diazbro

Oldiesman said: Saying it was only VPW's mythology, or private interpretation, tends to give VPW even more credence for putting it together, not less, for those of us who find it very useful. Well he does get credit for "putting it (PFAL) together" but what he put togther wasn't his to begin with. It was a combination of Stiles, Leonard, Pillai, and 50s pop psychology so if anything he was a curator of the works of others though he certainly didn't mind accepting credit as the original author of the material even going so far as to author books in his name only which lifted material from most of the aforementioned sources. Of course VPW's books were self published to avoid the usual and customary editorial review processes. The fact that you found/find it to be useful is something I won't attempt to talk you out of though I reject the concept that it was "god's will" or that the project was accomplished with rightful attribution to those sources. It also must be said that those sources are the works of other humans and as such don't necessarily represent some definitive , authoritative information on God , his will, or how we should be living. The total ommission of credits in PFAL is very telling in that it points all the attention to one person - one man - "The Teacher" when in reality the Way ministry was a collective work though no one would know that from viewing PFAL (or from reading the book of the same name). In my view VPW was a glory hound looking to get the attention he felt due. He was a rouge preacher looking to make a name for himself and its a shame that he hijacked the works of others to do this. I dont think God would honor this - maybe you do. And again the material was presented in some fashion that seemed to make sense to someone but in my view it was always this arrangement of information that followed no natural sequence that I could readily discern - that doesn't mean that others couldn't but as I mentioned , PFAL was a faux academic work so it impressed enough people which was good enough to keep it running. If you tried to look under the covers and ask questions you quickly encountered double-talk and nasty looks if you were persistent. It was like all the PFAL info just fell out of the sky in syllabus format - and we know thats not true. As an alleged researcher VPW would have been initimately familiar with the processes associated with documenting sources and insuring compliance with publication of research works. Of course at the esteemed Pike's Peak (whatever it was) Seminary perhaps they didn't teach those concepts. Actually they didn't teach a darn thing since there were no faculty. Still VPW had some legitimate divinity training and would have encountered information on theses processes - he just decided to exclude himself from those professional obligations possibly because he felt he could get away with it. And he did at least for a while. How many "holy spirit" experts are there any way ? Would anyone notice that a relatively obscure book was plagiarized ? Probably not back then. No VPW gambled and to some extent won. He got what he wanted at least it seemed like he did. But what is his legacy now ? that of an obscure cult leader at best.

I think lots of people suspended personal deverlopment while in TWI. Our relatives and friends who stayed behind (i.e. didn't go into TWI ) had to deal with the mundane and routine problems associated with daily existence and consequently know more about living life than we do since they had to be practical and get on with life in most cases. I know lots of Way people , including myself, who used TWI as a type of insulation against our personal problems and difficulties we were having with relatives and parents. It was cool to tell ourselves that our mission was more noble and prized than what they were doing. Thats kind of tragic. I mean I know lots of "corpses" (people who never went in TWI) who put together great lives while dealing with aging parents, chronic illness, career challenges, rearing children. They have the life skills to deal with all of this whereas those of us who spent lots of time with TWI were focused on some pretty odd priorities that inhibited our potential in developing as men and women. I mean I know lots of missionaries who have helped build cities in other countries, taught English, taken care of the sick, dealt with insane levels of poverty and they are wonderful people. And LCM wanted those went LEAD or Corps to brag about hitchhiking 50 miles.. like that was "walking out on the word" ? There is no comparison. I mean who would get more "rewards" at the bema ? Some Wayfer who signed up 10 people for PFAL / WAP or someone like Mother Theresa who really showed people what ministering was all about ? I put my money with the latter. But then again TWI was the only organization I ever encountered who was so obssessed with "Rewards" in the eternal life anyway. I include myself in the statement that many Wayfers are immature and somewhat demanding when it comes to things simply because we have learned to have a sense of entitlement which has displaced any natural humility that life gives to people via experience which is common to most. But its hard to encounter those experiences if you are in some controlled environment with someone telling you what to feel, when to feel it, and how to feel it. But living in the "real world" will lead to those experience soon enough. What to make of post Way life ? My advice is to keep living and learning and don't be afraid to learn from those around you who , regardless of their spiritual interests, might have tremendous practical wisdom that will be of particular value to you and anyone else looking to carve out an existence without the almight Way there to provide the direction. Even when I was in TWI ,I used to reject the idea that God had some "Cookie jar" for his kids where you reached in to get a "cookie" (revelation). First what parent gives his kids cookies all the time and what type of Father stands with is kid all the time to fight his fights and dry his nose in difficult times ? If this happened there would be no way for the child to learn about life and experience the pain (and love) that can happen to the common man. The only positive thing I took out of TWI were some of the friends I made and a concern for finding a purpose in life. But I had those before I joined TWI so I don't give any crefdit to the Weirwille gang for that. But those things help. I just realized that there are people in the "world" who have forgotten more about practical living than I'll ever know ! Good luck....

White Dove said: I did not go through hell or hit bottom before leaving. Rather it was a logical biblical choice for thinking people. Really the hell started after I left. >> Which might be the reason that people like the offshoots so much. Its a safe place for them while they sort it all out. Post Way living brings with it lots of new issues and splinters offer a nice support system to make the adjustment. Obviously some people consider the splinters to be more than that. White Dove said: >> People attend these groups because they want Christian fellowship that is missing in churches. Many have tried churches after leaving the way but do not like the menu of unscriptural doctrine. Its very rare , at least in my experience, that people leaving TWI go directly to mainstream churches first. The Way training to consider mainstream religion as evil is quite strong. Most new Wayfers tend to either avoid services of any type or ,more commonly, spend some time with one or more splinters. But thats just in the areas I've lived in. In terms of "unscriptural doctrines" well thats just using the Way teachings to judge other organizations. In my time since leaving TWI I have found many Way practices and teachings to be "unscriptural". Personally I have never observed any of the offshoots to be free of strong and obvious Way influence. Over time it has diminished since many have made a conscious effort to stop using various way-cliches but lots of the same patterns and expectations are there.

Aren't there some other threads going on about offshoots ? Guess its a popular topic these days. Anyway. In my view the offshoots/splinters server primarily as decompression chambers for those seeking a return to a conventional life. I was living in an offshoot-rich area for a while and I saw a lot of turnover in that people would leave the Way, pick an offshoot, hang out for a while, and then move on - perhaps to another offshot or maybe nothing at all. Not everyone who leaves TWI goes to offshoots. Some left before there were offshoots so its not like they would want to recreate that dysfunctional life that they left for something better. Just as there were varying degrees of devotion to the Way,VPW, ad LCM there are varying degrees of devotion to the offshoots. I don't view the exsitence of offshoots as evidence that there is "truth" there anymore than it existed within TWI. I mean seems to me lots of people want to continue the good feelings and attitudes they had in TWI without the major drama and trama they were enduring. So it appears to be more like a preservation thing more than anything else. And I really don't see major differences between them. One offshoot does't teach the "law of believing" another doesn't teach "four crucified" yet another teaches "personal prophecy" but I've seen no major departures from Way theology and certainly the home fellowship concept. I see this more of an attachment to "the way we were" as opposed to some evidence that TWI was mostly "right on" except for the legalism (there is also the plagiarism).

If PFAL was your first and perhaps only exposure to supposed academic research then it might have a certain amount of appeal since it did appear to be organized and it was being taught by someone who called himself "The Teacher" and who also claimed to be a "Doctor". For many idealistic young people this was sufficient proof that VPW was some kind of research genius as well as a man of god. Most people weren't that curious about the origins of PFAL at least not to the extent that it led to any serious examination of VPW's credentials as a researcher and author. Those that were curious about PFAL's origins were typically given vague answers or information designed to make it seem like you had a problem if you didn't accept that it was authored by God's will. That pitiful excuse for a Q&A session at the end of the class was just a show. I've seen lots of people pose questions for which there was no sufficient answer and the class leader would conclude by saying "Lets talk about this later" just to avoid admitting that they didn't have a good answer. Worse, I've seen class leaders suggest that some of the questions weren't even "good" so to avoid dealing with them. At the very worst I once saw a leader claim that a student's question had been answered in a certain session of PFAL ,when it clearly hadn't been, and that the student just needed to "work the syllabus" to realize it. But most present knew it was a massive dodge. To me PFAl represents VPW's personal mythology but even then it was conceived and compiled using the ideas of others. His contribution to the mix was perhaps the packaging and presentation of the material. The fact that he had a lot of energy for its promotion doesn't change the reality that it was largely a combination of disparate sources that he hoped wouldn't be readily apparent to the starry-eyed, novitiate. And he was successful at this at least initially. Were I to give credit to VPW for anything it would be for being a hard working hustler who predated the self-improvemnt seminars of the 70s and personal gurus of the 80s. Were VPW to have launched his "ministry" in recent times I'm convinced he would be using DVDs , weekend retreats, and personal consultations ( a la Tony Robbins, Deepak Chopra) to get his message across. On the other hand were VPW to "go public" it would be apparent that his books weren't completely his own so maybe he would still try to keep it all underground.

My observations on splinter groups are that they serve as excellent decompression chambers for those in the process of leaving TWI and those who have left. It makes the process of starting a life after TWI not seem so difficult. To this end I think the splinter groups serve a decent purpose. From what I can see , people check out some of these splinters , maye hang with one for a while, and then move on after they've gotten some stability. However some of those groups have picked right up where the Way left off in terms of what they expect from people as well as the concept that only one group on the planet has access to the "word of god". Some splinters are cults, others are just groups of former Way with lingering interest in the home fellowship concept and a Way-embedded fear of any and all (popular) organized religions which prevents them from checking out mainstream churches. From time to time I encounter former Way people who invite me to their "fellowship" (a word that people still cling to) and I politely decline and change the subject. Most of these folks are cool enough to leave it at that and back off. But there are still a few who freak if they think you aren't going to any type of "fellowship" which , to them, is a sign that you are "possessed" or that maybe you really did so something to warrant expulsion from TWI. Its that minority thats dangerous - They've left TWI but the TWI hasn't left them and they seek to recreate that environment with them wherever they go - even if its got nothing to do with splinter groups. They just have to be RIGHT and they want everyone to know it. But I have no problems if anyone wants to go to one of these. Its a personal decision and whatever makes you happy. BUT If you think going to a splinter is going to insure a huge number of rewards at the "bema" whereas those who go to baptist,methodist, and catholic churhces won't even make it to the "bema" then I would suggest that you might still be water-logged with WayBrain....

Well lets see. the so called law of believing was taken from 50s pop psychology, grafted on top of some bible verses, and rolled out in PFAL as one of the foundational concepts of PFAL. Obviously the teaching was flawed so one wonders if the "foundation" of the class is flawed then what about the rest of it ? Okay well ponder that one in your spare time.. We now know that there are near identities between the "Works" of VPW and those of Leonard and Stiles both of whom published works before VPW. In short VPW plagiarized the works of others. For those not familiar or concerned with standard publishing practices, especially as they relate to academic research, this is an extremely serious offense which typically results in expulsion from any recognized institution of higher learning. Okay well that aside - given that the HS material was taken from someone else , as were the sections on sonship rights, then what does that leave in PFAL that truly was VPW's ? His horrible jokes ? His claim that he saw snow ? To answer the question posed in the start of the thread - PFAL collapses because it was organized around a series of teachings from disparate sources with very little of that material originating with VPW. The lack of continuity in PFAL has always been there. I asked the question frequently as to how he selected what to include and how to sequence it. Of course I was assured that it was all directed by God's will so I should rest assured that it was for the best. I see no particular "logical" flow in PFAL despite VPW's claims to "mathematical accuracy" and "scientific precision". What did he know about sceintific precision anyway except that it sounded good when he was teaching. No. PFAL was a bunch of separate (many unoriginal) teachings lumped together to give the illusion of some magic path to enlightenment. To many the fact that he went to so much trouble to film it and package it seems sufficient proof that it must be divine in conception else why would he bother ? Sounds odd doesn't it but I know many ex-Wayfers who think like this.

My experience with Corps was this- the most negative experiences I had in TWI involved Corps. Does this mean that all Corp were bad ? I don't know - I didn't meet them all. I did meet some cool people who were Corps or who had been but as I circulated more in TWI Tree I encountered lots of self absorbed would be VPWs and Craigs and the results were seldom beneficial. To put this any other way would be lying. I lost all faith in what the Corps was about after this experience - I recall that in my twig we would routinely have high numbers (sometimes as many as 50) and this occurred because people on a local level were doing this. We were running a high number of PFAL classes also. Even the WOWs in our area would joke about not having to work so hard because of the natural enthusiasm we had on the local level. So we caught the attention of HQ and I guess they thought we needed help because they shipped down the "pros". Within a month the average number of Twig attendees fell to 5 !!! They were so negative, so abusive, so know-it-all ("that guy is a fag", "that guy is possessed", "this one will never take the class so forget him". "If you don't take the advanced class this year then you will never experience the best that god has to give you"). Of course when PFAL classes stopped running who did these experts blame ? The locals of course. I cannot emphasize how much damage these guys did. They took a fruitful area and destroyed it with their "elite knowledge".

Actually I experienced more interesting events from a spiritual point of view BEFORE I joined TWI. I readily acknowledge that in TWI I encountered some well-intentioned people who just wanted to help (I give them the credit for this NOT the TWI) but once they tied "ministering" to the Way infrastructure (That is join up or you are a corpse) then it became much less about helping people and more about helping TWI's bank account. I once heard a dedicated Wayfer tell a neighbor ,who was a christian who believed in divine healings, that she would gladly minister to him for his chronic illness but only if he came to fellowship. How whacked is that ? She was actually proud of this approach and couldn't see anything wrong with it. I don't recall JC placing conditions on his healings like that. In any case once TWI became more about egos and kissing a$$ to please the Way bosses the blessings stopped. People became visibily harsher and bitter in their attitudes towards those who weren't with TWI (copouts, "corpses") which ,for an organization that relied heavily upon new recruits, was most odd. Its my claim that the blessings and ministering that did occur in the so called "good ole days" (someting I claim is the product of nostalgia) were a function of good-hearted people trying to do good. I give those people the credit - NOT TWI. there is a dangerous form of logic that some of the misty-eyed old timers use from time to time that basically holds that if you ever experienced any good thing while in TWI then you should give VPW full credit for making it possible for you to meet such great people. Very odd indeed. Those people were quality folks before they got into TWI. You remember that book "The Way Living In Love" ? (I like to call it "The Way Living in La-La Land"). That book is one of my favorite works of fiction as I NEVER saw TWI that was described in that book and I was around during that time. It made it seem like people were routinely getting healed of diseases and personal problems disappeared when you joined TWI. (Actually those problems didn't disappear - people joined TWI to avoid dealing with them). While I think E. Whiteside was a good writer it doens't change the fact that that book was basically a sales tools. Lots of us young, energtic kids were really trying to make a difference so it was obvious that many of us were very optimistic and idealistic perhaps at the expense of reality (a problem associated with youth) so we didn't see the lies and problems that had already crept into TWI. The fact that many were worshipping VPW instead of God was not seen as a problem - at least by most.

Oh one more thing. This thread reminds of that Depeche Mode song whose title sums it up quite nicely... "Everything Counts (In Large Amounts)" A nice little truism even if the song wasn't about "ahem" personal attributes....

HT possessed a facility with the language that rivals that of the most accomplished writers. While some criticized him for his habit of imposing himself on top of whatever topic it was he as supposed to be writing about (aka "gonzo" journalism) I was never left wanting for entertainment , laughs, and a refreshing perspective on a variety of topics. I just finished reading "the Great Shark Hunt" which has excerpts from many of his major works. Also I must have read "Hells Angels" about 30 times now and each time I do I walk away with something new (of course people said that about PFAL but mostly because everyone else said the same thing so they didn't want to seem like a dolt). And others didn't like his open use of drugs and alcohol neither of which diminshed what I feel to be a fierce intelligence and talent for writing that is a source of envy for many. A great writer for sure....

Yes that is correct and the birthday example is typically employed by statistics professors in introductory courses to educate students to the reality that many processes and occurrences are related and perhaps follow some model which allows for predictability. go here for an explanation http://www.kwansei.ac.jp/hs/z90010/english...obi/tanjyou.htm If 23 people are in the room then its a 50% probability that two people share the same bday. At 32% its 75% and if there are 57 people in the room then it shoots up to %99 ! Still I claim to have experienced a miracle (or maybe two) but thats about it as far as I'm concerned. For most, "miracle" seems to imply a divine intervention or the work of some unseen force though it doesn't have to be that. Encountering a set of circumstances that works to the benefit of a given individual could be characterized as mere statistics at work though , from my point of view, I might still exerience it as a miracle while leaving the religious types to ponder what I did (or didn't do) to deserve it.

Well there is nothing wrong with having "more to work with" so to speak though whether or not it is more desireable is a function of those involved. But who would see anything problematic with having the "extras" that nature on occasion bestows upon some ? Being serious here I must point out that there are studies which suggest that , from an evolutionary point of view, seeing large mammaries sends a direct message to the instinctive part of the brain which is more oriented towards nourishment than mere arousal. Moreover , men AND women do notice large breasts because its in our DNA to view that as a food source (stop laughing) though its seldom a conscious realization. So next time your wife/gf catches you surveying what nature has kindly blessed another woman with, then just tell her that you can't help it - you are just answering the call of the genes. You could also tell her that you are just hungry.... Of course if anyone wants to conduct more research in these areas then feel free to do so..

well the so called "law of believing" was completely in step (if not appropriated) from 50s pop psychology (Earl Nightingale "The Strangest Secret, Norman Vincent Peale, Maxwell Maltz) where postive thinking was promoted widely as a cure-all for many ills. I suppose that postive thinking *does* help to an extent but VPW tried to weave it into "the word" and make it a "foundational" teaching of PFAL. It was one of the first things taught and one of the first things that I saw that didn't work which is why the concept of "negative believing" was tpyically pointed to as the cause for things not coming to pass. The MOG could always blame you for not havig your believing up to snuff. "Don't blame God for your lack of believing". Obviously bad things can happen to good people and vice-versa so the would be know-it-all preacher who would try to explain it always comes out of it looking foolish because you can always find a counter-example. Even the mighty VPW couldn't "believe" his way out of cancer even though lots of way followers were berated for having less severe maladies. In terms of miracles - well frankly I do believe in them. I don't think they happen very often nor do I think they need to be accompanined by some wild visual effects or some event with an epic quality. But when something happens that is just so dead on and all things appear to align to accomplish something its a mind blower. On the other hand I've seen the reverse be true - when things just start going down hill and other things just start going to hell right along with it. Tough to explain and I don't think there is a single answer really...

I've heard about this guy through third part sources though dont know any details. Of course anyone with Way training has been conditioned to immediately dismiss such person as a fraud who operates devil spirits. Its just a conditioned response for most former Way people. Whether or not you believe in healing is fine by me though I do find it interesting that some people who have left Way decades ago will accept the concept of divine healing only if its coming from someone else with Way training. Its still a huge block for these folks to consider that someone who was never in TWI could "minister healing" (Whatever that really means). Myself I'm a natural skeptic of "healers" in general - though I don't expect everyone else to be - I would just hope that they aren't excluding the possibility of divine healing on the basis that someone has (or hasn't) had Way experience.

Well funny stuff to be sure though I must say that even back during the times wherein Craig was ascending to the "top" of TWI I never considered him to be the ultra badass athlete that others held him up to be. I never went for it. I guess some people just had never been around real athletic types. I don't think LCM was by any means a small man but I was never impressed in the same way that some of his fawning followers were. In fact I routinely encountered people in TWI with equally as solid , (and better), physiques than LCM - some of whom who actually played college ball and , unlike LCM, didn't ride the bench most of the time. Its like for people who didn't go to college not understanding how serious plagiarism is in academic and publishing circles. They were never exposed to those concepts so they think its cool that VPW gave, long after the fact in many cases, verbal attribution to the very authors he ripped off. Its dead wrong and doesn't correct the wrong. Its also wrong to represent yourself as a "doctor" when you got your "PhD" from a mail order "college" with no resident faculty. Back to LCM - I remember people telling me how "awesome" an "athlete" LCM was and I fully expected to see freaking Jack Lambert, Ray Nitschke, or Dick Butkus. But he was just some farm boy type. And when he cast himself in that horrible presentation well he went totally overboard with his vanity and self indulgence. Man what a self absorbed guy... and why ? And after seeing pics of LCM in the late 80s and into the 90s I find it extraordinarily difficult to believe that anyone would pay money to be "trained" but this guy. Once again I think its a case of people just knowing any better and assumming that anyone who is tall and not skinny is somehow "in shape". Wearing double breasted suits to hide your gut doesn't mean you are fooling anyone. The ultimate irony is that the Way's elite were always pointed to as examples for living but over time they got to be pretty paunchy - and if you look at TWI's website and surf some of their pics - well its clear that some people aren't eating on a "needs only basis".

Many were married with the concept that any two believers could make a marriage work though reality shows that many Way sponsored marriages flopped about as often , if not more frequently, than people outside of TWI. Its not surprising once you understand that meeting someone at the Rock or encountering someone at a Heartbeat festival, or while on Lightbearers , or at the Advanced Class is hardly the equivalent of a seasoned relationship wherein people take time to get to know one another before taking the vows. Like many here I know of lots of quickie (And arranged) Way marriages that ended in accusations of possession or someone being a "copout". Its yet another example of TWI meddling in the lives of its followers. Obviously there were some longlasting marriages and good for them ! Congratulations that you could make it last under such circumstances and scrutiny from way leaders and their suckup yes men. Of course we all know that some Way leaders had a totally different concept of "marriage" than that which is commonly held by the average joe. Basically if you are a head honcho the its okay to sample from the flock. No - not everyone did but enough did to make it a problem for those who actually respect the institution of marriage. The arranged and quickie marriages in TWI were basically enocuraged to keep couples in TWI. They didn't want "salespeople" (aka ambassadors) for PFAL to wander off and marry an unbeliever because that might be a possible distraction for the Way person and thus prevent the spread of PFAL (and the money it generated). I had a friend who married another Way person only after having known them 3 weeks. It was a disaster though instead of walking away from it with the understanding that it was too soon it degraded into a bitter, insult contest with local Way "clergy" blaming them both for not being in fellowship and allowing the adversary to steal away their happiness.

I made my point which is something you probably aren't agreeing with judging from your post.( Just a guess). I agree that LG is "perfectly lucid and understandable" which makes it all the easier to see the motivations for criticism of the lawsuit.

Long Gone said: ) I never called it a “vain squabble” or used “vanity” in the sense of something being for naught. I used “vanity” in the sense of personal vanity, as should be clear from the context, as explained in the link I promised, should you continue hounding me. >> So is this like one of VPW's "literal according to usage" things ? whats next ? figures of speech ? Look - your language in those posts was clear. You even recommended "professional help" and not of the legal kind either. So within what "context" were those kind words offerred ? On the other hand I can deal better with those earlier posts than I could the legal stuff which was simply a smokescreen for not liking how PR rolled out the lawsuit. At least you were communicating unambiguously and directly instead of posting these lengthy essays designed to represent your personal dislike of the lawsuit seem the result of some noble sensitivity to "the law". Just say you got a problem with PR's lawsuit on a personal level and leave it that. And now that we have TWIM dealing with TWI on a legal basis what will you suggest for them ? "professional help" ? Long Gone said: in response to your nagging >> This is an attempt to shut things down. I suppose no one can offer a dissenting opinion without it being called "nagging" ?

LG said: >> Diazbro, All of this has been covered in the below-linked threads. More of the same... I asked a simple question and got a sea of words. You still haven't dealt with the basic issues of why if its a vain squabble which is quixotic are you so heavily invested in it ? If you keep hounding me, you’ll get a link back to this post. >> Hounding ? I just want a straight answer not some handwaving and attempt at summarizing the thread.

I know several people who would return if certain conditions were met with the biggest one being a return to the VPW teachings. Some of the people I know have been lost in their lives since their association with TWI ended and would love to return. Now whether thats good or bad is for another thread but there are definitely exWay folks who would love to be back on board if it were more like the 70s.

pjroberge said: Is your dislike of me more than that of TWI? >> good luck getting a straight answer to that one though , in my opinion, its the primary reason for LG's stake in this. The pseudo legal posturing is a smokescreen for that - again in my opinion.

Linda Z's post: Her response (paraphrased, but this was the gist of it): "You don't need to read the Bible so much now. After all, you're reading the Way Magazine and other Way publications every day in your work." >> So this reminds me of a remark to the effect of "You don't have Jesus but you do have Doctor Weirwille". Now the VPW stuff aside it was clear to me then and even more so later that we were substituting books and magazines about the bible in place of the real bible. do you remember that question "Have you ever just sat and read the bible"? I tried to many times while in TWI but was frequently interrupted or asked why I wasn't using someone's article or one of the books to work it. At a minimum you were expected to have a concordance nearby. Once I was reading the bible in a room by myself and was warned that in absence of collateral materials that I might wind up privately intperpreting the bible.

Way social events were quite boring in general though I do recall some that ended up with people getting pretty wild but that was typically hours after the official event had ended. One night we had a marshmallow roasting thing setup for the Branch and there was a teaching and some singing followed by an hour of standing by the fire. so after the rank and file left someone broke out the beer and it got pretty wild in a good way (at least as far as I was concenred). No one seemed to care so much becuase the limb guy was standing there getting hammerred right along with everyone else. But this type of think never happened that often. I remember we had some parties that were well attended and on occassion the neighbors would mistake it for a real party and we would get party crashers who would get disappointed rather quickly once they found out that it was a bible group and that the pretty girls they saw weren't going to go home with them.

Raf said: I could sue you right now, and you and your lawyer would take it seriously. But as I have no reason to sue you, the moment a judge gets a look at my lawsuit, it ain't gonna take him more than a few seconds to dismiss it. >> Expect to hear from my attorneys directly..... :>