diazbro

Raf said: TWI's lawyers are not the court system. I agree that they're taking this seriously. They should be. But they are not "the court." >> that was quick ! the legal system at least in my mind encompasses agents of the court system such as attorneys. Most attorneys don't take cases that are a waste of time nor do they add additional labor to cases easily disposed of. This says nothing about what a judge will think though I would expect any lawyer worth his or her salt to be able to estimate a judges potential reaction. If its easy for them to do that I don't think they need to triple preparations. Raf siad: For all we know, the judge is going to look at the claim and the counterclaim and dismiss both. You don't know what they're going to do and neither do I. >> That is very true but the legal preparatiosn taking place don't appear to suggest that its a cut and dried situation but true - the judge might look at PR's case and rapidly dispose of it. As I said - unless people challenge laws they won't change and I dont see this lawusit as imporper use of the system. I'm sure if a judge does he won't hesistate to say so.

Raf said: To say the courts are taking this seriously requires a bit of prognosticating. You don't have the slightest idea whether the courts will take Pat seriously, or whether they will take TWI's claim seriously for that matter. >> At some point TWI's legal team saw fit to add additional legal expertise (two attorneys right ?) to their defense. They are taking it seriously aren't they ? I don't know of any business practice ,legal or not, that adds expense to situations that are easily or trivially disposed of. So lets see - we have three attorneys (billable at hourly rates I'm guessing) working to prepare for a court case. so someone is indeed taking this seriously. I'm sure when TWI gets the bill they'll be taking it seriously also. Once the initial case (PR's) reaches the courts it could go anyhwere but the fact remains is that the court system exists to hear these situations and laws would never change unless someone challenges them to expand them. This is not an egregious use of the legal system. Thats what it is for to address situations like this.

Long Gone said: am NOT still posting about the topics that gave rise to your questions. You are nagging me with questions that were answered in the threads that gave rise to them, which questions are completely off topic here. >> No yo didn't answer the questions. You have AVOIDED answering them. You characterized it all as vanity and squabbling and said you were going to walk away from it all but didn't and not only that but mounted a pseudo legal battle to prove to readers that the lawsuit was in vain. I've offerred to take this to private topics.. its up to you....

Long Gone said: On the same thread that you are citing, in THIS POST, you demonstrated that you didn’t understand that the disputed domain name is thewayinternational.com, rather than theway.com. >> More misdirection. Again if you characterize the initial lawsuit as the result of "vanity" and feel it be a mere "piddling squabble" I would like to know why you are still posting ? The courts clearly don't think about it like that. Its being taken quite seriously. I've been asking the question for several posts now but you continue to dodge it. We can take it to private topics if you wish ?

Rolls eyes... This is misdirection and distraction. Your "study" of the law has obviously yielded a talent for dodging the issues. Instead of answering the question you are deflecting them to other topics......

Garth said: Frankly Diazbro, that Long Gone comments on the validity of the case, or lack thereof has absolutely no bearing on whether the courts will try the cases or not. >> Errr.... well yea. Thats the point I've been making to LG....

Long Gone said: You are the one who keeps talking about windmills. I used the word only once, almost two months ago. >> You are being disingenuous. You are trying to distance yourself from what you said earlier. In addition to the Quixote reference you called it a "piddly squabble , fueled by vanity" and even recommended "professional help" and not just of the legal kind. Sounds like your problems with the original lawsuit are more than just on a legal basis. The posts are there. If at some point you departed from these points of view you certainly didn't acknowledge it and admit that those original points of view were perhaps not correct. I sense that after TWI added two more attorneys to the initial lawsuit you perhaps started taking it more seriously because you had no choice. Law firms seldom add more billable hours to a case thats a slam dunk for them. Let the courts try both cases. Whether or not you , me , or anyone else approves doesn't make any difference at this point. Why is that so hard for you to accept ?

quote: diazbro said: At what point will you admit that the legal systyem is indeed taking seriously PR's actions and now apparently those of TWIM? then Long Gone said: At no point have I indicated otherwise. >> Oh really ? So what was all that "windmill" talk about ?

Raf said: Pat is not The Way International. TWI is. So is TWIM. TWI and TWIM have a reasonable fight: it's inarguable. Say what you want, Pat's fight with TWI is (if nothing else) arguable. >> So in my mind there is a shot given that TWI passed on the domain at an earlier time. While this might not serve as a forfeiture of their legal rights to the name ,they did pass which for me is enough to pursue it in court ,(albeit with a qualified attorney at your side). The laws don't change until someone challenges them and I've seen people go to court with less going for them than that and come out on top. >> Let's not make this thread about Pat, please. This thread is about TWIM v. TWI, and we should keep it on that subject. >> Well its not about PR you are correct - But LG is posting , in my mind, stuff that attempts to link the two situations as if the TWIM lawsuit is *not* remarkably different from that initiated by PR. So I think its fair game to deal with this on that level. You have drawn a distinction between the two situations that I can appreciate. Though I don't sense this on LG's part who , in my opinion, wants to lump the two actions together when they shouldn't be.

Long Gone said: Compare the words I put in boldface with your response. >> I did and the conclusion I still reach is that you feel PR somehow influenced TWIM to join "the fight" (he was seeking "brothers") and they willingly did. Its like you are saying that TWIM launching its own legal battle against TWI is an extension of PR's efforts. Oh and is TWIM "fighting windmills" also ? Are you going to try to paint them as embitterred followers of TWI who are looking for payback ? At what point will you admit that the legal systyem is indeed taking seriously PR's actions and now apparently those of TWIM ? If people don't challenge laws then they remain unchanged. By your logic no one should attempt to oppose whats written in some law book (which is open to interpretation) on the basis that "its the law". The claims I see being made by both PR and TWIM are legit on a common sense basis. Legally ? I don't know - and nor do you but the real lawyers are taking it seriously so its not the joke or misuse of the legal system that you are trying to make it out to be.

I edited my post to point out that the quality of the "help" is debatable. Guess you posted before I edited

Long Gone said: Yes, Pat, I am serious. I see you as having sought "brothers" to help you in your fight with TWI. I see TWIM as having joined the fight of its own volition, with no direct provocation from TWI. >> Yea its real obvious that Pat is pulling strings over at TWIM and they ,including their legal team, are being led by him. Get real....

Wayward Wayfer said: TWI doesn't claim to be Christian or religious or a church.... >> Yes interesting. They were at least at one time claiming to be a "biblical teaching and research ministry" and didn't like to be associated with the "christian" label as it made them seem like any other denomination. But the real interesting thing is that if they aren't representing themselves them as being christian then what case would they have for wanting to own the whole "the way" concept and keep another group ,that isn't ashamed to be called christian, from using it ?

dmiller said: I'm watching with interest too. Maybe he does - maybe not though I agree that it does appear that TWI will be spending time in court this Summer. I do know that laws and their application have to be challenged in order for them to evolve which is why the rote readings of the law that I've seen posted by various would be legal eagles don't mean much at least to me. You get what you pay for. Its a lay view of the whole picture which is uninformed by the dynamics of the legal profession and the associated processes. Anybody can read a statute and post wha they think it means or what some court somewhere thought but unless you know the professional context then you are just offerring an opinion. I think TWI wants to own the whole "the way"concept and this is their stab at getting some precedents under their belt to protect their investment in the name. The group that TWI picked on makes TWI look very bad in terms of human service and christian outreach. It will be interesting to see how TWI characterizes itself in comparison. I'm sure there will be massive embellishments about the WOW program being some type of missionary program ,etc. It will also be interesting to see how TWI presents itself relative to society at large. They don't help anyone except members (and even that is debatable). That is there are no charity events , no fund raisers for cancer, no volunteer labor. Most any major christian group of which I know does at least some of these things. TWI doesn't and never has. (correcting layout)

Oakspear said: Is it arguable then that the "positive" side of TWI, Wierwille, PFAL, etc is not being presented? >> The positive side of TWI has been presented for decades mostly by leaders wanting you to believe that TWI was the one stop shop for truth. They had their shot at walking the talk but they have failed miserably. They have had their say and the trouble is that they don't (then or now) want anyone to dispute it. Another way to think about it is that the negative aspects of TWI have been suppressed for decades and this forum is evidence of what happens when people have had enough. Besides - TWI doesn't want to participate here. They could if they wanted to - there is absolutely nothing stopping them from doing so. Of course they lurk to take notes on people but thats a passive (Some say cowardly) form of participation and they have absolutely no right to complain about Gspot. At any time they can represent their points of view. the ball is very much in their court.

waterbuffalo said: If you think that this qualifies you a Christian Counselor and you intend to represent yourself as such for as long as you can get away with it...even after you've left the cult...you might STILL be in a (splinter) cult. >> I knew someone who was in TWI who called herself a marriage counselor though she herself had never been married nor had she completed any courses or degree program from a recongnized college or university. She had only Way training and had read lots of relationship books. Amazing......

laleo said: Anyway, whatever ill effects we ended up with are ours to cope with. And whatever hurt or injustice we might feel by having oldiesman around to remind us he doesn't have diabetes is part of the process, too. >> Or perhaps he has yet to be diagnosed or maybe has a different problem ? Through the years I've met some hardcore VPW supportes many of whom later come crashing down after some breakthrough moment with the realization that they were denying the problem all along and were expending tremendous amounts of energy to keep the illusion going on. In my opinion OM is still in suspension and is working hard to convince us and himself that VPW wasn't all that bad.

oldiesman said: Evan, let's not forget that Dr. Wierwille learned from men of God scattered across the continent. That means his teachings should be understood in that light. There's still lots of goodies in PFAL and other Wierwille books, despite his inappropriate conduct. >> ah the ole "treasure , even if its stolen treasure, is still treasure" argument ? First of all I don't know that anyone believes that that which VPW plagiarized is necessarily "treasure", true, or even accepted by mainstream denominations. You are acting like the teachings of Stiles and Leonard are like gold. Not everyone believes that. But lets look at the early sessions of PFAL. for example VP's teaching on believing = receiving was lifted straight from 50s pop psychology ( a la Norman Vincent Peale, Earl Nightingale, Maxwell Maltz) though many here know that it doesn't work as VPW outlined. Parental fear doesn't kill children as VPW taught in PFAL so its not like he taught us something that was even useful at least in this area. Lots of other ideas taught in PFAL (Is JC God ? Are the dead alive now ? Is the trinity divine ?) are hotly debated and sometimes even over in the doctrinal thread so its not like people accept all those teachings as the alpha and omega of theology. So we have a plagiarist who assembled his spirtual platform using the works of others and attempted to rebrand it under TWI name and via the infamous PFAL class. Furthmore he adopted relatively obscure teachings from others most likely to avoid ready detection by those with a general knowledge of christian teaching. Also VPW self published allowing him the convenience of avoiding editorial review processes that might isolate his inadequacies as a researcher and theologian. Anyone who has done even 6 months of work towards any college degree knows that proper attribution is a rule that cannot be ignored. VPW was just an operator trying to pull a fast one. You keep VPW's treasure if you want to but thats your choice. Your dedication to the memory of VPW is touching though it keeps you in denial about just how dishonest he was about the roots of "his" ministry and his "doctoral resarach" at the esteemed Pikes Peak Seminary.

In my opinion, OM possesses a willful ignorance that characterizes the VPW devotee. This is to say that I don't think he is ignorant in the sense that he doesn't have the capacity to understand what people are saying but rather he chooses to ignore the facts in support of the legacy of VPW. But Waydale and Gspot have always had at least one VPW loyalist and OM is an example of this. Just keep that in mind and you won't be surprised by anything he says. I've said it before that I don't have a problem with people supporting the legacy of VPW - as long as they are open about it. I can respect that alot more than I can the closeted VPW supporter who tries to masquerade as someone who is interested in hearing points of view that don't favorably represent VPW and TWI.

For me the situation is based on the idea that anyone who would be called the "man of god for our times","the president", or "the teacher" is held to a higher level of accountability since they are presumably helping people who are willing to be vulnerable and humble to aquire a greater knowledge of God. If you are approaching someone in a position of spirtual authority its quite likely because you trust them (or want to) and its presumed that their advice and suggestions are to be taken seriously because they reflect an elevated spirtual perspective. VPW used to use the following verse to underscore the responsibility that church leaders have to the body: Matthew 18 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. (Note: this verse was later extended to apply to those contemplating a departure from TWI) VPW claimed that this verse documented the responsibility that a pastor has for the church thus he seemed to have knowledge that spirtual leaders are highly accountable for their actions. Within this context I see that VPW, LCM, and other way leaders abused their station. Lots of people trusted them to provide teaching and advice that was targeted to heal and deliver though we now know that both exploited their positions to their own personal benefit which is clearly not acceptable. By VPW's own teaching a leader is worthy of death for betraying the trust of a believer and causing them to stumble.

So aside from the "retemories" (there is some Wayspeak for ya) I don't recall actually studying the actual bible very much unless you consider reading what VPW and other Way leaders wrote about the bible as a valid substitute. Basically when we were told to "work the word" it usually meant that you were to use Way bookstore products as you read the bible. And many inscribed entire way teachings into the margins of bibles so they could have quick and easy access to this information at a moments notice. Like I had several twigmates who copied the 4 crucified teaching into their bible so they could defend the "intergrity of the word" against those reprobates who had the audacity to suggest that it was just JC and two others who were crucified. also TWI loved to talk ABOUT the bible but very little was left to personal study and consideration - they always wanted you to be reading some way book or class syllabus while you read the bible. do you remember that question they used to ask "Have you ever just sat down and read the bible" ? Well sure but you can't do that for very long without someone wanting to horn in on that time with some way teaching.

well for many of us TWI was something we joined with during our youth and it represented a tangible attempt at understanding the more serious aspects of life and spirituality so we typicall deferred to leaders and those who appeared to know more than us. So during this time I don't think that a case for co dependency could be made. We just flat out followed requests without question because we thought that was the thing to do. Now over time when the reproof became abundant ,as did screaming and yelling at people , its quite possible that many of us modified our behavior to appease leaders while hoping to prevent further outbursts. This is co depdendent behavior but still most thought that there was something wrong on a personal basis so it was still like "well I guess I messed up else they wouldn't be yelling at me". And then eventually it became apparent that these guys were running a game - they would repeove you for nothing just as a means to insure your continued and future compliance. Leaders attempted to create a state of hyper vigilance and continual urgency so you could never really be relaxed. And if you yourself were okay they would find something wrong with the way you kept house or they way your spouse behaved. They wanted you to forever be appeasing them. So at first I don't think it was codependent behavior but man TWI had a good training program for it.

Tom Strange a pos?a question: well then... what do the French say??? >> At one time they would say "Its Hebrew to me".....

I can't see this happening. I'm sure CFF has had a taste of relative freedom after the split which they would no doubt lose upon reintegration into TWI. Their budget, teaching materials, and policies would have to be reconciled with current way teachings so what would be the win ? This is not to say that I think that CFF is necessarily right-on but once you get a taste of independence it would be hard to go back to the old ways where someone else was calling the shots no matter how much they've allegedly changed. Goey said: It's interesting that neither TWI nor CFF make any mention of VPW. (Unless I missed it). And >> My opinion on this is that they have chosen to omit VPW references because a search on his name would reveal information of a less than positive nature. Add to this the books which have been written that refer to VPW as the leader of the cult called The Way International. Now obviously if someone does a search on TWI they will turn up and equal amount of negative information though TWI can always claim that they have distanced itself from VPW in an attempt to represent themselves as a changed organziation. Of course TWI , CFF, or any group with roots in TWI can talk up (pr not) VPW if they want to on an informal basis.

ChasUFarley said: By the way, the Greeks have their own version of "It's Greek to me!" - they say "It's Chinese to me!" (I'm not making this up - it's true!) >> And the Chinese say "its french to me" ! This is also quite true.