diazbro

Johnny Lingo said: I cried and cried when Old Yeller died and asked my Mom to explain it to me over and over, but in the overall, even though I had no "requisite knowledge to put it in perspective", it was good for me: >> Yes I think many cried about Old Yeller but I think its rather easy for children to relate to the pain associated with seeing a cherished pet/animal being put down. Lots of children have a context for understanding the story of Old Yeller. But a child seeing the systematic torture and eventual exectution of a man is something completely different at least from my point of view. Lots of adults weren't prepared for the range of emotions they experienced from watching TPOTC. Children aren't going to be any better prepared. I think we all know that in about 6 years that this movie will most likely be showing on TBS right along with ShawShank Redemption, Rush Hour Part 12, Devil's Advocate and the other 4 movies that they show over and over. So its not like its the be all end all flick. Nor is it the most violent. My problem is that at least in my locale I've seen too many parents haul the kids off to this movie as a substitute for church and parental talks about religion and spirituality. I don't think that this is the rule but I've seen it enough as to make me wonder. Obviously there are children who have a genuine desire and interest in seeing this movie though perhaps some are just curious about the violence. Others know the story and just want to match it up with that they heard.

Johhny Lingo said: Why Diazbro! So nice to learn of a parent who does everything right! >> Yea isn't it ? Though did you claim to be a perfect parent ? No I don't think so. Neither did I. Perhaps you'll tell me who you had in mind when you wrote down that thought. Once you do I'd like to talk to that person. I've got plenty of questions. You were the one who made the wholesale reference to "the littel [sic] ingrates" with "pampered little American lives". Perhaps because I don't consider my kids to be in that category you might have felt that to be an implied claim of parental perfection. >> But ya know, there are a lot of parents who have already "missed the mark" with their kids, and so it won't hurt them to see how the only perfect man who ever lived had a "little" unfairness dished out to him, and how he "opened not his mouth" in response.. Actually I suggest that its the parents who might benefit more from the experience more than the children. Lots of parents are far more selfish and self serving than they allege their children to be. Perhaps if these adults contemplated the message of the movie and attempted to apply some of that perspective to their relationship with their children then they wouldn't have to drag the kids to see TPOTC in an effort to compensate for having "missed the mark". Obviously not every parent taking their children to see this movie are doing so for these reasons. >> And, we are talking about the crucifixion of our Lord Jesus Christ here, and ya know, "torture unto death" is usually a fairly violent thing, >> Well obviously. Thats the whole point. Its a violent movie. Will an 8 year old be able to look past the violence at the deeper message ? Do they even have the requisite knowledge and ability to put it into perspective ?

Johnny Lingo said: Ohh...People used to take their kids to public hangins and be-headings. This aint gonna hurt em none at all. Let 'em see it and maybe the littel ingrates will learn something about being thankful for once in their pampered little American lives... >> How is taking a child to see what is undeniably a violent movie about one slice of the Christ story going to make them ,as I asked in my original post, embrace/convert to christianity or perhaps , as you said, "learn something about being thankful for once in their pampered little American lives..." Also ,one would hope if the parent were doing their job in the first place that they wouldn't have to take them anywhere , much less to a violent movie , to learn to be thankful. Spoiled children get that way because of parents.

What about the kids in relation to this movie ? Its astonishing to me that those parents who forbid their children to view violent movies or play bloody video games would make an exception for this movie. Yes of course I understand that many christian parents wish to impress upon their children the extent of Jesus' sacrifice but when you see children who are obviously scared and totally uncomfortable with the depictions then you have to consider if this is really a good thing or not. I could be wrong but such parents seem to have the idea that having their children watch this movie is somehow going to convert them to christianity. I would not agree. I don't think the movie is going to convert anyone let alone children who have been more or less forced to see it. There are many people who aren't even christian who are going to see the movie for a variety of reasons but some of the fundamentalists think that this is gonna save the souls ! I have no idea why.

greg said: our lives as born-again believers and that quality of life we live is based on how well we walk that word in our life >> I take exception to this remark. Faithful christians endure hardship and tribulation. God never guarateed an easy street for any of his followers. The book of Job makes very clear that we will all encounter bad winds in life (hopefully not to the extent that Job did of course). TWI taught that you could judge a man by his "fruit" thus if bad things were happening they (way leaders) quickly suggested any number of things - he wasn't abundantly sharing enough, he was out of fellowship, or (under LCM) you were "a homo" or "sympathetic to homos". Of course should any Way leader endure hardship it was concealed from the rank and file (remember VPW's eyepatch and the associated coverup ?) to keep the Way machine humming along. A different set of rules were applied to Way leaders - they got off easy whereas the twig level people were criticized for their lack of believing and should some misfortune come their way it was because they had allowed the adversary to penetrate that hedge of protection. Its difficult for me to even continue like this-I really would like to slap the faces of some of the pr**k leaders who said things like this about people who were just experiencing things that happen to any of us. What makes the christian walk a noble walk is the courage to deal with all the BS that life will toss at you and still come out with a steely faith. A God who promises nothing but roses in life is clearly trying to buy your trust and friendship. Eternal life is our reward. There is nothing in the bible which guarantees that we will live a stress free life on earth or that the more adherenet to gods word you are the more obvious it will be to your neighbor. So no our quality of life in no way reflects our situation before god. My undestanding of the bible indicated that poor, rich, sick, whateve are all able to participate in salvation and , furtheremore, these people might continue to exist , in this life, as they did before at least on the surface. TWI tried to deceive people into thinking otherwise. Way leaders were sheltered and they controlled any and all personal information (as they still do) to make you think that they never had any problems when in reality they had just as many as any other person. [This message was edited by diazbro on March 01, 2004 at 22:25.] [This message was edited by diazbro on March 01, 2004 at 22:26.]

I don't see any cloak-and-dagger stuff going on here. Rocky has been banned from the political forums and presumably as a way around that ban he posted an obvious political topic in the open forum. He gets reported and the post gets moved. So freakin what ? There is hardly a case for martydom here and there is even less a case for abuse of the feature used to contact moderators. Its a choice we all have and I have no idea how often others use it. Nor do I care. I have never used it but that certainly doesn't mean those who do are somehow "cheating" or getting away with something. Hell I might even report my own post.

Lets talk about the false accusations that TWI made against people, churches, and organizations in general.... for every 1 false accusation made against TWI that I've ever seen there are at least 3 that TWI had going on against somebody somewhere. They were a regular slander machine.

Mandi said: I have already posted on this thread that I was told by top leadership that I would die, the adversary would kill me if I left the field.. Good post Mandi. But.....you know ? The word "satan" wasn't used in their threat. I mean to say that that because they said to you "the adversary" would kill you and NOT that "SATAN" would kill you then , according to OldiesMan , it is TOTALLY different. By the logic of OldiesMan (which in this case bears an astonishing resemblance to that of many Way leaders and their suckups), we MUST dismiss VPW and his representatives from ANY and ALL responsibility in suggesting that we would die, be killed, or be worthy of death should we seek an exit from TWI. Why ? Because they didn't use the EXACT word "Satan" in their threat.Its all about words and exact usage so take a check up from the neck up next time you post bad things about VPW !

This is a joke right ? VPW says that leaving TWI is in God's eyes "worthy of death" (a very violent one I might add - nooses and drowning?) and you don't see a problem with that preferring rather to point out that it didn't use an EXACT phrase "satan would kill us" ? I think you are trying really hard to avoid the issue here by worrying about words.

oldiesman said: If you're suggesting the same thing Tom said, that Dr. Wierwille said 'satan would kill us' if we left the Way, please furnish proof of that. I'm not calling anyone a liar, just requesting proof. Thank you. >> I heard with my own ears from the mouth of VPW that those who would turn their back on TWI , especially the so called salted, could look forward to a fate like that described in MAtthew 18 verse 6: But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. VPW was saying that we had a calling and responsibility to be ambassadors and that any lack of committment would frustrate the word over the world mission and that the "little ones" were those unbelievers who had yet to hear the word. So a faltering WOW would , in Gods eyes, be running out on his or her commitment and be worthy of death. That I heard this from VPW is a certainty and it does not represent something I heard from someone else who might have heard it from another. I got it from the horse's mouth. And this teaching later showed up on a Sunday tape so I would not at all be surprised if others hadn't heard it also I first heard this around 1975 though had come to understand that this feeling was around long before that time when at branch meetings we were routinely warned about the consequences of "going outside of the hedge of protection" that TWI provided us. Of course this teaching later mutated into the infamous "greasespot by midnight" teaching so often used by LCM at least when he wasn't talking about his other favorite topic of homosexuality.

excathedra said: i'm sorry to say i don't like any religion. do you think that's a waybrain element ? really ? >> Well I'm not sure. There is the situation wherein some people develop an aversion to the christian religion (and maybe all religions) as a result of their time in TWI. In effect TWI experience has ruined the concept of christianity for this person at least for a time. If this aversion is largely a reaction to the bad Way experiences then maybe its useful to consider that not all denomintaions (or religions) function with the treachery and decit that so well defined way leadership. Remember that TWI was a well oiled machine designed to maximize the prosperity of the organization and its trustees even at the expense of the welfare of its most devoted followers. Not all churches are like this and in my experience most are not. Do they have the potential to be ? Sure. But hopefully , because of what I (or anyone else) learned in TWI ,by negative example, we'll know well in advance that something isn't right. However I think its entirely reasonable and advisable to take time off from religion and its demands especially if you are still in the process of evaluating the damage caused by TWI experience. In this case there is no need to mask those very real problems by embracing another system of worship that claims to remove all pain. ITs for this reason that I've typically viewed the splinter groups as decompression chambers for those exiting TWI. Coming out of TWI into the cold light of day is a bit much so the splinters look nice and appealing and perhaps offer some solace at least for a time. Some eventually leave while others don't. You'll have to ask them why as I can only speculate.

Keep in mind that TWI taught that any worship outside of TWI was "of the devil". This included christian services in mainstream denominations. By this yardstick then any and all who didn't worship under the control of TWI was in danger of becoming possessed (if they weren't already) and were worshipping satan though typically unaware. So anyone who still believes this Way teaching would never see it any other way - if christians outside of TWI are basically worshipping "the god of this world" then of course they would consider a "witch" to be far worse than that. I think that there are a significant number of former Way people who still ,perhaps subsconsciosuly, hold the ideas stated above and tend to see evil in any alternative religion and even in some common denominations. In my observation its one of the last elements of waybrain to leave.

After watching the Harry Potter movies I got a sense of deja vu back towards my Way daze. Basically I recall lots of people pushing the Advanced Class like it was a school for the spiritual warfare and various individuals were discussed as if they were wizards though no one would dare use that word of course. It was very much a competitive environment wherein some people would profess to be expert at "demon hunting" and others were particulaly adept at ministering healing while others were known for their excellent word of knowledge skills. Of course I don't think thats how the manifestations are to be considered but after TWI put its spin on them it did seem like a contest.

Speaking in general. Diets when combined with exercise are the most effective way to reduce weight and keep it off. Diets alone are merely temporary fixes and I don't know anyone who has kept off weight permanently just by dieting. They inevitably yo-yo up and down. On the other hand people who have chosen to make exercise part of their life have better fitness , more energy, and more success with diets than people who don't exercise. Looked at another way - people who exercise at least 3 times a week can usually indulge in things like sweets without noticeable impact to their physique. Not that this should be the goal of exercise butI know plenty of people who exercise just so they can eat pretty much whatever they want. For example I used to run alot and I could eat anything and not gain. When I stopped running as a result of an injury I started to put on weight. I'm sure others here have had the same experience. People who just diet and continue to avoid exercise are always at the mercy of whats on the days' recipe list and are doomed forever to live off a limited menu. ITs no wonder that hardcore dieters I meet seem to be so irritable. This odd thing is that when I talk to my deiting friends about exercise they look at me like I'm saying dirty words and they won't even consider getting on a treadmill or use a jump rope. Its like they have eliminated exercise as a possible aid to help them achieve their weight loss goals. they say things like " I don't have time for that crap" which is bizarre. I simply do not understand that mentality and its no wonder that obesity is a major public health concern in the US. Regular, moderate exercise accomplishes so much for the physiology and while most people readily accept this concept they avoid doing it. While a low carb diet might result in more energy (though its usually the absence of sugar foods that promote more energy), exercise will do the same thing while trimming fat, improving cardio vascular health, improve muscle tone, and increasing emergy levels. While scientists have not found a fountain of youth its widely held that exercise is the closet thing we have to it. [This message was edited by diazbro on February 18, 2004 at 11:16.] [This message was edited by diazbro on February 18, 2004 at 11:36.]

The production was very stiff and square and seems to be aimed at aging baby boomers as there was absolutely nothing that would appeal to the youth of today. Damn, everybody looks so old now. Frankly I don't mind that TWI did this as it drew them out into the open and gave former followers a great oppurtunity to provide feedback to others on just how treacherous and whacked TWI truly is. For the longest time they have been flying under the radar and have operated with some measure of secrecy but now that they've come up for air it makes them vulnerable.

LiftedUp said: "The next time someone says they would like to find God's perfect will for their lives and that they want to be in the center of His will, send them to the center of His Word!" >> Well it might not be specifically wayspeak but as far as I'm considered, its mere preacher-babble which is typically used to invoke a few amens. The hard part of this statement is determining just how to "going to the center of His Word". There aren't any specifics to help the person along.

So VPW said that we weren't supposed to focus on Revelation. It was *just* "for our learning" right ? In many ways you could get the idea that Revelation wasn't even part of the bible given the total lack of attention towards that book. My opinion is that the neo-psychedelic nature of Revelation presented a unique challenge to VPW's "intellectual" ability (I'm trying to be polite here). And because there wasn't much in terms of pre-existing material to ripoff , he basically ignored the whole idea of the apocolypse and focused on the more tangible references of the new testament. Clearly VPW was not of the beatnik or hippy movements, so dealing with abstraction made him uncomfortable. And before some VPW loyalist makes references to his "works" in the Holy spirit field let me remind you that VPW lifted /plagiarized heavily from the works of Stiles and Leonard which suggests that he lacked imagination (except perhaps in a business sense) and stuck to concepts that resonated , perhaps by chance, with a young, idealistic generation looking to improve themselves and the world. I recall attempting to engage many Way leaders in a meaningful discussion on 666, the antichrist and such but I was always put-off and told that it wasn't "profitable" to focus on that since we wouldn't be on the planet anyway. I found it most odd that TWI would choose to functionally ignore an entire book in the Bible. Hey ! "Either its all God's word or it isn't , right ? Either he lied or he told the truth ? Which is it ?" So what gave VPW the right to pan Revelation ? Given VPW's fascination with "accuracy and precision" its "logical" that we should study the beginning and end of what is inarguably one of the most influential books in human history. but no. Because VPW said to ignore Revelation then that was the end of it. If you hold VPW to his own standard then you can't just throw out the book of revelation ! Oh But he did...

About the only positive thing I will say about PFAL is that it ,in a modest fashion, raised my consciousness to consider that the bible was a deeper book than it appeared to be and that spending time studying might be useful. On the other hand I was pretty young and assummed that TWI was the only organization that had such an approach though I was wrong. Even when I was the most dedicated of Wayfers I ran into people actively involved in missionary work who routinely told me stories of deliverance and how they too were concerned with the deeper truths of the bible. So I had to consider that TWI wasn't the one stop shop for truth that it claimed to be. And of course later when I left I was sure that it was most certainly not a source of any truth just propoganda to keep people donating money to keep it all alive. And PFAL also taught me about pyramid marketing schemes. They presented PFAL it as the one and only class you would need to "tap in" to God's abundant power but not even before you were done with PFAL they were talking up the Intermediate class and the other classes RM, W&U, DWA, etc and of course the WOW program. So they would say "well PFAL is great to get started but to REALLY see God at work in your life you need to take the "fill-in-the-blank" class ! Thats where God REALLY blows your mind" And so on and so on.

No I would not. I wish her well but I have enough trouble managing care for my aging parents. Besides TWI has gotten enough of my money and while its unfortunate that it appears that they have given Mrs. W the boot it still doesn't change the fact that she lived off of my money already as have many way leaders. In fact anyone who ever tithed has supported Way leaders and has enabled it to thrive and prosper financially. VPW died a rich man and its surprising that he didn't take steps to insulate his family from the possible future hostile action from the trustees. If one believes the POP document then one would have thought that he would have made a move to take care of things.

yes well I asked this question while I was in TWI and was told that revelation indicated who was to be ordained. I got in around the time that the Corps program was becoming the recuritment program for future leaders but a few people slipped into the oridanation crowd without having been Corps. but as the 70s progressed then I noticed that your basically had to be corps to get ordained so it shot holes in the revelation theory. They made it seem like any devoted christian could receive the ordination but in reality you had to jump through the Way hoops to get that "prize". Its kind of like once you made it clear to your leadership that you weren't going WOW or Corps then they put you on a list (beginning with the letter "s" as in *hit list) and you ascension in the ranks of TWI would be capped at the local level.

Linda Z said: 'Maggie Muggins' was the creation of Fredericton-born teacher, writer and storyteller Mary Grannan. In the 1940s, Maggie's imaginary adventures were featured in the popular radio series 'Maggie Muggins.'" (Copyright 2002 Canadian Broadcasting Co.) I'm not sure how this lets VPW off the hook or somehow clouds the issue of plagiarism which has very real definitions in academia and in publishing. The case for VPW's plagiarism hardly rests on his use of the names "snowball pete" or "maggie muggins".

George Aar said: Same thing goes for hard-core communists, environmentalists, or "whole food" nazis. >> Man there are a couple of hard core health food stores in my area and from what I can see they do quite well given that their markup is outrageous though the customers don't seem to mind paying triple the cost for "organic" bananas. Anyway I'm not here to debate the merits of "whole foods" living but I can definitely support the idea that "whole foods nazis" exist. I usually call them "yeasty people". Sterotypically one thinks that these people are sedate, peaceful people when it seems to be the exact opposite. I've seen fights at these places , people verbally abusing each other over whose master is the best, religious wars about buddhism vs agnosticism, people claiming that all food is tainted with chemicals placed by the government. I understand that there are some excellent examples of healthy living and that eating well is important. But just don't expect to find many of these good examples at the health food stores - at least in my area.

I think sex is wonderful and even as I get older it gets definitely better (perhaps its just a matter of practive ;>) even if the frequency isn't what it was. There is nothing more stress relieving than a , well you know what. I'd much rather spend some intimate time with the special someone then down beers at a bar after work to relieve stress.

I don't know where VPW or any dead person is right now though I do know that some of the more dedicated VPW loyalists use VPW's death as block to any meaningful conversation about his "works" claiming that any criticism of VPW is horribly wrong since he is dead and cannot speak in his own defense. Of course this does not stop the very same people from speaking poorly of others who have passed away. Sort of a double standard isn't it ?

Linda Z said: No, I can't imagine that at all. But I can imagine that wherever you go, whether to a twi fellowship or the RC church, God can reach and teach you if you're ready to listen, despite how screwed up the organization is. >> But to remain in the dysfunctional organization ,especially with that knowledge, is to be personally dysfunctional..... Many old timers I know romanticize the "good ole days" at the expense of reality and usually attempt to rewrite their personal "way" history to make it convenient for them to deny that a particular event occurred thus relieving them of the responsibility of not having done something about it. Its very easy for such people to let VPW off the hook for swilling Drambuie and copping a feel off a fawning WOW if they have convinced themselves that it didn't happen or perhaps felt that because of his stature he was entitled. Or worse yet that the fawning WOW "really wanted it". And of course if a person didn't see it actually happen and only heard about it then they can discredit the source as being bitter or even possessed. Sure I've heard lots of stories about how nice and charming VPW could be. I've spoken with him and can support these points of view but LIKE DUH ! He was a con man and undeniably effective especally with young, idealistic youth looking to make a difference in this world and in their personal lives. Thus its hardly a surpise that many people had a good impression of him and bought into the whole MOG concept. For many it was their first experience with any type of deliberate self improvement and VPW seemed an particularly able guru. Long before the peak of TWI he obviously plagiarized the works of others and in the process built an empire that made lots of money. Whether or not he anticipated this or was personally prepared to deal with all that came with it is subject to debate but he left this world a rich man and lived the life of cult celebrity. And he certainly enjoyed his "man of god" status and did little to discourage those who would exalt him and worship him. He enjoyed the massive attention given him by his "yes men" and was acutely aware of the endless preparations that took place before his visit to a given area but rather than inject a dose of relaity and humility into the situation he chose rather to encourage the behavior even to the point of employing a presedential air which was later taken to ridiculous extremes under LCM. As our "man of god" and "Teacher" it was reasonable to believe that he would come to minister to us and help us solve problems in our lives when it was quite the opposite - we served him and in the process our lives got more busy and complicated because we had to take time out of an already busy schedule to accomodate him and his entourage. Frankly I've got the expectation that we haven't heard the worst of the abuse stories since many of the former Way clergy have kept a tight lip on their involvement with VPW (perhaps to avoid possible legal action from former followers). If some of these people would share their knowledge and admit what many of us already know (that their primary loyalties were to VPW over and above anyhting else) then it would enable lots of people to resolve longstanding issues and make TWI accountable for its poor treatment of people who helped to make it rich. No one here is pefect and we served TWI in some capacity in the past but even though I met some cool people during that time I give them the credit - not TWI. Some have the mentality that if they met even one nice person while in TWI then its *because* of TWI. Plenty of soldiers made good friends on the battlefield but I bet they are more than happy to take that freindship to some place less dangerous. I feel/felt the same way about TWI - it was a hellish place and I can separate some of the good people from that organization. [This message was edited by diazbro on January 03, 2004 at 15:04.] [This message was edited by diazbro on January 03, 2004 at 15:08.]