or making prayer mandatory at sporting events but over all the message was positive and I don't recall any of the coaches getting carried away with it. In fact some could preach the gospel to you before a game and half an hour later be cussing you up and down for dropping a pass.

Dot said: Other big foreheads leaping around in tights, truly it IS a scary world! >> *laff* Well I think that TWI can claim sole owenship of that idea - leaping around in tights while fighting devil spriits and amoebas. FCA didn't really have any productions quite like AOS and thank God for that.

Ckeer, I don't think anyone has the a problem with that assessment. Far from it since many have arrived at the same conclusion. Idea stealers are perhaps more shrewd at advancing ideas than they are at developing them. In any case it seems that the primary soure of disagreement here is how one should now consider VPW given his plagiarism. Which is something that most seem to acknowledge (but not all). Some would have us adopt a "well he passed on a good message , stolen or not" attitude while others want him to be held accountable for his deceit. Obviously some are in the middle and since VPW is deceased there isn't going to be much input from him. Speaking in general I think that is a good topic and I don't get tired talking about it since I think some people need to hear this information since maybe they have not heard it before or perhaps are just now beginning to consider that VPW wasn't really the biblical hotshot he claimed to be. Most already know that but many aren't ready to give up on that idea. In my local area I know some VPW hardcores who simply won't listen to criticism against VPW and they throttle it with all kinds of things like "you are talking bad about a dead man" yet they regularly trash deceased "cop outs" and even suggest that their negative believing had something to do with it. In fact I think the larger share of VPW loyalists and preservationists don't come to GSpot even to lurk since its likely that they will see bad things posted about their "Father in the Word".

Hey so I wanted to point out that as the AOS thing started to get hot I pointed out to my local leaders that there were undeniable similarities between that idea and the Fellowship Of Christian Athletes which was founded in 1954. See www.fca.org and check out the sight. Here is a quote: "Since 1954, the Fellowship of Christian Athletes has been challenging coaches and athletes on the professional, college, high school, junior high and youth levels to use the powerful medium of athletics to impact the world for Jesus Christ" Sound kind of familiar ? Using sports as a metaphor for the christian walk ? I was active in this organization growing up and I'm quite c ertain that LCM would have had some enocunter with this group. Famous athletes like Fran Tarkenton supported the outfit so it was far from obscure. Whenever I wanted to comapre the AOS concept to FCA I got silenced real quick. People were telling me that FCA was the counterfeit to TWI's truth and they simply would't hear me when I mentioned that FCA was in exsitence long before AOS came around.

Also. Relative to paying for biblical/religious classes. I don't have a problem with kicking in money to cover costs and paying for materials though I think PFAL was a bit pricey. At the time one of the class leaders said "well we have to cover the cost of renting the room and the refreshments". At the time I kind of bought so I didn't really put up much fuss about it. I remember someone telling me that PFAL was once like $300 ! I would have had no problems walking from that. I wonder how many people worldwide signed on for that price ? Guess thats when they bought some aviation equipment huh ? I can't remember the last time I laid out money for a church related class or seminar though when I've felt inclined I've certainly thrown some dough into an offerring plate. I have spent money at the bookstore on audio tapes and books but thats hardly a class.

Even when I had PFAL for the first time I noticed that the teachings on believing were similar to the late 50s/early 60s pop psyschology offerred by authors such as Norman Vincent Peale, Maxwell Maltz, Dale Carnegie, and Earl Nightingale. Some of these guys still have lasting influence even today. Most of this material was aimed squarely at salesmen and those in a position to deal with the public. My dad had books and records by all of the authors mentioned above which is how I came to learn about them. Not all of them were strictly christian in their approach. NVP was probably the most concerned with believing relative to christianity though all of them used biblical references. Maltz's "PsychoCybernetics" did suggest that a person with a negative self image could in fact sabotage his own life though there was nothing about being able to bring down ruin on someone else via one's negative believing. Of course VPW clearly taught that a worriesome Mother was responsible for the death of her child. That never made any sense to me and I never bought it then and I don't buy it now. Anyway the point is that I knew that the teachings on believing did not represent new material. Frankly I'm amazed that more people don't recognize VPWs teachings on believing as being influnced from those popular books which were published well in advance of PFAL and supporting material. I know some of you are certainly old enough (not trying to rile anyone *laff*). I'm a fan of maintaining a postive self-image if for no other reason that it results in better morale and optimism. Even if it does nothing beyond that then I'm happy.