diazbro

Hmmm. I know that when I indicated a preference for going to College over going WOW I got an extensive lecture (aka reaming) on the concept of "worldly knowledge" and how I would be wasting my time pursuing the "knowledge of men". I was even led to believe that by placing college over WOW that I might be opening myself up to "devil spirits" (the default Way argument). I'm glad I ignored them. What drove it home for me was during my second time through PFAL. They had signed up a local physician, (someone's Father I think), and altered the class start time to jibe with his schedule - something they would never do for "Joe believer". Anyway, I could not understand why it was okay to elevate this guy, (who most certainly went to College), while simultaneously telling people to stay away from higher learning. Of course it was because they could use his status as a physician to promote TWI. I didn't even bother to bring up this massive inconsistency in behavior to anyone. It would have been pointless and a waste of time and energy. This event did solidify my plans to depart TWI although it was more of a gradual exit as opposed to a single event.

Forgiveness is an evergreen topic. Here is my take on The Way's 'version'. I've noticed that some of the more aggressive and obnoxious people I've encountered want others to forgive them. They want to be let off the hook and will many times invoke the concept of forgiveness to strong arm others into doing it. Its self serving. People should forgive only when it feels right and they have had the time to put things into perspective. In absence of that one might offer forgiveness without a full understanding of what they are forgiving. Look at it this way. God could have forgiven Adam and Eve on the spot and hit the reset button though he did not. It took time for the prophecies to be fulfilled and the concept of the new birth to manifest. There was a passage of time before we could "relink" or reconcile to God as before. I feel the same concept applies in our daily lives. I'm naturally inclined to forgive though I want the person(s) I'm forgiving to understand their role in the situation just as God did with humanity. For me if someone is insistent or being pushy about it then its a sign of a guilty conscience on their part. They want it all to be over so they can move on. But if you offer it to quickly you might be cheating yourself. Take your time, search your heart, and offer the forgiveness at the appropriate moment - NOT because someone is demanding it. And, if I'm the one who needs the forgiving then I want to indicate to the person I've harmed to realize that I'm owning my part. That I'm not attempting to minimize the offense. Once we have an understanding that's when forgiveness can work its near magical transformation and restoration.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose..... First, if you want to talk to a real expert on "faking it" then maybe you should talk to my ex wife. What a pro. As for me the "mannies", especially interpretation and prophecy, "worked" to the extent that a person had pre-saturated their thinking in the bible and way teachings. If you have a number of pre-compiled stock expressions, phrases, and ideas floating around in your brain then it is possible to produce, on demand, a reasonably coherent statement that approximates something original. As for me, most of the interpretations and prophecy I heard always sounded like something I had heard previously at Twig. Practice makes perfect and those excellor sessions seemed to reinforce that. (However, one notes that there were never excellor sessions for the advanced class at least to the best of my knowledge). I recall the PFAL session where Vic was saying his "Lo Shanta Mala Kacita" and during session 12 you would hear some "lo shantas" being uttered around the room which sort of supports the idea that many were appropriating, perhaps unconsciously, the words of Vic. Many here, myself included, encountered the idea of SIT in advance of their experience with TWI. Though I won't claim that the "the tongues" sounded drastically different from those I heard while in TWI. I recall the oft-repeated story that someone heard their native language being spoken during a believer's meeting. Of course the person relating the story was never the party in question. It was always "a friend" or someone's "Wow brother". Not saying it never happened but could never seem to run into anyone who claimed it firsthand. Now, I did experience something interesting relative to healing. I had a medical problem at one point that was so arcane and bizarre that most physicians I encountered didn't know anything about it. They had to look it up - thus for a layman to have knowledge of it, even incidental, was highly improbable. Even to articulate it, even in non medical terms, would have been difficult. And this was like ages ago so there was no Internet or casual access to the deluge of information waiting behind a web surfing session. Anyway a friend of mine in TWI, (a young man at the time wo was barely out of high school), ministered to me upon my request. Actually, he was kind of nervous about it as he didn't really have much experience with it but within like a minute he nailed the problem in a specific, succinct, and completely unambiguous fashion. As he was praying he paused before stating the problem because, (as he later told me), he thought it way too strange to even mention. But he got it dead on. 35 years or so down the line I'm still trying to put that one into perspective. Interestingly, I never had another experience like that.

Johnny, Okay DUDE.... (or "BRUH") I don't see it as a trick or a scam. Maybe he did have a casual social encounter which led to the revelation (no pun intended) that the guy at the gym or whereever used to function as a general with a controversial religious organization. Fine. But what I'm seeing now is some very strange almost voyeuristic need for some Gspotters to hang onto every word this poster has to say. Whats next "What color workout clothes was Craig wearing when you last saw him ? Did he say what his favorite TV show was ? Did he speak about anyone in particular ? Oh please tell us Freud ! Its so important. Did he say anything about homos ? ". Seems to me that some still very much care about what LCM does and thinks to the extent that they are willing to accept any and all information that someone wants to offer as the equivalent as "gold" or some special insight into the mind of some bully. Do people really need to know if Craig is living in, for example, an apartment or is "underemployed" ? Does that mean that much to anyone aside from trivia value ? Does it change the fact that he was a cult leader who treated many abusively ? I don't think so. But if someone needs an anonymous poster to "fill in the blanks" about what Craig has been doing in some period of years okay. But don't ask me to treat this person like he has "the words" to provide some type of key information that will drastically change things. It is weird, in my opinion, that someone would show up and start talking about experiences with LCM and ,worse, call him(her)self "Freud" as if they were in some elevated position to offer perspective and advice on how Craig was getting along. Its just another "bloke" on the internet as far as I'm concerned. What's next ? Someone is going to call me a "LCM lover" because I don't want to hang on to every word that a new arrival has to say about him ? I readily accept the fact that there is interest in what this poster has to say and I share that interest. I genuinely do. But I pose some basic questions about this person and others act as if I have offended the very source all true knowledge - as if my questions would offend Freud and he would stop posting thus depriving us of all those salacious details about LCM. Give me a freakin' break ! Its cool if he/she wants to post and as I've said, oh for the third time now, I'm not trying to stop that ! The fact that I don't care about Freud's post as much as others might appears to be a major source of irritation but so be it. If you want to hang onto every post that Freud has to say as if it were the latest installment in some prime time soap opera than by all means have it. But don't make the mistake that everyone has a similar compulsion. Yeah , Johnny, that *wasn't* a shout. Make no mistake about it..

Thanks for the unsolicited analysis though I didn't really request one. As I've stated I am curious to know more about Mr. Freud and his motivations. The fact that you know all you need to know is fine by me. I'm happy to see where they lead. Living vicariously through Freud to get insight into Craig's current state of affairs is bit interesting and it does seem to have a certain appeal amongst the Gspot crowd. I'm not attempting to stop that. Says who ?

Err Waybrain ? I call it natural, healthy skepticism but to each his own.

As I've said , I don't have a problem with the continued posting. I would like to know more about WHY he/she/they is/are posting. For example I know lots about the Boston Church of Christ (later the International Church of Christ) which is widely regarded as a cult. Yet I don't post vague references about myself on their recovery websites and claim to have an nteraction with former leaders of that organization. I suppose I could but there would need to be motivation to do so. Anyway from what I have read I have concluded there is an attempt to represent LCM as a fallen man and perhaps that is true but Freud won't tell us much about himself and keeps things vague which doesn't appear to be a concern for most though it is for me. Perhaps your curiousity surrounding Freud has been satisfied but mine hasn't. Why would you have a problem with that ? I'm not attempting to block posts , call in a moderator, or call for an inquisition.

Okay but Freud mentioned that he didn't really know much about TWI and even if he did meet LCM why the interest in getting people here to accept the image of LCM as a remorseful man ? What is his (or her) stake in all this ? What is the payoff ?

Whether or not Freud, Jung are on the level does't bother me so much. But I do wonder why someone with no interest in TWI wants to post and ,furthermore, assume the role of an analyst in an apparent attempt to "reconcile" us to LCM. Some people have more time than others - so be it but I stand by my earlier opnions about LCM's alleged personal sorrow and pain. If he does feel this way it is only because he got booted from the limelight and his exalted position. NOT of out any sense of having done wrong to anyone. I know enough about human nature to know that the bully types seldom come around and never face the music about their abusive approach.

I once presented a question to leadership about te disparity between the number and frequency of miracles described in the New Testament and the current times we live in. I had just completed PFAL and was sure that the signs and miracles would start coming on a daily basis. After all the green card promised all manner of wonderful results from taking PFAL. Before I submitted my question I asked around to people to see if they were healing and getting healed in a miraculous fashion. I quickly learned that many of us new grads weren't seeing those "signs and miracles" at least comparable to those found in the Bible. I also quickly learned that those who had been in TWI longer were much more inclined to call simple things "miracles". If your sore throat went away in a couple of days that was a miracle. If you found a parking spot at the Mall near the entrance then that was a mircale and so on. So these people would tell you that their day was full of miracles but I wasn't buying it. Their standards for what constitutes a miracle were quite low. So I submitted my question and at the same time told the Branch person what I had done. He didn't like it saying that it wasn't even a good question especially since I had just graduated PFAL and didn't know anything about applying the principles of God's word to get the true abundance. It sounded like a dodge then and it definitely does now. He told me that if I wanted to see miracles that I would have to learn about prosperity via the concept of abundant sharing - that God couldn't help me until I gave God his due on a financial basis. Man, I was floored. I had just completed PFAL and they are telling me that I have to give money to get health , miracles, God's respect ? So my experience with "Getting answers" seemed to be directly related to first giving money to TWI before I could expect anything from God. Some ministry huh ?

Guys like LCM seldom if ever reach a point of contrition in their lives. The depression and sadness they experience is typically the result of having lost influence and not being in the limelight anymore. Their sadness and pain is based on their loss of stature and certainly not out of regret for having hurt anyone. Were LCM to be somehow restored to his previous position he would pick up where left off and might in fact become worse as he would see it as God's work and think "Hey if I were really that bad then God wouldn't have brought me back. Now I'll REALLY clean house". I always think of LCM as the bully type who abused others and saw it as something that was necessary for him to maintain control over the situation. The fact that he had to resort to obscentiies, screaming, and hatred of others (homosexuals, non Way participants "corpses") shows only that his self-image was fragile enough to be threatended by any number of personal demons (in a figurative sense) and insecurities. I am aware that LCM used to play up his jock image but he really didn't get much playing time in college so for him to be calling the shots at the TWI was catch-up time for him. Also LCM was very vain and when he started losing his hair I think he got worse - like he had to prove that he could still "score" or that he had to keep proving that he was "the prez".

Even then you never stick to the topic. You get boxed in an try to move on to something else. Its an indirect way of crying uncle.

The "word of god" that "Dr Wierwille was teaching" was in most cases stolen from someone else. And in those cases it was just the works of other men. This explains a lot such as why you were/are so powerfully attracted to self-proclaimed spiritual leaders. Basically you are confessing that even before your time with TWI that you were very accustomed to participating in absolute, demanding organizations that left no gray areas.

Yep. Trying that sidestep once again. You never stick to the topic OM.

I was never comfortable with the model that believers should be "asking Father" about every minute detail in life - what clothes to wear, where to park the car, what food to prepare for dinner, who to speak to first in a group, what to say on a job interview. This concept promoted a very childish existence wherein the believer had some umbilical cord and to God and couldn't function on their on without continual reliance upon some greater force to tell them what to do in life. Imagine if we reared our children like that - to always be asking us for advice in every little thing. They would never grow and develop problem solving skills and the self-confidence that comes with self-reliance. God gave us brains and intellect and he expects us to develop and use them. Sure. we all run into situations that present a dilemma but making mistakes are part of life and shouldn't be seen as evidence of not being godly or in fellowship. Seems to me that the person who seeks continual advice from God for all of life's details surely must be fearful since they cannot trust themselves to make a decision independently.

I love it John. You are getting back to your old self.

This is related to the topic but slightly different. As we know, TWI never really emphasized the cross or the crucifixion choosing rather to discuss the resurrection hence the Dove pin that was so popular. Crosses were verboten and TWI routinely dismissed mainstream denominations for talking up the crucifixion even going so far as to suggest that the devil had somehow made non Way churches blind to the resurrection and what it accomplished. Actually I never though this nor did I see it in practive in any of the churches I attended before or after TWI. Sure. Lots of churches have crosses though they are there to remind the congregants of the price that was paid and as a call to a better standard of living. I never once heard sermons which glorified death or that fixated uniquely on the crucifixion to the exclusion of the resurrection. In TWI I did appreciate the teachings on being new and free in christ and that was cool but little did I realize that many wrong things were accomplished under that concept - that being "free" gave license to do all sorts of things as long as one "could handle it". One of the strangest things I ever heard while in TWI was from a Corps guy who told me something along the lines of the following. (It was in 1976 that I heard this so I can't recall the exact language). "Do you know that Doctor is so in tap that he can check out scenes that for you and I would result in our being out of fellowship ? He can do that because he has renewed his mind to such a high level that he can resist temptations that would blow the aveage believer's mind. I hope I can be like that one day". I was floored then and I'm floored now. Little did I know that this kind of thinking was common enough that people starting using it to sleep around and/or do whatever they wanted as long as the "could handle it" and "had their minds renewed". Later from reading Waydale and Greasespot I realized that there were in fact those people who thought so highly of VPW that he was something special and therefore deserving of indulgences for his bad behavior. And some who thought that he was in fact connected to God in a way similar to how some feel about the Pope. Of course in that case The Pope is the counterfeit to VPW's genuine. At times it really does seem to me that some people actually worship VPW and perhaps feel that sticking up for him and trying to get his problems dismissed from consideration will make God look more fondly upon anyone who would defend VPW. I'm not sure I would post a picture about any of this but I can certainly understand why the idea and resulting action occurred. I've posted that some people feel that VPW is on the right hand of God in place of Jesus Christ. I mean all that talk in TWI of the absent christ suggested that JC was basically in a glass case somewhere with a sign that says "break only when its time for the Return - of course for the benefit of Way believers only". The absent christ thing was a mechanism to get your minds ready for the "present truth" and the latest homosexual tirades (they were blamed for most everyting were't they ? Craig's hairloss ? "Homos infiltrated HQ"). Anyway lots of these "displacement" strategies were in place long before LCM's heyday. I mean that whole "The Teacher" thing said it all. You write your question to "The Teacher" and he answers all your questions. Let "The Teacher" what a particular verse "REALLY" means - which is another way of saying, if you hang with TWI then we can do this for you on a regualr basis - give you the TRUE meaning and how to apply it. VPW actively sought to displace the Bible with Way classes, books, and classes. Sure. The Bible was there but how many people had wide margined bibles crammed full of Way notes. You didn't read the bible you read what TWI had told you about the bible first. Hmmm. Its it "thoroughly" or "throughly" ? I wonder. Look. VPW knew what he was doing from a very early time - from the power struggle that united the West faction under his power. That had nothing to do with "The Word" and everything to do with a massive ego that grew unchecked.

speaking of which why weren't there excellor sessions at the advanced class ? Has anyone ever attended an advanced class at which there were excellor sessions ? Seems to me that given the special treatment and preparations for the advanced class that they would have left absolutely nothing to chance and would have planned down to the smallest detail information on how to operate the other six manifestations. They sure looked at all verses and details relating to the worship manifestations but for getting revelation they didn't have a cookbook or recipes for operating ,for example, the maninfestation of healing. Perhaps they didn't know how to operate it which is why they didn't have specific instructions or excellor sessions. Seems to me that the only they paid much attention to was the "discerning of spirits" which they went completely overboard with - but even then it wasn't codified.

I've heard many people in TWI who claimed to be "fluent at SIT with interpretation" and they were always rarin' to go when it came time for the mannies. Aside from their rabid desire to jump at the chance to "manifest" I can't say that what I heard in their "tongue" or their "interpretation" was that different from those of anyone else. Sure. when people first started with SIT they would stammer a bit and perhaps speak in a low voice but after hanging out with those who were bolder . they usually upped the volume and would usually start sounding more like others in their Twig. And if you floated around to different Twigs in different areas you might hear some variation but I noticed that withing a given Twig , the sound of the tongue and the resulting interpretations would become homogenized. Its like each Twig had its own "signature" tongues sound.

It is mind blowing to me that people tolerate behavior in VPW that they wouldn't even begin to tolerate in themselves, a loved one, a friend , or a co-worker. VPW could swill drambuie, aggressively pursue women, aggressively plagiarize, conceal and deceive people about his illness just to preserve the continuity of his "teachings" yet his supporters (and that is putting it kindly) don't care. But these same supporters would have 12 heart attacks if someone they knew behaved in this fashion ESPECIALLY if the person claimed to be a "teacher" or a "man of god". The better question to ask is why wouldn't someone be concerned about VPW's behavior especially since information about him was so lacking back in the day. For many it is only now that details relating to his behavior are emerging so why wouldn't it be reasonable to discuss it ?

Is this a Batman reference ? Vincent Price's "EggHead" perhaps ? How egg-citing ! Perhaps VPW was just "egg-centric"

Mike, like lots of Way die-hards, would rather receive negative attention than no attention at all. Since society in general has no particular knowlwege of VPW or PFAL he has no other place to go to get attention except this online forum. Its not like he can start a conversation about "Doctor's gift ministies" down at the local barbershop because no one would know what the hell he was talking about or even care. So this is his only outlet and place "to shine". But He is not alone - there are other posters here like him who think that they are going to get more rewards at the bema because they stick up for VPW and his "perfect" class (that was assembled from stolen sources and 50's pop psychology).

In my early Way days (early 70s) there was lots of what I call hippy enthusiasm that was very postiive and very appealing to those outside looking in which accounts for the explosive growth of TWI. This youthful momentum seemed a reasonable foundation upon which to move forward but by the mid 80s there was a reversal and things weren't working well at all due to the rules and regulations imposed by TWI and its leaders. My point here is that the success of TWI had little to do with "the word" or some half-baked emulation of the "1st century church" than it did the undeniable strength, energy, an optimism of the youth who made it all happen. (There was a communal spirit that was residual from the 60s). Yet TWI wishes to take all the credit for any success and none of the accountability for their failues. When I think about the more positive aspects of TWI experience it has more to do with the people than it did with the organization and its red tape. What does this have to do with your question ? Well for starters I don't think it can be commonly agreed that everyone had lots of mind blowing supernatural experiences while in TWI. In fact I can only think of one incident that qualifies as being interesting. More interesting is that I encountered more impressive experiences BEFORE and AFTER my time with TWI , which casts doubts on TWI's ability to promote an alleged comprehensive knowledge of "the word" and the "mannies". In my mind its amazing to me that more former Way people *Aren't* agnostic given how horribly TWI mismanaged the scriptures and their application. I've never lost my optimism but its been tempered by reality so that I proceed cautiously and with patience before I "believe" in something. I'm not agnostic but I'm definitely a "hard sell" and I'm proud of it. In the early days of Waydale and later Gspot there was a tendency for people who still felt an affinity towards Way teachings to characterize those who weren't as having "Thrown the baby out with the bath water". The implication was that if you didn't still go at the bible with that trademark gung-ho Way attitude than you simply could not call yourself a christian. Of course this isn't at all true yet some of the hardliners still had that "you are either standing or you aren't" mentality and this made for some pretty fiery exchanges. OVer time this type of thing has died down and evern some of the former die-hards now attend mainstream churches which they formerly felt to be too "Watered-down" and ineffectual to consider. So just a few years ago it seemed that some former Way would consider anyone who didn't go to a splinter as being the functional equivalent of a non practicing christian. I'm glad that I haven't seen that attitude expressed in a long time. Some people still refer to themselves as christians while others do't want anything to do with the bible and there many more people in between. I think a better response to your question might in fact be a question - that is "why would *not* a former Way person seek to expand their horizons and investigate other avenues of spiritual and intellectual development ?" Being agnostic is but one possibility but there are many others none of which are mutually exclusive of key christian concepts. If ,when, and how often I pick up a bible and if, when, and how often I do it in the presence of others who are "like minded" is a very,very narrow way of defining the quality of someone's spirtual life but thats what TWI was all about it. While in TWI it was promoted that one always had to pursue the accumulation of spiritual knowledge with a fierce level of intensity and to do it any other way demonstrated a lazy attitude. There was a continual sense of hyper-vigilance that resulted in neuroses and patterns of thinking that confused intensity with committment. For some , the post Way life is difficult because they still feel that they have to approach the bible or church with that same rabid attitude but I don't know that God intended for us to live in such wrapped up state all the time. Of course TWI was all about creating a continual state of emergency to keep everyone fully engaged and their minds on the things of the way ministry even over and above the word. Most of the churches I've been to since my Way experience are of course more laid back in comparison but no less concerned about christianity and finding answers to the questions that are common to the human existence. I'm more laid back than I was than when I was in TWI and glad of it. If I appear to be a "lazy" or "part-time "christian to someone then its not a problem for me since I know that being a sleep-deprived fanatic for any cause isn't what its all about.

Way leaders had an astonishing lack of knowledge of basic science and technology yet they didn't let that get in the way of them acting as if they were authorities on these topics. One Limb leader once told me that God would provide this knowledge (science, medicine, etc) to people if they needed it so a person didn't need to go to college or become "obssessed" with things like science or engineering. In fact he went on to say that it was all "wordly knowledge" anyway so it was not good to pursue advanced education. Better to go WOW and the Corps program (Imagine that !). Gee. We like our electricity, running water, and heat don't we ? Imagine if those who came before us adopted this attitude that TWI leaders had - we'd would have been having twigs by candle light and writing on parchment with quill pens as we stoked the fire places. Lots of those Way leaders just didn't know when to quit with all their BS. The interesting thing is that we had a M.D. come to one of the PFAL classes (he didn't finish) and man did they kiss that guys behind. They were praising him and holding him up as an example of positive believing and goal attainment personified. Yet before this guy was on the scene, the Limb guy was telling people not to go to college , that it was "of the world and therefore of the devil". Doesn't make sense does it ? Not then and not now. Of course TWI would loved to have people like Doctors and Athletes float through because they could showcase them.

Nazz wasn't that good I'm afraid to say. I don't think TR would be opposed to that characterization. They did have 3 records and made some headway though this was like 67-69 and there were LOTS of bands doing interesting things other than straight pop tunes. I think Nazz was just a mere warm-up group for Todd and nothing else. Thats just my opinion. I must say that TR is far more accomplished than former Car's frontman Ric Ocasek who in my mind is quite limited in range and material. I am a bit surprised that TR would take this gig because he clearly can stand on his own and has written superior material and accomplished some excellent productions. From watching the footage it is clear that the Cars tunes are trivial for Todd to cover whereas Ocasek could barely keep his voice going and couldn't write much outside of a "new wave" style. In concert, OCasek wouldn't even move - he would just stand there and pose out behind his sunglasses and play muted chords on the guitar while Elliot Easton handled all the guitar work. When I think about it, the best Car's songs weren't even sung by Ocasek . It was the bass player Ben Orr. I know that OCasek wrote all the songs but after the second Cars record it was too much like bubblegum. One of their tunes was almost like a children's song you might hear on Sesame street. I will say this - Elliot Easton is a great guitarist and a prime example of someone who didn't need to hog the spot light with showy guitar solos - but could rock..