diazbro

This was their attempt at attaching their name to something that is universally accepted , at least in christian circles, as being divine and undeniably positive. TWI taught that the counterfeit will always mimic the genuine and in many ways, even be identical to genuine but there is always something that gives it away. Little did I realize at the time that that teaching applied more to TWI itself than any other thing they were talking about

I think the posed question about Mrs Weirwille's home is a legitimate question and I'm guessing that had it been posed by someone other than PR ,who noncoincidentally authored a recent controversial thread, then the responses would have been a bit different and perhaps more numerous.

Its typically the case in television series that only a minority of the actors on a given show wind up with a significant, visible career so there are many "Ziering"s out there. Also keep in mind that its entirely possible for character actors to be well compensated for various roles to the extent that they might not need to work and given the fiercly competitive and political nature of show business many are happy to get those residual checks and live out the rest of their lives doing whatever. Obviously there are some who never made the big money and had to transition to other more traditional forms of employment. Plus there are drugs and other distractions which might make certain actors unemployable or at the least very hard to work with hence they aren't extended invitations for other gigs. A clear minority of all registered Screen Actor Guild members actually make a complete living off of ONLY acting. Most have to supplement their income with side jobs.

Watered Garden said: The Howard Allen story is true. I was there and I don't feel called upon to discuss it, but he was indeed in dire straits, did indeed recover. >> Yes but if one claims to have witnessed a miracle then its reasonable to assume that people would like to know the details. So many of the so called Way mircales were never explained. I was once told NOT to ask someone ,who was rumored to have been miraculously delivered , about their miracle. "Its between them and God". Well thats all well and good but it doesn't do much for those curious about it. In the bible those who were miraculously delivered spoke out about it. In TWI it was all rumours with very little proof. I'm not at all saying that you didn't witness HA's miracle but I don't think it odd if people wanted to know about it or hear the details.

I find that OldiesMan employs a willful type of ignorance which allows him to avoid having to deal with the abuse issues in TWI. If he can convince himself (and others) that what most clearly recongize as abuse is in fact not or is perhaps facbriacted and exagerrated information designed to besmsirch the name of VPW, then he can continue to preserve his notions that TWI wasn't "that bad" and that VPW wasnt' "that bad" either. Its apparent that those who still burn a candle for the VPW legacy will always be serving that memory at the expense of reality and logic which is ironic since VPW alleged to be a champion of logic and independent thinking. OM reminds me of an early Gspot poster known as "PeterLag" who would talk about how "unbelieving women" would "vex him" because they would tempt him sexually and he would at times give in to those temptations though because they were unbelievers and he was a "son of god" it was okay in the sight of God. And then he would suggest that this is what happened to VPW over time -that promiscuous women (unbeleiving as well as way followers) would attempt to divert him from his appointed task though God would forgive him since his calling was so high and mighty.

Oh here is another one. So you guys remember "Takit" right ? The Way rock band aimed at young folks ? Dave Garibaldi, Danny Hoefer... So within that time frame Stevie Winwood's "Arc of a Diver" record was big and he had that song "while you see a chance take it". So this was presented as an example of how the adversary steals and mocks the one true god since SW "Stole" (via devilish influence) the phrase "take it" for use in his song.

There was a pretty large thread on Waydale called Way Urban Myths ... Wait maybe it was on Gspot at the outset. Well I can't remember but it was chock full of interesting stuff. Anyway here are some of my fave Way myths and legends: VPW was so "right on" in his walk that he could actually do things that for any other person would constitiute sin or being out of fellowship. His mind was renewed that strongly ! All famous rock musicians were seed especially John Lennon and Mick Jagger. VPW talked to the Devil once.. Not a lackey spirit but THE Devil. I only heard this story about twice and it was in the mid 70s. The guy who told me swore me to secrecy but assured me that it was "known" that Vic had been tempted by Satan much in the same way that Jesus had. By signing up people for PFAL at a rapid rate we could actually hasten the return of christ since that ,according to way teaching, would occur after the word was over the world. (I gues s PFAL was supposed to be a valid subsitute for the word ?) Later in the early 80s this teaching was abandoned. And of course my personal fave around 76 - that there was going to be an attempt made on the US governement. "Doctor" got revelation about it so we had prayer vigils. Of course when absolutely nothing like that happened we were told to be thankful that we were in such a great ministry headed by a wonderful man such as VPW who cared enough about us to share that revelation.

A slight change of subject but still related. I live near a large health food store (a couple in fact) that enjoys a booming business. Aside from offerring organic foods there is a cafe, a vitamin section , a book section, and an area for small discussions which is typically used when an "expert" in a given alternative medicine field strolls through town to promote a book or video. I dated someone who frequented the place so I got to experience this place. I've made the following observations: Most of the clientele is 30+. There are very few young people except perhaps for the cashiers. Most seem to have a decent amount of discretionary income and do not mind at all buying hundreds of dollars worth of books and food. Most seem to be sufferring from chronic complaints such as insomnia, dyspepsia, migraines which they have been unable to resolve ,to the their satisfaction, using accepted medical approaches. Because many suffer from chronic ailments there is a high level of personal tension in the place despite all attempts to make it seem peaceful (new age music, water fountains, a hint of incense, subdued lighting). I've seen near knock down dragouts in the aisles resulting from arguments about whether or not a certain sea algae would be harmful for someone with allergies. Most of the patrons are women and in general most patrons appear to be single thus its no surprise that the store is something of a meet market. In fact its not uncommon for people to cruise the aisles waiting for something interesting to come along. There is an astonishing lack of basic knowledge of human physiology on the part of the store managers though this does not stop them from dispensing advice to people with very serious diseases. Its mindblowing what they will tell people just to get them to by a $45 dollar bottle of pills made of seaweed. The "experts" who speak there tend to be specialists in fields that in general don't have any established standards for training or well known edcuational paths. For example I'm not sure what a "7th Plane Reiki Master" is but I saw this guy proclaim himself as being one while making refercene to "years of committed study" under "Ramtha" as if all the world knows him ..her ? But the crowd eats it up and if its an act then its a damn good one because it looks like folks are going for it. In my opinion this place is popular because it serves a demographic of aging baby boomers who don't like the bar scene and might genuinely want to do something about chronic problems. At the same time they are able to meet people in the same boat so it becomes something of a social experience. But I'm not at all sold on the worth of the knowledge that they are handing out. In many cases its just flat out wrong and contradicts basic biology. But no one seems to care.... The place seems to make plenty of money so perhaps it wouldn't be a bad business. As a matter of act just start calling me " Great Reiki Master".....

And WHAT, pray tell, is wrong with that? It's THEIR NAME. I could see "thewayinternational.com" but "the way" is much too generic to be unambiguosly associated with any single entity. "the way" has been used by many ministries and programs. There are investment clubs and weight loss groups that use "the way" in their title. If in fact TWI owns a trademark to "the way" then that can only help them in court though they will have to explain to the satisfaction of a judge why they only very recently developed in an interest in the .com designation. For us with experience with TWI we know that the potential for setting up an expose site is quite likely. for the bulk of americans with no knowledge of TWI I don't think that the relation between theway.com and TWI that we know is going to even be remotely apparent.

Raf said: You cannot cybersquat on your own name. >> Rolls eyes... Raf you are in this thing deep. the fact that I didn't know that (or didn't care) should be a clear and obvious indication that I'm NOT performing amateur legal analyses here. My point was that TWI doesn't want to have anybody else to have it and this is the only reason they want it and they most likely don't have plans to do much with it except map it to their own website. thats an opinion on their motivations and I have no idea if , even if proven to be true, would have legal impact. Thats what lawyers are for.

I defy you to name one section of law I posted (not counting quoting someone else's quote). >> Okay I'm not going back to look at each post I believe you. My bad.. But how is this - you've commented and analysed sections of laws which were posted and those which you have quoted ,have you not ? (Midway page 8 of this thread for example). And I think its safe to say that you , and others, have used the results of those analyses to support your point(s) of view. Are you in agreement or no ? Of course you can only speak for yourself I understand that. And on moral grounds I really don't see this as black and white. I really don't. TWI had a shot at the name, passed on it, and only once it got registered by a known critic who wanted to sell it did they get involved. It wasn't out of any sense of mission to "serve god and his people" that they did this. What problems are there with letting this play out in court ?

Long Gone said: Mark, there are no amateur lawyers on this thread. Not one of us is practicing law or giving legal advice. >> but also said: In addition, I think that Pat is both morally and legally wrong in registering and holding the subject domain >> "legally wrong" sounds very much like a legal opinion to me..... Long Gone said: Finally, I’ll state that relevant laws, rulings, court opinions, and facts are not particularly difficult to look up or comprehend. >> Well if this isn't amateur lawyering I don't know what is. If you aren't a practicing lawyer how do you know what facts are "relevant" which "rulings" and "court opinions" are salient ? I respect your right to suggest that PR's suit is not founded in the best of principles but the suggestion that your reading of the law is sufficient to try the case here is a problem for me and perhaps others who don't see it as you do. Plenty of people know by experience that supposedly simple cases involving "obvious" elements of the law can be notoriously difficult to resolve. If a person isn't a lawyer then the only opinion they can offer is that of a layperson.

Raf said: That's the point of the lawsuit. I don't know about the legal merits of Pat's case. And frankly, I don't care. The way I see it, this is not about the law (thank you Greek for your exposition on the bottom of the previous page). >> Raf I got to disagree with you. You've posted sections of laws - ostensibly in an attempt to convince PR that the law unambiguously reads in the favor of TWI hence he should concede that TWI is entitled to the domain. If its a moral issue then why the citations of law ? Its well known that written law is just a small part of the process since lawyers use precedent and god knows what to make their cases. I think you are saying that its a moral issue because you believe that the law says what Pat is doing is wrong. With all respect thats for the courts to decide. Whats wrong with letting that process take place ? I don't see this case as cut and dried at all though I agree that PR should be more low key about it. Seems to me that TWI wants to cybersquat on a domain that they didn't want at one point until it became clear that a critic had possession of it. (There are some moral issues with that aren't there ?) On the other hand I don't know if this has legal impact even if its proven to be true but I'm sure that no amount of amateur/armchair legal analysis would settle it hence its a matter for the courts

Goey said: You folks who are saying that it was not taught don't know what you are talking about. You are very naive or you are in denial. The fact that you did not hear it in a formal setting is irrelevant. >> In the early days of Waydale and later Gspot when people started discussing widespread abusive behaviors and situations that many endured there were a few harcdcore defenders of TWI and VPW who would say things like (paraphrased and condensed by me): "Well I was in TWI for a long time and I never saw that (referring to some destructive Way practice). Now I'm not saying you made it up but I NEVER saw it. Guess we all had different experiences. By the way...when did this happen ? what area ? I'm just curious. Not calling you a LIAR just that I NEVER saw that and would like to know where it was. Interesting. And none of my friends saw it either.... Buy hey ! Not suggesting that you are DECEIVING us - just intrigued to know who your LC was ? I've been around since 70s and was at HQ and I knew most of the people back then and they had such a heart for God I can't imagine anyone doing that. But hey if you said it happened then I GUESS it did...... but I NEVER saw it...again not calling you a LIAR..". where is the vomit bag ? Over time I think that such people got an earful from people who could corroborate stories of abuse and when faced with confirmation they backed down or at least quit insulting people by posting condescending drivel like that above. Its well known that lots of Way teaching was verbal and the more arcane stuff was never written down (prolly to avoid legal problems). Remember the supposed overthrow attempt of US government attempt back around 76 ? It too was never written down but it was passed around. I suppose that because it wasn't written down that it didn't happen ? In most ways those VPW loyalists and Way apologists were in denial about the darkside of an organziation that they were serving. IF they could avoid the reality that TWI had a twisted side to it then they could go on with their lives as usual without having to deal with it. Some people didn't want to admit that they had been serving an organization that was not above aboard about all its activities and was abusing people. But thats cool. I'm sure god honors the good efforts that many here put forth. Way leaders will have a judgement day.. But on rare occasion you will encounter a Way apologist who denies any and all badness in an effort to escape the consequences of their own wrongdoing while in TWI. They figure that if they can can convince enough people that those things didn't happen then they can rest easier. They fear reprisal for some past act and its likely they can't even remember all that they've done just that they know that they've hurt lots of people -so many that they worry about running into these people.

socks said: Well, diazbro, those hair licks become less and less of a problem as the years go by. >> Funny and true! This This makes me wonder what Way leaders do now that shaved heads are in fashion ? Would it then be a case of "hey your head is too shiny" or maybe "hey your head isn't shiny enough" !. Or is the shaved head in TWI verboten ? Who was the lady who used to post here that used to be responsible for Craig's hair ? I forget her name but she had some funny posts one of which was that she was told "the man of god doesn't need to be self conscious about his appearance (i.e. his receding hairline)" so she talked with those responsilbe for lighting to plan it such that it would't be obvious that Craig was going bald - but that was wasted energy since we all knew it. I don't know this for certain but I'm guessing that people didn't make too many bald jokes around LCM.

I was gone before WAP became the class du jour so I never took it. But I still heard something pretty disturbing - basically that ,upon completion of the class, students were required to submit a letter of thanks to LCM. Was this true ?

Sure there is a waybg though there is some difference of opinion as to how closely and frequently they monitor this site. Back on Waydale there were several notable stories of people being presented with false information by their leaders with the the hopes that that information would turn up on the internet thus allowing Way goons to know who did it. Of course the biggest hypocrsiy of all was that they forbade people to come to Waydale yet they appointed people to do just that. Once again an example of a different set of standards for the rank and file and another for the higherups. There are plenty of suckup corps types who willingly heed the call of management so if they are told to surf the web to "keep and eye on the adversary" then no doubt they will.

outandabout said: The smiles on the chorus looked plastered on. I'll bet they were often exhorted to "smile" during rehersals. >> yes well this was standard advice for any performer in TWI. Anything but a big smile was seen as evidence of a problem. Hell the teachers and leaders didn't even smile all the time but god forbid if the singer/musicians smile didn't reveal your teeth. I couldn't take much of the advice seriously as many of the people giving it had zero experience playing before crowds but it made them feel better to boss around the band. I pointed out that perfomers need to be able to express their personality and while I don't think lighting your guitar on fire is probably a good thing to do in a church service its okay to be "into the music" without looking stupid and fake. I've even been told that my hair wasn't combed right and they wanted to get some gel to tame the stray hair and I couldn't even see what they were talking about. Some lady was huge into the "Attention to detail" and it was bugging her so she insisted on holding things up till they could fix this "major problem".

Raf said: Yes, the amateur lawyering is the same thing for which Pat is being criticized. The difference is that we're not being dragged into court, he is. >> Is this accurate ? I mean I don't think he is being "dragged" into court. In fact he appears to be welcoming it. >> I could spout off legal theories and strategies until the cows come home and it makes no difference. Well I guess thats part of my point. Since no one here is a lawyer aren't all the references to various statutes, and laws just an exercise ? If I were Pat I don't think I would take someone's interpretation of the various laws as gospel. On the other hand I think the point has been made that people here don't take Pat's interpretation of the laws as gospel either.

I checked out "The Wonderful Grace of Jesus" clip and what surprises me most are the empty seats you can see in the opening shot. LLP , an alleged innie, claims that "numbers are up (yet never provides proof) though the clip shows that the SNS isn't what it used to be in terms of attendance. Guess TWI has created new present truth to adjust the meaning of "full house". There was a time that if you were in like 100 mile radius and you didn't go to SNS you heard about it. Looks like "more than a few" people decided to blow-off the SNS scene or maybe there just aren't that many people any more. Of course I'm sure if the WayGB sees this post they will most likely M&A whoever decided to put up the clip who forgot that "attention to detail".

No offense to anyone but isn't all the amateur lawyering going on the same thing for which PAt is being criticized ? At least partly ? Its like "The Peoples Court" at Gspot.

LG said: But I'm not going to cheer on someone who wants to don a rusty suit of armor, mount an old nag, and charge windmills. >> LG I don't know you at all so I'm just representing an opinion here. I don't think of this domain legal situation as being Quixotic. Seems to me that there are ongoing efforts to "try" this case here at Gspot when its really Pat's time and energy and ultimately his choice to go forward. I don't see this as being foolishly impractical at all. From my point of view TWI wants to cybersquat by getting all related domains so no one else can - thus enabling them to minimize the possibility that so called "internet defamation" could occur. One could argue that they have no intention of using these domains for any other reason than to keep them from someone else who might in fact have a legitimate use for it. And who is right ? I don't know but thats what the courts are for. Furtermore I think there is value in getting TWI into court because what they do and say becomes public record , for the most part, and its yet another data point on how they function. If I had the time I might consider moving forward with some legal action against TWI for no other reason than to get them into court so they would have to answer questions and get it out there in the public record. It might be a drop in the bucket but it would be helpful. But I probably wouldn't post about it publicly prior to and as I'm doing it though for better or worse thats the choice of another.

Oh well I dim the lights, put on some gentle samba music, make them a drink, look into their eyes, and tell them all about my past with The Way International :> Too easy.....

justthinking said: ICOC? That is a new one to me. Why are they seen as competitors? Is it another offshoot? >> We might want to take this to another thread to keep this one on track but here is a synopsis. ICOC is not new by any means nor are they Way offshoots but there are plenty of former followers with tales that rival that of former Way followers. My local Way leadership at least around 82 knew about them and called BCOC a cult ! The pot calling the kettle black. The BL was just POed that another group was fishing in TWI water. Perhaps you know them under another name (perhaps not) The Boston Church of Christ. They also had an active presence in Atlanta and were called "The Atlanta Church of Christ". They used to change the name to reflect the city. They have been kicked off lots of campuses nationwide for their agressive pursuit of students. Their typical approach was to pay for some of their younger people to enroll in college (they made it in on their own merits) with the goal of recruiting other students. Most of the BCOC students would spend so much time recruiting for the church that their studies would suffer but and frequently be put on academic probation and in some cases expelled. But they didn't care as long as they got sufficient "headcount". Another problem was that they were highly confrontational with recurits who appeared to be wavering in their faith and there were many incidents involving security where a frighened student would complain about verbal abuse and threats of violence from the BCOC group. PT me or open another thread if you want more info but you can do a web search on BCOC , ACOC, and get plenty of info on this group.

yes all the time. Without those experiences I could never have become the makeout master that I am today so I'm truly in debt to the ladies. Some I'm VERY in debt to and each month at bill time is a painful reminder of that.... But jokes aside I cannot possibly imagine not thinking of past loves because aside from a few bad experiences they were all pretty wonderful so its great daydream material. Of course I realize that its all in the past and I don't go rooting around for old phone numbers trying to figure out what happened to them - in most cases I already know but I'm happy to live off the memory and move forward creating new memories.