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Perhaps you are unfamiliar with trauma, PTSD or the sting of being ripped off. I was about to agree with you until you leaned on the cult trope of "crying about decades old offenses". These offenses include rape, sir. They include taking my teenage friends for abortions financed by a handful of money dipped from a free bucket of cash called "tithes". Perhaps giving your entire childhood to a movement that turned out to be a fraud run by grifters and perverts, stings a little. "Crying" isn.t weakness. It is a basic human emotions. If you don't cry while you're recovering from a literal attack on everything you are and everything you have, then you're the one with the problem. And by the way, I don't see anyone "crying" in the replies to your post. I see people who learned the hard way and are trying to warn you that these offenses, not all of which are "decades" old, hurt people. People still haven't recovered. Some people died, MAN. Do you have any idea the number of people who have died as a direct result of trauma from this cult? I have friends who died in accidents and were blamed for not being holy enough. It's gross. There is also no rule that says if you're "crying" about the way's literal crimes, that means that we aren't walking with Jesus. That is a fallacy. Both things can be true. You can walk with Jesus and be wise to The Way's bullcrap. And when we meet a person who says they went to HQ and everyone was so nice, we want you to know that trusting in this group will deceive you and you might not even know it's happening. If you want to stick your hand on the burner to see if fire is really hot, go ahead. You've been warned. But don't pretend that we are all crying. We were trying to warn you.

The foolish man built his house upon the sand and the rains came down and the floods came up... Glad they were nice to you. They are a poorly researched, mean spirited cult who worshipped a man and paid the price. They turned a blind eye to assaults of all kinds, theft, adultery, abuse of children and they separated families. This went on for decades, heck half a century plus. But I am glad they were nice to you.

For those who were told by a certain leader that they should follow him blindly: Facebook

It's been a year or more since last posting, I don't visit here very often. I hope everyone is well. I came looking around for news about TWI, I guess they are laying very low and not doing the crazy crap they used to when Weirwille and Martindale where running things. I'm pretty much over my whole cult experience. I'm still in the same apartment, with the same cat. Haven't drank alcohol in 5 years and that is going great. I'm on ozempic and jardiance which has helped me get down to a 5.5 A1C and lose 50 lbs. I hope everyone is doing well. Seth

And where the eff did they get "more than 900 people" to sign up as Way Ambassadors? Or is it just that they have 900 actual "members" and declared that wherever they are they are "ambassadors of TWI"? A mere technicality to be able to claim they have 900 ambassadors.

Almost thou persuadest me to be an atheist

WW kind of sideswiped a theory I've been working under for the past few years. I've brought it up before but it bears repeating. I have a suspicion (not enough evidence to call it a theory) that VPW was an unbeliever at heart. In tribute to Mike's thesis about how Wierwille hid great truths in plain sight and we all missed it: He declared himself to be all but atheist after studying the Bible. He no longer believed the words Holy or Bible on the cover (which is grammatically and rhetorically stupid, but you get his point). Being educated about the Bible, its history and authorship caused him to all but lose his faith. He said so! What if he never regained it? Bear with me: what if, from that moment forward, it was never about getting God and His Word right, but getting while the getting was good? He got money. He got adoration, He got fame (relative to most of us). He got attention. He got sex. He got power. How much of what he did makes more sense if he didn't believe a word of it but knew how to manipulate people to get what he wanted from them? Every time he discovered a niche, he exploited it. "This book is not some kind of Johnny come lately idea just to be iconoclastic..." [if someone has the correct wording, please let me know. I'll be happy to fix]. Oh it WASN'T? Because it was so shoddy I would think that you were selling a title rather than a book. You have a doctorate. You know how to present and defend a thesis (stop laughing, you in the back row. @#$%ing Snowball Pete). But he was an unbeliever. He KNEW the scholarship about the Bible that people like Bart Ehrman and Dan McClellan are popularizing today. He knew and he stopped believing. And THAT is when the bulls hit started. The funny thing is, it doesn't negate anything he taught. Just his motives. If McClellan and Ehrman are right, the first Christians really weren't Trinitarians. They weren't what Wierwille espoused either, though some were. Jehovah's Witnesses actually got it right, if McClellan and Ehrman are correct. But even that conclusion presupposes a unified message from the New Testament writers. And they weren't unified. Here's the problem Wierwille exposed that a lot of Christianity still gets wrong. There WAS NO FIRST CENTURY CHURCH. There were first century churches. Tons of them. And they disagreed with each other about EVERYTHING. Another topic for another time. Bottom line, I'm increasingly coming to believe that Wierwille's rise and ministry can best be explained by the hypothesis that he was an unbeliever from the moment before he became relevant.

For those of you asking. The Way is no longer supporting "tithing", in their STS they talk about "GIVE" and in the last fellowship I participated I was encourage to give freely. So they are not longer asking for 15% even for graduates of the advanced class ( I was) The Way has changed in the recent years? For sure, ¿ real changes? Not at all. TWI is bringing back the "good old years", uploading VPW teachings on their Youtube Channel, offering basically the same content. And hiding some of their core teachings in order to look more appealing to a younger crowd. Good people in TWI? For sure, you can find good people everywhere. You'll receive a lot of love in the beginning (Love-bombing uhh) ; as long as you don't commit to the ministry, they won't ask much of you. When you become deeply involved with TWI, the hell and abuse begin. And even though LCM's abusive tactics are no longer as prevalent, the emotional and psychological manipulation persists. I left TWI a little over two years ago. If you have any question about current TWI, just ask. Have a good day!

Glad you had a good experience Joyful. For many of us here, it would take a lot more than people being friendly and joyful to overcome the darkness the organization embraced for many years. If you go to ROA 2025, let us know what you think.

No, thanks.

I remember, back in the day, there was a twig leaders' syllabus that outlined acceptable behavior at large events, such as limb meetings, branch meetings and so forth. One of the admonitions listed was to "refrain from picking your own seat." My question is this: Are there currently any circumstances under which it's acceptable to pick your seat? Whose seat should you pick instead? (Yes, thank you, I've been told I'm a twisted individual.)

Freedom, a new life, a new perspective about God and the Bible An opportunity to love all people, to serve from something as basic as a warm greeting in the morning to saying thank you and please, not being a false servant in a group only to become a leader. A wonderful chance to get closer to my family, that family from which I distanced myself because they did not participate in the ministry.

TWI has changed a little bit during the recent years. But their change its only towards recover the "good old days" of VPW and PRE-LCM. VPW is still the main figure and the functioning of the organization and psychological abuse towards people persists. They're not willing to apologize to people; they only ask them to forgive and move forward "in love" . It's sad, but they demand greater maturity from the "average" believer than they do from the leader. Forgiving someone does not immediately mean restoring the relationship or psychological healing.

Thanks For the Letters Charlene, I'm new in the Forum though I lurked for years. And I left the Way 2 years ago.

????????

Oh, they're full of it, alright.

For many people, recovery is an on-going process. Think in terms of something like weight loss. You don't reach your target weight and suddenly abandon the effort. I think there's a bit of a parallel in the comparison, but maybe that's just me.

RIP Todd.

Like so many other "lessons" propounded by TWI, 4 crucified was meaningless drivel. If one hasn't learned to treat their fellow man with the respect and equity with which they, themselves, would yearn to be treated, they have leaned nothing at all. You can learn to ride a bike, put it away for 50 years, and climb right back on after all that time, still possessing the ability to ride a bike. Not so with interpersonal relationships. There is no end point. Every day is another chance to do better than you did the day before. This concept of becoming a better human being is lost to TWI's endless pursuit of pedantic excellence.

Classic John Lodge tune.

I understand how you could come to that conclusion and there is a forum in doctrinal. My main comment is, why should we believe or trust anything VPW said? Please don't allow his words to continue to have any say over your current life. I am thankful for all of us who have found freedom outside of TWI.

I don't know about TWI being Christian Nationalist, but here's my take. A thing about TWI was that mostly they simply didn't regard others as having a valid viewpoint. Our way or the highway. So little regard for others that they didn't even notice them. There was a big oval table in the auditorium. Inlaid countries of the world. Lovely. Where was New Zealand? And what other countries were missing? Other countries have different cultural traditions, including Christian traditions. But no. You will do it our way. Even if it was culturally offensive or ineffective. Disclaimer on this : in Christian Etiquette, Mrs Allen taught how Americans should eat, how to handle a knife and fork, etc. She made the point that this was American etiquette and urged people from other countries to follow their style of eating. Good - because in my countries, eating American-style is poor manners and only used by children learning to eat properly!! Might be used casually but never in "polite society." I have lived in two other countries for very long periods and visited many others, and I have a number of friends who have been missionaries in other countries. American ways are often viewed with suspicion. Solutions to problems can be imposed, rather than reached in consensus with locals. (As an aside: You only have to look at the world situation now to see how "solutions" are trying to be imposed without taking into account the views of others involved - but no more of this, least it be deemed "political.") But I don't know if this was just TWI, or if it was American culture generally, that thought the American way was the only way worthy of living. I doubt that any such culture would have been recognised in the middle east, where Christianity was born. It certainly isn't in line with Jesus's teachings. Certainly TWI dismissed other Christian traditions without considering the merits thereof, any spiritual help those traditions gave to others, and neither did they consider whether their own "brand" was really helpful to people from any cultural background. USA is such a huge country with so much diversity. One size does not fit all. Well. That's a cult for you.

twi is still selling "The Outreach Strategies of Jesus Christ." That was lcm's baby. They're still selling it, but I don't see his name. Typical twi- remove the names, and pretend that solved EVERYTHING.

If anyone wants to read my first-hand account of being on staff at HQ and talking with John right after he was fired, it's in Undertow, Chapter 54: Clampdown. I got his permission to use his real name in my book.

This is getting obnoxious

When we were in our teens, WordWolf once had a bunch of notes from which I used to study, and one of them was "Things in Which Christians Are to Abound," or something close to that. The list was believing, the Word, knowledge, diligence, love and grace. It was drawn from II Corinthians 8:7. It took me years to realize what II Corinthians 8 was doing. To really grasp it, you HAVE to let go of the tithe. Only then does the section make sense. A group of Christians was exceedingly generous to Paul, and he was using that group as an example to the Corinthians for how to approach giving. Their gift was both generous and entirely voluntary. The percentage was not discussed. And then v. 7 makes total sense. As you abound in one thing, abound in the other. A standard is being set. As you about in A, abound in F. As you abound in B, abound in F. As you abound in C, abound in F. It's not just a list of things in which we are to abound. It is a standard that is supposed to underscore our motivation to give. You call yourself a Christian who believes? Give accordingly! You call yourself a speaker of the Word? Give accordingly! You call yourself knowledgeable of the Word? GIve accordingly. You call yourself committed to the spread of the Word? Give accordingly. You say you love? Give accordingly. Our giving, according to the Bible, is to be motivated by these attributes. Not a percentage. A reflection of your commitment, of your dedication, of your seriousness about this whole Christian thing. The tithe is not a minimum or a maximum. It's not even a reference point. Abraham tithed ONE TIME, best as we can tell from scripture. No one told him to do it. No one asked him to do it. He wasn't setting a pattern. If he was, the pattern was this: YOU choose when to give. YOU choose who receives it. YOU choose how much. There is no place in scripture where ALL believers are instructed to tithe. It is simply NOT the big deal churches make it out to be. I've long forgotten my deep dive into tithing. But I do remember this much: believers should give, and give generously. NO ONE defines "generously" but you. Just don't be a hypocrite about it. When something's important to you, you invest in it.

Sadly, there is quite a lengthy list of posters who will never post here or anywhere else again. Missed, but not forgotten. Life can be rather cruel at times. Enjoy life while you still can and celebrate each new day.

Yeah. For some reason I didn't notice the time stamp. It's a Wonder-Stevie Kay (mid to late 1970s) Her voice reminds me a lot of Joan Baez. Probably the fast vibrato.

I'm not disputing that. I'm just saying this is not the place to discuss it.

Is it human nature to expect a glove to fit every hand that arises? Words and their definitions are problematic, aren't they? Words like transcendent, numinous, sublime, even spiritual. They are pretty much all we got and religion can't claim exclusive rights to them. Transcendence has several meanings, only one of them religious. Numinous can mean awe-inspiring. Kant has a concept of the Sublime. Christopher Hitchens uses these words to make the point that you need to go beyond religion in order to fully appreciate reality, not just to understand it rationally but also to enjoy it, to be dazzled by its beauty and order, to exalt in its wonder. When Hitchens talks about "the transcendent and numinous," he's not referring to anything supernatural. He's also not advocating any type of worship or debasement. He's referring to an appreciation for the amazing insights and workings of the natural order as well as an appreciation for the greater aspects of the human experience. He's trying to make the case that religion doesn't own these words or concepts. He's also attempting to address the claim that science reduces everything to chemical impulses and nihilism. His position is that atheists are capable of having the exact same types of experiences as believers, and none of them require beleef in anything supernatural or anything unsupported by the evidence. He's saying that atheists are just as capable of feeling self-transcending love or connection to something greater than oneself or true awe. One doesn't need superstition to take part in any of these amazing human experiences. If you reject the notion that there exists a supernatural dimension, then all religious and spiritual experiences can be understood as purely, physical phenomena. Therefore, when someone experiences a moment of self-transcending love that feels all-encompassing or when someone goes into a desert and fasts for 40 days and 40 nights or when someone takes a pilgrimage to feel a connection to the divine or when someone learns about the natural order and feels an incredible connection to the universe or when someone experiences a piece of art that moves them deeply and inexplicably to feel as if they're part of something larger than themselves, all of these things can be understood as meaningful subjective experiences in a physical, natural universe with no supernatural or spiritual dimensions. It's difficult to illustrate how meaningful and impactful these experiences are without using language that is typically reserved for usage in explaining religious experiences. After all, people like Einstein and Spinoza weren't necessarily religious, but they definitely had beliefs that could be called spiritual. Not spiritual in the sense that it spoke of a spiritual dimension, but spiritual as in an incredible admiration for the workings of the natural order, the range of human experience, and the mysteries of the universe. One can reject the supernatural and absolutely still have a transcendent experience. Here are the Four Horseman talking about the transcendent and numinous. https://youtu.be/9DKhc1pcDFM?si=n2dsCndVCJviEYEn And here's Sam Harris on his use of the word spiritual. https://youtu.be/zLKNvBdUtZY?si=utS8kRZtcr7AX8Ka

The are NO SUCH THING as devil spirits. You learned about them while in twi and this explains why you thought of one when LCM looked at you with all the pride and evil that were behind those eyes of his. Being involved with the other ministries you've mentioned only cemented your belief in demons because they are steeped in teaching about them and falsely claiming to rebuke them. Christianity is a fear-based doctrine that ministries/religions feed off of and become rich from because of the hold this doctrine has on keeping people in line. If you want to be free of having to cope with such a mythical being as an evil spirit, start deconstructing from what the bible teaches about them. Begin with the whole concept of the fall of Lucifer and then go straight to the most inane story of the serpent with Adam and Eve in the garden whereby all mankind supposedly inherited an evil and sinful nature and Satan became the god of this world. I sincerely hope you do.

Oops! This is the first thing that will get you in hot water. Make that boiling water. The Word takes precedence over everything... not God, not Christ, not family, not your friends. "You have no friends when it comes to The Word." (VPW). They don't come right out and say it, but, in essence, they worship The Word. "You have to put The Word above everything else." "Having done all, you just stand on The Word and don't let anyone budge you." (VPW). Oh, I could go on and on about how they exalt The Word (at, least, their interpretation of it) above all else, but I probably shouldn't, I have to go shopping for dental floss today..

In my opinion, The Way is not a reformation of the church, first century or otherwise. It's the remnants of a devious MLM scam, built on lies and plagiarism. I'm not bitter, just stating the factual reality. Not only is the vast majority of the material content plagiarized, it's filled with inaccurate assertions, such as "the four crucified", the so-called "law of believing", roosters that crowed differently 2,000 years ago, special bar mitzvas for illegitimate boys, inerrancy of scripture, bogus tithing requirements and on and on and on. The Way is and was a lot of things. A reformation of the church is not one of them.

Sorry to hear that... well, we know now there's abundant life outside of TWI. Thank you for posting and please continue!

Wierwille, Martindale, Bickle, and… Kat Kerr. That’s a hand never tired of the glove.

I wonder if they still throw darts at a map to make assignments. They're gonna need a pretty big map, I suppose.

Hmmmm. You might be on to something.

Good for you.Thanks to this ole sight and lots of great people,I feel it would be a step backard into their religion.

Don't mind me, I'm a cynical old fart. Part of this reminds me of my own early experiences, all those years ago. Everyone seemed so happy, joyful, "We sure do love you" and all that jazz. Different from mainstream churches. Love bombing at its best. Somehow, I don't see it ending well. Your mileage may vary.

Wierwille took all these definitions, line by line and word for word, from another source. (Leonard, perhaps?) If you try to put this stuff into practice, one of three things is going to happen. One: You'll delude yourself into believing they actually work. Two: You'll feel ashamed and embarrassed you're the only one who doesn't quite "get it". Three: You'll come to the conclusion it was all a bunch of nonsense all along.

I like Waysider's comment about recovery being an on-going process. I has been for me. While I was writing Undertow, soooo many years after my direct expereinces in TWI, I was still coming to realizations. While the Way organization may be a shadow of its former self, as Wordwolf described it, I think it appears that way because the number of active followers is lower than in its heyday of the 1980s, for instance. Since Undertow came out, I've gotten numerous emails from children and grandchildren of my former Way peers. These descendents read Undertow and are surprised to see how abuse they suffered actually began with VPW himself. Many of my former peers won't admit that, since they still believe he was the man of God. It's sick. So abuse in one form or another has filtered down in their lives from their parents giving them warped doctrines and confusing messages, such as "you're sick because you don't believe strongly enough." The fallout from the "early days in TWI" has domino effects that take time and education to rectify. The thousands of posts here on GSC are evidence of that.

What Do You Know About Cults? What is a cult? “An ideological organization held together by charismatic relationships and demanding total commitment.” ~ Benjamin Zablocki, PhD, “Cults: Theory and Treatment Issues.” http://www.icsahome.com/articles/cultspsymanipsociety-langone How do cults recruit? Promises and pressure What are some warning signs? Charismatic, authoritarian, self-proclaimed leader with no check on power Deceptive recruiting (often sincere) Critical inquiry viewed as “persecution” Organized psychological manipulation Emotional, sexual, and financial exploitation Inner circle of loyal followers with secret beliefs/behavior No meaningful economic transparency How do cults undermine freedom? Demand loyalty to cult leader/ideology Disallow freedom of religion (theirs is the only right one) Intimidate to prevent free thought Control personal goals Destabilize freedom of association How can we respond to recruiters? ABCD A - Always research group B - Be firm when refusing recruitment C - Challenge appealing promises D - Don’t tolerate deception, even from a friend Warning: An imbalance of power is an opportunity for abuse. Undertow: My Escape from the Fundamentalism and Cult Control of The Way International By Charlene L. Edge. Memoir. Paperback and eBook at major booksellers & indie bookstores “… A frank, in-depth account of one woman’s struggles in a controlling organization.” — Kirkus Reviews Gold medal winner - Florida Authors and Publishers Association, 2017 On Book Riot’s list of “100 Must-Read Books About Life in Cults and Oppressive Religious Sects” What it’s about: After a family tragedy struck, teenaged Charlene rejected Catholicism, family, and friends to join what became one of the largest fundamentalist cults in America: The Way International led by Victor Paul Wierwille. After promotion to the inner circle of biblical researchers, Charlene discovered secrets: Wierwille’s plagiarism, misuse of Scripture, and sex abuse. Amid chaos at The Way’s headquarters, Charlene escaped. Why Undertow matters: Each year about 50,000 to 100,000 people enter or leave high-control groups called “cults” (data: The International Cultic Studies Association). Movies like Going Clear and The Path have captured the nation’s attention. Undertow is a personal story about cult recruitment and fear-based manipulation by an authoritarian, charismatic leader. The fundamentalist mindset, espousing certainty about God and the meaning of the Bible, causes untold divisions in families and communities. Undertow shows this pain from an insider’s perspective and that healing is possible. A taste of Undertow: “I gulped down Doug’s words without doing any critical thinking, not pressing him to prove what he said. He was so sincere that I clung to his assertions, like ‘believing equals receiving,’ as if they were heaven-sent.” CHARLENE L. EDGE spent 17 years in The Way (1970–1987). Later she earned a B.A. in English from Rollins College and worked for more than a decade as writer in the software industry. She is a published poet and essayist and a member of the Florida Writers Association, the Authors Guild, and the International Cultic Studies Association. She lives in Florida with her husband, Dr. Hoyt L. Edge. She blogs at: http://charleneedge.com

Was in church on Sunday. Our sermon series is about our identity as Christians. The curate, Ben, gave a talk was about being salt and light. Little bit different idea of "salt" but completely acceptable. Then he turned to a discussion of "light" and hiding candlesticks under bowls, cities on hills, etc - y'all know the passage. And then he said: "You are all lightbearers. Bearers of the light!" Lightbearers!!! Not a word commonly used by people. Never encountered it in ordinary conversation. Maybe the Olympics talks about that, but the expression is usually "torch bearer." I quite enjoyed Lightbearers apart from the hitchhiking. A nice, enjoyable, two week release from the stifling prison and rigid discipline of being at HQ. Stayed with, met, hung out with, some really nice people. Witnessed to some nice people - and some less nice ones. Overall, no regrets. I could even say, I have happy memories. Got back after one such expedition to have the whole group of us bollocksed for not being good enough. We deserved being kicked out, etc, etc due to our lack of believing. (Nothing about HQ's own lack of preparation or knowledge of the area!!) Our punishment: to be sent out again a month or so later, with the admonition that those who didn't get a class together needn't bother coming back as they would be thrown out anyway. No pressure, then. (All teams succeeded this time, in a different city.) Lightbearers! Ben, if you knew what you'd evoked, brought back, you'd've found a different word! But I'm willing to reclaim it and use it so that the ugly connotations get expunged.

We had a Political forum on the GSC, and it almost shut down the entire site. It took many times more moderation than all the rest of the board put together. Pawtucket was about to shut down the entire GSC out of frustration, but elected to keep everything else and just jettison the politics- which is unnecessary anyway. When 9-11 happened, a lot of people wanted to talk about it. That's how the politics board started, a board on 9-11, that expanded. But discussions got ugly, and posters didn't limit themselves to just mean posts in that board. Some followed other posters around and attacked them on threads that have nothing to do with politics, And so on. It made for a toxic environment. So, someone else agreed to moderate a purely political forum, and Paw jettisoned the one here. As I understand it, the other one lasted a few months, then fizzled out. I'm not sure why because I didn't follow it. So, the rule at the GSC is, NO POLITICS.

Thanks, Allan. The current administration will be pleased. Really, it interprets itself, whatever one calls it.

Well, it's been over 50 years since I first heard these things, but as I recall, it was covered in what we used to call the "13th" session of PFAL. After the 12th session, in which students *manifested*, there was a separate session on the unforgivable sin. Supposedly, this involved the seed of Satan being irreversibly instilled into people. Born again of the wrong seed, as it were. It was supposed to be the polar opposite of the new birth, and quite different from possession, which could be exorcised. There was lots of talk about many of the people of great influence being "seed boys", and, therefore, irredeemable.(prominent scientists, actors, musicians, world leaders and so forth) Of course, it freaked out lots of people and negated the euphoria of session 12. That's probably why it was eliminated and not revisited until it resurfaced in the Advanced Class teachings. I think it might be included somewhere in the original PFAL collaterals. edit: You can't really accept it as being possible without first believing in "once saved, always saved" because of the element of permanence. It's hard to look back at some of this stuff and not laugh at what a chump I must have been.

Just a little tune to sing to the kiddos in your life.

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