diazbro

Well exercise and sensible eating is the proverbial 1-2 punch. It works and it would be next to impossible for it not to. Dieting alone leads to some weight loss but the person regains some measure of the lost weight upon cessation of the diet. In my my mind thats not what I want. I don't want to look good just for some wedding or reunion, I want a continual state of fitness (or as close as I can get to it). I've seen some people in the gym who have turned it all around though. Some were considering gastric bypass but gave exercise and diet a shot. It wasn't easy. They had to start out with baby steps. Like water aerobics and then onto regular aerobics and then basic resistance training. Some of these people hadn't exercised in 25 years or more. But they did it so I give them lots of credit for having the courage. But for the average joe or jolene on the street who has just the middle age spread, well that can be dealt with quite effectively and relatively quickly with the diet & exercise combo. It becomes a question of priorities and interest. Like many guys I recall one day in looking in the mirror at my growing love handles (lots of love I might add) and wondering if I was just going to give up and start "accepting it". Thank God I didn't. I don't see myself like that so I wanted to deal with it. Again I stress I'm not going for the steroid freak look just the solidly in shape look with an emhpasis on the cardio vascular health. Its good for you, your spouse , and is a good example for the kids.

I don't think the article is suggesting that the military services cannot work with out-of- shape youth just that they are noting that on the average they are more out of shape than before which is no surprise. But in any case there is a growing (no pun intended) obesity problem and I know its not terribly PC to say it but people need to quit eating crappy stuff and exercise - if for no other reason than to teach their children good habits. One would think that maintaining solid personal health is sufficient motivation to keep in shape but its not. People drink 6 beers a night, eat ice cream, get burgers for lunch, and eat with the intensity of a drunk roman on any and all holidays... And then later they complain about being fat ?!?! Fitness and health are like gifts that you give to yourself. And its the gift that keeps on giving - to you and your spouse. Give them something nice to look at. I'm not talking about being a steroid body builder or a silicon enhanced beach bunny. I'm talking about basic "fitness". Obviously being fit will make you look better but its the enhanced quality of life that is the real winnder. More energy, better sleep, better sex, longer life. Whats not to like about that ? I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir but the public at large appears to resent being told that exercise should be a priority. Every one is busy. No one is any busier than another yet thats the most frequently given excuse out there. "I don't have time" but those who are in the gym or walking/jogging in their neighborhoos are busy too. They have kids, jobs, go to school also. We are all older. maybe some trick knees or sore shoulders but a person can work around those. I don't know at what point it became "cool" for people to walk around shopping malls in work out clothes (because they don't have anything else that fits them) eating a triple scoop chocolate sugar cone , but I guess thats okay for lots of people....

Lets see... The Law of Believing A fundamental teaching in PFAL that is a combination of 50s pop psychology (see books by Maxwell Maltz, Norman Vincent Peale, and Earl Nightingale) with biblical references. It was at one time the foundation of the PFAL foundational class. This law enables believers (and even unbelievers) to systematically acquire the abundant life referred to in John 10:10. VPW graciously dictated a sequence of steps that one must execute to obtain percious things such as fire engine red drapes. One MUST accomplish each step carefully and not to do so negates the entire process. The first step was to determine if the object of desire was "available". (No point in asking for something that isn't there). This first step prompted one of the more enduring (and subsequently loathed) questions in Way history - "Is it available to " ? Some people still reel in nausea when they hear a question or phrase involving the word "available" even if the poser of the question had no knowledge of TWI, VPW, or the magical law of believing. While seemingly a wonderful tool there were few people who could master all the necessary steps in the formula quite likely because no one had ever heard the same definition for "having one's needs and wants parallel", which was one of the more important ,(yet least understood), aspects of the formula for acquisition. Some theorized that it meant you should only ask for what it is you really need and others suggested that your needs are satisfied by God anyway so you shouldn't really be using the law of believing to get cool or fun stuff. Lots of debates took place on exactly how one would determine if a need and a want were in fact parallel and if not, how to balance them out to get the good stuff. References were made to the Stones' "you can't always get what you want.. but you get what you need" as evidence that VPW's teachings were universally accepted even by heathen rock stars. But the Law of Beleiving isn't all good. It had a very,very dark side. Those who were fearful could unknowingly unleash "negative believing" which would result in your fears coming to pass. Worse, your level of fear didn't have to be parallel to anything. You just had to have it for some unspecified period of time and then BLAM. Your fear would become reality! In this regard there was much less work involved in receiving bad things than the good things. You didn't have to determine the availability of the bad thing nor did you have to match it up ("parellel-ize") with any thing. Just fear it and it will come to pass ! According to VPW negative believing should be avoided by parents as it can result in the death of their children who ,evidently, up until some unspecified age are not responsible for their own negative believing until something like a guardian angel leaves them as they transition into adulthood (perhaps at puberty ? ). Before this time its the parents "believing" which determines the child's destiny. As if parents didn't already have enough to worry about. Speaking of worry... Also essential to the understanding of negative believing is that doubt leads to worry and worry leads to fear though there was no formula or chart that helped the person determine when a doubt turned to worry or just how much worrying one had to do before they had a bona fide FEAR. Seems somewhat lazy and inconsiderate of VPW to omit details on these details of dark side since it could have such perilous impact on one's life. Its important to know that those who didn't get what they had believed for were typically chastised for being out of fellowship or for not giving enough "ABS" money. Of course getting back into fellowship is contingent upon giving ABS so you can attend more Way functions to talk about how wonderful the Law of Believing is. The whole "believing = receiving" thing came under some examination when it was discovered that VPW had cancer which is, by Way teaching, caused by a "devil spirit". Without discussing how VPW could get a devil spirit - it was telling that "The Teacher" could not "get his believing" to the point where he could get the healing that presumably could be easily had by applying the principles. Of course followers of TWI who had maladies were still chastised and humiliated for suffering with diseases and medical conditions of any kind. A different standard was applied to VPW than was to the rest of TWI community. Some attempted to rationalize this problem by suggesting that VPW "willed himself" to die and thus COULD HAVE believed himself healthy again though CHOSE not to. (I don't think many went for this though there are those who do). The LOB spawned many Way urban myths some of which persist today. Claims of "believers driving 2000 miles to the ROA in a car that had no oil or even gas" were common place enough in the 70s to suggest that the law of believing might have been tailor made for young people who drove clunker automobiles with hideous green , "Way" bumper stickers on their way to New Knoxille, Ohio. If you weren't going to HQ or "the rock" then you had to use gas and oil. Spectacular tales of healing (the blind seeing, the crippled walking, even limbs growing back) were of course abundant (no pun intended) though most are related in third or fourth person with no reasonable contact trail to followup on it even if you wanted to. Less exciting though very popular amongst WOWs were "miraculous" stories of healings from sore throats and colds ! "My WOW brother prayed for me and just three days later my sore throat was gone !". Its unknown to me exactly what role the LOB plays in TWI of 2005. Is it even taught ? If it is then is it even the same recipe for abundance outlined by VPW ? Has any Way leader explained just how "The Teacher" could get a devil spirit and not be able to believe his way out of his illness" ?

TWi might have some appeal for those with a psychological need to belong to some small, "elite" group that claims exclusive access to God's mind and will. Of course anyone needing that kind of association in their life might have a mental problem right from the start. But some people actually enjoy being told what to do and even welcome the micromanagement which accompanies the Way lifestyle. They confuse this blind compliance with devotion to God. Many were initially attracted to TWI of the 70s because there were loads of young people around having fun and doing things socially but those days are long gone and there exists no such dynamic in TWI of 2005. Its become an old person's church with very little appeal to a young person. My point is that back in the 70s it might take quite a while for one to encounter the rigid expectations aassociated with TWI lifestyle than it might today. I left as LCM was taking the helm but saw that they weren't tolerating "part timers" any more which has led to the "be with us or not" mentality that result in the micromanagement practices so prevalent in the 80s and I suppose the 90s. There were some "buffers" there once upon a time due to the size of TWI but now they want only "the committed" right from the start. I suspect that the only young people who might be "active" are those who have been shoe-horned into the way lifestyle by their parents yet TWI represents them as "new students" to whatever class it is they teach these days. Some have characterized the remaining hardcore followers as "kool aid drinkers" though I don't think its quite down to that just yet. Sure. There are those who would accept dramatic orders from leadership without question but I have the sense there are those remaning who wish to leave. At some point it will be a case of too many chiefs and not enough indians. Sure they'll have regional coordinators and what not but over time there won't be need for this type of "tree" yet they won't let go of it simply because it would be a very clear sign that membership numbers are anemic.

yes well I recall my first twig and we had almost every type of "social outcast" present of which you could conceive. (I might have even been one). Not all at once and not on a continual basis but we definitely had an open door policy that included acceptance of winos, junkies, thieves, convicts, prostitutes, witches, occultists, the chronically unemployed, and homosexuals. We didn't go out our way to find these people but in keeping with the general precept of christianity to spread the word we invited whomever and didn't get riled over their particular situation. Maybe because our twig was mixed in terms of ehtnicity there wasn't a single sense of identity. If you didnt' like being around different people then you wouldn't have lasted long at our twig. Later , after some teachings from visiting corps and such we learned about TWI's special interest/fear/obsession with homosexuality. Later it became a fetish for LCM and to put it any other way would be lying. He was consumed with the idea and made it an essential part of his "platform" of president of TWI. Though it sounds like a cheap shot I've always been suspect of guys who are incredibly vocal about their loathing of homosexuals as was LCM. In my experience and observation these are the types who are struggling with it internally. I'm being completely serious. I had a coach once who used to rage on and on about homosexuals yet he was later found to have been actively "cruising" for guys in a public park. and LAter when I heard LCM "teach" about "homos" I experienced a strong sense of deja vu. Well anyway before LCM was on the scene there wasn't much differentiation between people at the local Twig level - at least in my twig. No one felt compelled to cast out demons and crap like that or run someone into the ground with the bible because you noticed they were effiminate or spoke with a lisp. No, Hatred of homosexuals had yet to become de rigeur so we simply did not care what they did. Any group that preaches hatred of anyone is not cool in my book. I would avoid them and would suggest to my children that they do the same. The social hsyteria that holds that if you have a gay friend then you are latently gay is so totally whacked that its unbelievable. Hatred is wrong and it doesn't do anything to attract people to what is presumably a great source of personal benefit (the bible and its message). I know many people some of whom are gay and while I don't pretend to understand why they are "that way" it doesn't prevent me from cultivating friendships with them. A couple of these guys are surgeons and they save lives almost every time they operate and do you think it would matter one iota to one of their patients if they knew that their doctor was gay ? It certainly doesn't matter when the is the guy is saving a life. Of course its very easy to abstract homosexuals into some loathsome contingent within the population as if they were all lisping hair dresser types, hanging out in bathrooms waiting on a hookup. Not all christians "hate" homosexuals even though they might be uncomfortable around them and there is nothing wrong with that. I'm sure that many gay people are uncomfortable around christians also. But what kind of witness is it when someone makes automatic hatred of someone else a standard part of their personality and "message of love" ? Thats not a witness. That person is just using the bible as a medium upon which to piggy back their hatred of someone else.

The timleine for recovery can be quite lengthy which is something that appears to be news for some even those who have been the recipient/victim of sustained, patterned abuse. First , it takes time and courage for someone to come to terms with being a victim. Its crucial to the reparation process to take an unflinching look at what happened as a form of acknowledgement that yes it did happen. It wasn't a product of anyone's imagination. And while time might have put some distance between some past events and today , the hurt is still there. Those who don't wish to "deal with it" or engage some self-investigative process *could* be in denial but I think its more common the case that they know its gonna be dragging up lots of (possibly very negative) emotions and it takes tremendous strength to deal with that. At times it can be like lifting the lid on a full trashcan thats been sitting under the Sun in July. Its not gonna be pleasant but how long do you want that trash to sit there. You can't blame someone like this - after all performing a self-inventory can disrupt your life and if you are relatively content then you might wish to avoid it though you know that the "trash" is still sitting there. Its just a question of how long you will let it remain. There are still areas in my life like this ,(not necessarily related to TWI), that I know I have to deal with sooner or later. The goal isn't to wallow in the pain and remain perpetually injured person. Its to take care of personal business that will 1) help you mend the relationship with yourself and others and 2) insure a layer of insulation against future potential situations that might prove to be abusive. But each must progress in their own time and at their own pace. Some married couples can tell you about this. One spouse is anxious to move past some problem whereas another needs more time and space to sort it out. Neither is wrong though practicality demands some type of resolution so both can continue to function and fulfll basic responsibilities. Hopefully they can agree to support each other or at the very least respect the process. My primary concern about all this is that I see folks on GSpot who want to , perhaps unconsciously, dictate to others a schedule of recovery. Maybe one has arrived at the place where a discussion on ,for example, the distribution of ABS back in 1977 represents useless information though for another it might be a breakthrough in their realization that there were financial improprieties taking place. Maybe they were part of it or knew someone who was. It helps people to "connect the dots". If your picture of TWI experience is complete and ready to be put aside for something else then good for you. Thats quite an accomplihsment. But perhaps some haven't finished with theirs yet. Maybe they want to take it at a slower pace or maybe their investment was far greater than another's thus it will take more time. I'll admit that I don't much care for the theological disucssions over in the doctrinal forum but thats my choice. Those who engage each other over there clearly want to and its important to them to "connect some dots" also so I respect that. I don't go over there and make it seem as if they are obssessed with mind numbing biblical minuate at the expense of reality. I let them be. Who knows maybe even one day I might find a discussion over there I want to get into. But the fact that I don't participate now doesn't negate its value for others. We aren't all working in the same jigsaw puzzle here , nor did everyone begin at the same time, and others aren't even working on a puzzle ,so its unreasonable to assume that we should all complete it at the same time. Seems to me that we've had some recent posters at Gspot who want others to leave it all behind simply because they have. Thats most unfortunate.

yea well this is like the third "GS Cafe is repeating itself" thread that I've seen. If anything is repetitive as of late, its these types of threads. I'm not sure that its anyone's job to insure a steady stream of gossip and insider information a la the national enqurirer. Obviously with the dwindling number of Way members ,combined with TWI's participation in this forum to check for posters still on the inside, this results in a lack of fresh info. So why is it a huge surprise to anyone that we don't get "hot news items" like we might have on Waydale and the earlier days of Gspot. There were lots of innies reading Waydale on the sligh long before Way leadership realized that that forum represented a legitiamte source of info and , furthermore, a link to the "outside" for those innies who were contemplating a departure. Over time the so called "WayGB" started hanging out on Waydale and later here GSpot to determine who might still be in. They even distributed false info in certain areas to see if it showed up here so they could later bust someone for participating. Its no small wonder that innies don't post here now since its heavily monitored by TWI. So before you start blaming the forum , at least consider this. This place is resource for anyone looking for info on TWI. Not everyone arrives at the same time or is looking for the same types of info and its a sure bet that not everyone posts. And not everyone is even a former or curent member of TWI. But there is lots here to consider and chew on even if the Way were to float into oblivion (which its seems to be doing anyway). We are all at different stages of discovery and recovery so it only makes sense that what one might assume to be old hat is indeed vital info for another. I find it odd and somewhat arrogant that anyone would come here expecting the rest of the forum to provide entertainment or "juicy news" to satsify some neo-voyeuristic urge for new "way dirt". Do your own research if its that important. I don't recall that it was the obligation of this forum to be like some on line "entertaiment tonight" show. Its totally amazing to me that anyone would come here and complain about this. Where in the terms of this website does it guarantee readers access to a continual stream of insider info ? Cherished Child said: P.S. Any expressions of righteous indignation, and misunderstanding of my post will probably go unread. This takes the cake... This is a sign of the "I'll pick up my toys and go home now" mentality that used to be so pervasive. Thats like saying "any posts I don't like I'll ignore". And its an odd statement since you would first have to read a post to determine if its to your liking or not. Seems to me that you want things here to be as you want them and if they are not you are going to complain and threaten to leave as if "the forum" must do something to regain your trust and support. Everyone is welcome here but Please don't come here and lay it down that GS has the problem. You as a participant have a responsibility to make it better. Even if TWI ceased to exist as of this very moment , GS Cafe would still serve a purpose long into the future for those seeking to make sense of their Way experience. Some people made a considerable life investment in TWI and are struggling to deal with that aftermath. They have a liftime of Way experiences to match up with those of others just to see what it was all about and to see if they were perhaps imagining certain things. It might take someone years to do this and this forum is hell of a lot more convenient for them to accomplish that then writing letters or driving around the country trying to reconcile with others. If you've "gotten over it" then cool - but others haven't and it doesn't cost you, me, or anyone a dime to be here. Let people do what they will. GS Cafe doesn't need to be like some "insider hollywood" show to be relevant.

(HCW said) In terms of perspective, this is just not a true statement. Err Well this is confusing and contradicts your later statement: Whatever that means..... And later Based on this remark I suggest you are in a very,very small group of people. There was no way to get the kind of info on VPW say in 75 that one might get here now. The info on plagiarism, motorcoach liasons, cancer was not routinely discussed partly because this was a time that VPW enjoyed the pinnacle of his success and those who did know about his "problems" certainly didn't go public with that information. Information relating to his cancer and glass eye were kepy under wraps (even after people knew something wasn't quite right). Some parents didn't necessarily like him and other religious figures might have called him a cult leader but to the starry-eyed, youthful novitiates he was nearly divine and there were *NEVER* any open discussions about his problems (like the rank and file believer would know of anyway at that time). What inside critics there were got quickly shown the door and that was that. Don't know when you were in but to talk badly about VPW in say 75 was NOT tolerated. Not from the inside it wasn't. If you claim that it was then you simply do not know what you are talking about. VPW was no biblical hero and wasn't even close. He abused the trust of many and became a rich man off the free labor provided by people wanting to make a difference. He was lecherous, boozy, loved the spotlight, stole his "research" from others", and lied about his illness (when being open about it would have help others with similar problems). He doesn't get off the hook because "hey people in the bible did bad things too". Lets just all hookup and have wild orgies because "hey people in the bible did it too". We can always get back into "fellowship" afterwards right ? Oh you jump over so many "facts" in your haste to portray VPW as some type of great spiritual leader. The "fact is" that the late 60s and early 70s provided tremendous growth for a variety of alternative religions NOT just TWI. There were plenty of young people seeking meaning in life. You remember the "hippy movement" dontcha ? People dropping out living in communes, driving around the country in busses ? Going to concerts, investigating different types of spirtualities. I know - I was one of millions who did this. TWI was one of many places I checked out. So called "cult" participation declined in the 80s for The Moonies, and Children of The Light. Lots of people grew up and got on with their lives after realizing that being a hippy or pursuing ideals over reality didn't put food on the table. Lots of people left (like me) and got on with their lives. Also consider this VPW's successors were far less adept at running the show. LCM had the charisma of a clown and his persona , such as it was, was a cross between a homophobic , angry, athlete "of the spirit" whose only claim to fame was riding the bench er I mean playing collegiate football. No claims to being "the teacher" or having an illustrious "research" record, or having a moment of epiphany where there was snow on the gas pumps. LCM had no theatre or "down home" preacher mannerims (though he later tried to affect these). It was bad theatre all around. Ah this is a gem ! So if we criticize VPW then we are guilty of "flinging mud" ? This is like the VPW loyalist saying we can't discuss VPW's problems because to do so would be to speak ill of the dead. Its just a way to try to shut down discussions of VPW's problems.

Well lets put this into perspective. Much of what we know today about VPW wasn't known during his reign as prez of TWI and even until after his death. And even until the creation of WayDale and GS Cafe ! During that time not much was revealed about the sources of his books, why he chose to self-publish, his education, and associated past with other key figures in Way history. In fact he enjoyed an exalted status during his hey dey and the phrase "when we were kings" comes to mind when thinking of VPW's lifestyle during the 70s. After his death details started to emerge and only later did some of us learn about the true nature of his death (which was deliberately not disclosed). This led to more examination which led to more questions and only after a very long while did we start to get a more accurate picture of VPW and some of the problems he had had all along. So its only after his death that a reasonable examination of his life could begin because he was untouchable during the glory day. I distinctly recall being given the evil eye of reproof for asking questions about his PhD work. This was round 76 and no one and I mean NO ONE could question the (alleged) integrity of "Doctor Victor Paul Weirwille, The Teacher" and expect to be welcomed to Twig. Some people want to remember VPW as a hot shot while others prefer the reality. Sure some get deep into the details that were kept secret and stay there which I don't think is so bad. Those so called "glory days" were whitewashed and we now know that which is why many are not pleased with those who would represent VPW as just "a human with the normal problems". VPW knew what he was doing and knew he was being given adulation and was taking advantage of it... He could have stopped the madness and not abused the trust people placed in him. But he did abuse this trust. I recall once VPW teaching about those Corps and dedicated minsitry people who had been charged to minister to people and how serious a commitment it was for them to not betray the trust of those newcomers to the word: MAtt. 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. VPw said that this was the fate of those in TWI (primarily the ordained) who took advantage of the trust. By his own standard its clear that he felt that those in a positon of authority were held to a much higher standard. You cannot let VPW off the hook with the "oh he was just a man" think. It doesn't fly - not even by his own teachings. Interestingly this same verse was later used under LCM to apply to those seeking a departure from TWI. This verse was used to keep people from leaving and was something of a precursor to the infamous greasespot by midnight remark.

Expressing your opinion ? The fact that you feel GS Cafe is reptitive is fine. The fact that you think others should feel that it is repetitive is *not* fine. You think that its "redundant" and that GS keeps plowing the same field over and over. People arrive here on thier own schedule, remain here as long as they see fit, and leave when they are ready. I don't recall that anyone generated a "its been long enough now" metric for this forum. There is no "sell by date" on the material here. Thats cool that you've gotten what you wanted out of GSpot and now feel that you are done with it but don't try to make that decision for someone else. You crossed a line with that one. Oh and this: it sounds like Twi all over again, only under a different name ! >> It sure does ! I can make my own decisions on the relevancy of GS Cafe. If its old news so be but let me make that my decision please

This is an internet forum. Its virtual. No one is forced to come here. The effort required to post here is minimal. Its not like its a "life" investment. Maybe some people scour every post. I don't know and if they do then so be it. I don't care. People can work jobs , go to college, have families, go to a church, and still post here. In TWI the only possibility was to serve TWI. There was little time for anything else. I don't see how GS Cafe can be represented as a place for people whose only function in life is to moan about TWI. Besides if a person doesn't like it here then why do they keep coming ? Who is twisting anyone's arm ? Seems to me that people get fed up only when they start encountering opinions that don't match their own. Debate, disagree, and discuss but when people "pick up their toys" and wanna leave its a sure bet they got their feelings hurt so they wanna make like the entire forum has a problem. Its a tired act. Lots of posters have tried to dismiss Waydale and Gs Cafe as a collection of whiners, malcontents, infidels, reprobates, and lots of other names I can't recall at the moment. And almost all of these people still had some type of soft spot for TWI or its leaders. Of course there was always the "get over it" crowd who ,incidentally, were some of the most accusative posters ever. And some of them were former leaders and corps who were trying to get people to "forgive" them so they could rest easy. Incidentally - lots of Way leaders (past and present) want you to "get over it" because they know they have done lots of horrible things to people and they are lookng for an easy way out. LEt people talk about what they want. It doesn't cost anyone a dime to come here (expect maybe the monthly ISP bill) so how the hell is it a problem for someone if this place exists to discuss the problems with TWI ? Is it taking food out of someone's mouth ? Is it depriving someone of a job ? Peoples' lives were impacted by the evil perpetrated by TWI and its leaders Its not some damn joke. Some were heavily invested in an organization that turned on them and slandered them. So now they have a chance to talk about it yet someone else wants them to quit "being redundant" ? Who has the problem here ?

Good posts here. Relative to my own experience I was not in any type of crisis mode in my life when I encountered TWI. I saw young people like myself who were into the Bible and that was attractive to me so I checked it out. And while I met some good people while in TWI I give them the credit for that NOT TWI. They were good people before they got involved in TWI. For whatever reason lots of people defend TWI experience by claiming that made good friends. I've met some nice people down at the police station when I was bailing someone out of jail but I don't think that is my preferred way to make friends. You don't have to give years of your life to a cult just to make friends though some argue that. Besides those friends are of the fair weather variety. Once someone was M&Aed they saw just how fickle and uncaring those "friends" were. One bit of Way speak that continues to bug me is the phrase "he/she has such a heart for god" and its typically employed to defend someone who was an ahole. Its like "well sure he was wrong and could be mean at times but he sure had a heart for god". We ALL had a heart for God which is why we were in TWI to begin with ! There are many people in churches the world over who have a heart for God ! But that doesn't give anyone an excuse to be mean to someone. Back to the whole "TWI saved me". Yea I ran into people who were deep into drugs and booze and they cleaned up their act. One guy told me that he didn't know how to make up a bed properly until he joined TWI. Wow. (Such a great reason to champion TWI !). I suggested if thats the type of thing he wanted to learn he could join the army. Maybe TWI taught some people basic discipline and even personal hygeine though thats not the more common case. But even if TWI "lifted you out of the gutter" the goal of any life is to make progress - not sit around and wait to be told what to do.

mzimagine, its cool that you want to reach out a bit. I don't have a problem with that nor do I suppose that others do here either. On the other hand please understand that we all work out or post way living on our own terms which might involve different actions and attitudes that most likely will vary from person to person. Each has his own schedule of , for lack of a better word, recovery so each makes progress in a time and fashion that accomodates the person. There is no need for us to proress as a group or feel that we all must be of the same mind. Thats what TWI wanted but thats no longer an issue. We have the freedom to do as we wish.

In all sincerity here - my take on this is that maybe demonstrating "God's unconditional love" is best shown by leaving people alone and in peace. It would be somewhat arrogant of me to assume that others need my contact to enhance their quality of life. I don't mind checking in on people I haven't seen in a while but I respect the fact that they might be in a different place altogether so I really need a good reason to want to interrupt them under the presumption that they need "god's love". God can handle that without needing me to intervene. I recall getting contacted by someone from TWI who called me to see "just how you were doing" though it turned out she needed a place to store her furniture and she "seemed to recall" that I had a large basement. Of course this came up only at the very end of the conversation (though it was clear she was wanting something).

In my twig we used to make jokes about this line. We modified it to something like "Hey don't condemn yourself - thats the job of the branch leader or visiting corps. They have forgotten more than you'll ever know about condemning people".

Here is the mind blower. If someone who has left TWI seeks therapy, participates in splinter groups, goes to maintsream churches, or even avoids religion altogether no one much cares because each is free to choose their post way pat without seeking the approval of others. We see people at GSpot debating the merits of various approaches all the time but nothing seems to be as polarizing as a lawsuit. The moment someone launches a lawsuit its like they did something *wrong* or are others feel that "hey they didn't suffer any more than I did" and therefore want to dismiss such activities as the result of greed or petty grievances designed to get a payday. If someone in their post way life wishes to chose this path then thats their business ( or yours or mine should we make that choice). Just like if they wanna buddy up with former Way leaders in a splinter thats their choice also. But no one gets riled unless there is a possible payout. In the postWay life no one owns another's path to reintegration with society at large. There is no compelling need to be like-minded so let each get on with life as they see fit. If that invloves a lawyer then how does that disturb another's peace ? Some former wayfers can live with others being a die-hard for a splinter but not pursuing the Way in court ? Since when is that a bad thing ?

Many Weirwille loyalists wind up using the "you are speaking ill of the dead" defense in an effort to silence critics of VPW and the early Way which many of those same loyalists feel to be the "good ole days". I find it incredibly odd that way leaders and the more "dedicated" follwers were entirely comfortable commenting negatively ,in public meetings, on someone who died ("their believing wasn't strong enough", "The were out of fellowship", "the let satan in through the hedge of protection") yet its somehow profoundly insulting if people wish to talk about the problems (and there were many) of VPW. double standard isn't it ? It wasn't until *after* VPW's death that many people became aware of the cancer, sexual impropriety, and plagiarism so its not like people even had a chance to clear this up since he had already passed. Yet the weirwille preservationist wishes to deny these people the right to ask questions on the basis that it is rude to speak ill of the dead. Nice trick isn't it ? well no not really. It really stinks. Even while vpw was alive he wasn't open about the nature of his illness or what took place in the back of the motorcoach. He wouldn't engage biblical scholars in discussions (except perhaps in the early days in order to co-opt their knowledge), nor did he volunteer his alleged "expertise" in the holy spirit field to help "outsiders" or even the local community in which he lived. TWI was always a closed shop to outsiders. The point is that engaging vpw in a debate or asking him to explain things in great detail was an impossible task. He wouldn't do these things nor would his suck up yes men even allow it. So given all this it makes total sense that it was only after vpw's death that one could even begin to conduct anything close to a reasonable analysis of VPW's works (such as they were) and impact on twi.

The lawsuit activity represents a method to address the abuse within TWI. Its not like TWI , its leaders, past or present are ever going to acknowledge just how whacked they are and were. I've seen lawsuits initiated over far less serious situations. Guess its cool for someone to sue McDonalds over hot coffee ? Now THATS a legitimate use of the legal system ? I don't hear people whining about that or the woman who tried to sue Wendy's over a finger she planted in the chili ? Where is the righteous indignation about that ? But someone DARES sue the one and only great church...and even worse...without first coming to Gspot and asking for general approval ? The nerve of some people to exclude others ! Gspot is not a judicial system and no one (former way or not) needs the approval of this forum to address the problems in their life using standard legal remedies. I don't think its this huge problem for people to accept that someone can litigate for medical malpractice yet when someone goes after TWI its like they just have to be mercenary SOBS with no other goal than to "steal the ABS". How convenient a "defense" for those who continue to worship at the altar of VPW and TWI. Anyone who would oppose those who sue TWI are either still in love with their lives as a Wayfer or are just simply jealous that someone might get a payday out of it while other Wayfers are left high and dry. Oh boo hoo. If you don't like it that people are going after TWI then sue those people ! In the meantime let the courts handle it.

Steve I wasn't repsonding to anyone in this thread. I was addressing the media and general discussions I've heard emerge relative to the wedding. And since this thread existed I decided to post. Simple as that.

Doesn't matter who Charles marries - he would be criticized. At least he is marrying someone age appropriate. For all the bulls***t he has been enduring relative to Camilla it would have been easier for him to marry some 22 year old sex symbol. Would this be more accpetable ? In general , as I hear people talk about this topic, I find it odd that people who can't make 2 or 3 marriages work dump on Charles for blowing 1 marriage. He was into Camilla before Diana and he didn't forget about Camilla and is finally doing right by her instead of marrying some bimbo or someone his family recommended. He is marrying someone he has been into since he was a young man. So I don't get the whining and criticism. He is pursuing and marrying someone he has obviously loved since a very long time - So. to the naysayers ! Back the hell off and give the guy some space.

Do not underestimate the impact that Way training has on the exWayfer's opinion of the Catholic church and mainstream churches in general. I know plenty of former way people who have been out for 15 years who characterize *all* major denominations as being "evil". For me its distrubing that they don't realize that their fear and loathing of these institutions are based on comments by Way leadership as opposed to personal experience. Now. the Catholic church has its problems and needs to deal straightforwardly with the molestation issues and even with the whole celibacy thing that is a farce in the minds of most even devout catholics who might not admit in public. Obviously its cheaper for the church to support a single person than it is them and their family which is most likely why they still push the celibacy thing even when they know that many priests take lovers at some point (not all of them are gay or after kids either). In the end I hope people make decisions about the catholic church based on information and personal experience as opposed to residual waybrain. The same is true for other denominations also. Don't let what vic or craig said rule your brain in this regard.

Well first of all its always been easy to get steroids in the more serious gyms. In fact, back in the early 70s in California it was commonplace for dedicated bodybuilders to exchange information on where to get them and how to use them. Law enorcement was not concerned with this element since it represented such a small slice of overall controlled substance traffic. Also some of those steroids weren't even classified as controlled substances since it never occurred to law enforcement that people would seek out these drugs. Okay whatever. Steroids were part of that scene for sure and it crept into popular sports in the 70s and stretched out in the 80s and became de riguer in the 90s for professional athletes. If your opponent is using supplements then you feel you have to also just to be able to match his/her performance. Nothing new. Steroid use has trickled down into the consumer level where you have average joes "juicing". Lots of these people are looking for shortcuts to being shape. The sad reality is that they are't in shape. They just pump some iron (usually their chest and arms), and "juice up" so they can get "HOOGE" (a word the college students use) but they lack cardiovscular endurance and have no overall fitness. In fact they damage their body and the benefits associated with the drug rapidly disappear after they stop taking the drugs. Also the average joe 'roid user isn't even really a bodybuilder. Its just a time saver (he thinks) to getting "in shape". The popualrity of these drugs are just another example of our "quick fix" mentality wherein people want it NOW ! They just can't workout over time and wait for the results. They feel that it should be here NOW ! Its a sure bet that things like human growth hormone will probably improve in quality since it does have legitimate uses (for those with thyroid problems, degenerative diseases, alzheimers prevention). This is good news since it could save lives but its also going to happen that average people want to use this stuff because they aren't happy with who they are. They want to get "ripped" or they want to avoid a mid life crisis or whatever. There is a balance though. Its reasonable for people to choose regular exercise as a means to a truly healthy lifestyle. Anytime you artificially stimulate or suppress metabolic processes for long periods of time there are consequences. There are NO exceptions to this. So those that think that drugs or so called "peformance enhancing substances" are okay , well they are just ignorant (or are consciously ignoring the truth). As you know, the US now has an obesity epidemic. People , especally the younger generations, are , quite simpy, fat because they make poor nutritional decisions. The problem is that their quality of life will diminish if they don't do something about it. Hopefully they don't trade once vice (junk food) for another (steroids/growth hormone). I do reject the concept that those who actively engage in regular physical fitness activities (and aren't on "the juice" - again NOT steroid users) are "fitness addicts" which is how sometimes the are portrayed (usually by those who are very out of shape). There are plenty of people who do enjoy being in shape and exercising and I hardly see it as a problem that they choose going to the gym over going to happy hour at a bar where they drink 4 or 5 beers and eat a plate of nachos. Now. Lots of people who are out of shape sometimes want to criticize those who are doing something about it. Why ? Jealousy perhaps ? I think there is something really wrong with a society that emphasizes personal comfort over personal health. You don't need to join a gym to be in shape. Walking or running 3 times a week for at least 20 minutes is an excellent start. You can still have your "reward" though as time goes by and you get in shape you won't want that. You won't want to eat half a gallon of chocolate ice cream or eat a large piece of carrot cake at lunch or cram down a bagel loaded with cream cheese for breakfast. Hopefully people can learn that there is a middle ground between the steroid users and the couch potatoes which represent two extremes.

I apologize to myself and my blood family for not leaving TWI earlier.

PFAL RULES! Happy Weekend, one and all! 10 classes nationwide ! Wow. Guess we'll have to reprint some of those green cards. But hey ..How many people per class ? It doesn't count if its (as I strongly suspect) former wayfers taking a trip down memory lane or the children of former wayfers who are being roped into viewing it.... Tell me what you think of VPW and I'll tell you how far you are going to get in the Word.

someone would have to give me at least $1,000 to watch PFAL again.