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Was in church on Sunday. Our sermon series is about our identity as Christians. The curate, Ben, gave a talk was about being salt and light. Little bit different idea of "salt" but completely acceptable. Then he turned to a discussion of "light" and hiding candlesticks under bowls, cities on hills, etc - y'all know the passage. And then he said: "You are all lightbearers. Bearers of the light!" Lightbearers!!! Not a word commonly used by people. Never encountered it in ordinary conversation. Maybe the Olympics talks about that, but the expression is usually "torch bearer." I quite enjoyed Lightbearers apart from the hitchhiking. A nice, enjoyable, two week release from the stifling prison and rigid discipline of being at HQ. Stayed with, met, hung out with, some really nice people. Witnessed to some nice people - and some less nice ones. Overall, no regrets. I could even say, I have happy memories. Got back after one such expedition to have the whole group of us bollocksed for not being good enough. We deserved being kicked out, etc, etc due to our lack of believing. (Nothing about HQ's own lack of preparation or knowledge of the area!!) Our punishment: to be sent out again a month or so later, with the admonition that those who didn't get a class together needn't bother coming back as they would be thrown out anyway. No pressure, then. (All teams succeeded this time, in a different city.) Lightbearers! Ben, if you knew what you'd evoked, brought back, you'd've found a different word! But I'm willing to reclaim it and use it so that the ugly connotations get expunged.

We had a Political forum on the GSC, and it almost shut down the entire site. It took many times more moderation than all the rest of the board put together. Pawtucket was about to shut down the entire GSC out of frustration, but elected to keep everything else and just jettison the politics- which is unnecessary anyway. When 9-11 happened, a lot of people wanted to talk about it. That's how the politics board started, a board on 9-11, that expanded. But discussions got ugly, and posters didn't limit themselves to just mean posts in that board. Some followed other posters around and attacked them on threads that have nothing to do with politics, And so on. It made for a toxic environment. So, someone else agreed to moderate a purely political forum, and Paw jettisoned the one here. As I understand it, the other one lasted a few months, then fizzled out. I'm not sure why because I didn't follow it. So, the rule at the GSC is, NO POLITICS.

UK maps have Gulf of Mexico (Gulf of America). If there's no good reason to change a name of centuries, why bother? Ah, says an orangeman, there is good reason. My ego! TBH if it were called Gulf of THE Americas, that would be understandable and maybe acceptable. The area is bounded by the continent of North America and the isthmus of Central America; and South America forms a southern boundary though arguably not exactly on the gult. The lengths of the Mexican border and the north American border appear to be about the same. But no. The orangeman thinks America means the whole of the continent of North America (sorry, Canadians). And sharing with other parts of "America" (ie, Central and South) just isn't in the playbook. It's likely the rest of the world with stick with Gulf of Mexico and the name will revert back in a few years' time.

Thanks, Allan. The current administration will be pleased. Really, it interprets itself, whatever one calls it.

I totally forgot this was here. I think there are a bunch of things that need to be revisited in light of dwindling participation. I want to find some way to preserve our testimonies and reconsiderations of what The Way taught. No solid answers here. We'll figure something out.

For anyone considering getting involved with The Way, or if you are and you're having doubts about the group, consider this. It is information you may not have already: The current Way organization still lauds the corrupt VPW as their founding "man of God?" About the Founder - Dr. Victor Paul Wierwille That's enough for me to categorize the current organization as corrupt. Its roots in Wierwille are rotten. Their current "tree" cannot be any good no matter how "nice" any followers might be. Many of us had first-hand experience with the authoritarian, narcissistic, predatory, abusive plagiarist named Victor Paul Wierwille. We know that he stole most of his teachings that are found on tapes and in his books. Many of those are still used today, or tweaked, or slanted this way or that. We know the women he seduced and raped and silenced. We know the emotional abuse he inflicted on anyone who questioned him. We now understand how cults work and how they make extensive efforts to hide their corrupt histories like the one The Way has and cannot escape. We know that no matter how many fresh coats of paint you slather over filth, the filth is still underneath. To any followers of this organization: ask where the money goes. Ask where the power lies. Ask what happens if you leave the group. Ask what happens if you disagree with the ideology. Think for yourself.

Just a little tune to sing to the kiddos in your life.

More like, MISadventure with us. Don't stay too long, folks.

I keep having various thoughts for threads and not following through because the time investment that would be involved is prohibitive. But I recognize that I have made many statements and staked out many positions over the years that warrant revisiting. In no particular order (and fully recognizing that any of these could be a thread on its own), some thoughts: * I'm not confident the historical Jesus ever existed. I know it's the position of mainstream scholarship, but I find their arguments unconvincing on balance. * The BEST evidence for Jesus existing as a human being is the unresolvable conflict between the Nativity narratives in Matthew and Luke. If you read Matthew, you walk away believing Joseph and Mary lived in Bethlehem and were targeted as late as two years after Jesus was born. They flee to Egypt and, after learning Herod is dead, decide to return home, fully intending to return to Judea. But an angel warns Joseph not to go there. Only then, after all this, does the family settle in Nazareth. In Luke, however, Joseph and Mary already live in Nazareth. An absurd plot contrivance puts them in Bethlehem for the birth of Jesus, and 40 days later they are in Jerusalem for the purification rites under the law (Luke 2:22). When they're done with that whole ritual, they RETURN to Nazareth. So how does this mean Jesus existed? Well, on its own, it does not. But it means that the earliest followers of Christianity understood Jesus to be from Nazareth, and there had to be some alternative explanation to have him born in Bethlehem. This makes little sense unless the belief that Jesus was from Nazareth was so strong that it could not be overcome, which makes the most sense if he is not a made-up character. They could make up the circumstances of his birth (and they clearly did. The two accounts have nothing in common except the three main human characters and the setting. If Jesus never existed, the character they made up would have been Jesus of Bethlehem, not Jesus of Nazareth. * The best evidence AGAINST Jesus existing if Paul's insistence that he did not learn the gospel from the apostles. It's just not plausible, even if you take revelation into account (which is not required to answer the "did he exist" question), that Paul had a chance to talk to the followers of Jesus' earthly ministry and did not recognize them as an authority on what the Lord taught. I'm sorry, what? Paul appears completely unaware of the betrayal of Judas, and his epistles never quote Jesus. He does not mention the empty tomb at all, and he never refers to Jesus being executed by the Romans at the behest of the Jews. He never refers to the sham trial or the ascension, and he never refers to Jesus "second coming" or "return," but rather of his "presence." I think the simplest explanation for Peter never saying "listen to me, not Paul. Paul didn't even KNOW him," is that Peter didn't know him either. The story of Jesus' sacrifice came first and it took place "in the heavenlies." He is executed not by Romans but by "the princes of this world," a clear spiritual, not human, reference. * I used to be quite certain that the Bible teaches God is all-knowing (past, present and future). Made a pretty strong case for it, in fact, based on scripture. But I no longer believe the Bible is consistent on the matter. The reason scripture appears to contradict itself is self-evident: It DOES contradict itself. God didn't test Abraham to teach Abraham a lesson. He tested Abraham because he genuinely did not know what Abraham would do. Ditto Job. The notion that the Bible is CONSISTENT on any matter is a presupposition, Its authors (plural) were all over the map on countless issues, including the limits of his knowledge and power. * The Bible is not monotheistic. Wanna know why Yahweh is a jealous god? Because there ARE other gods. Not "false" gods. Competing gods. And he didn't like competition, no no no. Maybe more later.

I am reminded of something Mike once said in defense of victor teaching Julius Erving a thing or two about a thing or two: Is it bragging to say you can jump over a barn, if in fact you CAN jump over a barn? Bragging or not, no one can jump over a barn, Mike.

"...draw your own conclusions." Well, I hope it will explain why both Jesus and Paul believed the end time would come within their lifetime and when it didn't, Peter had to give an explanation to keep the hope going - "But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." Where is there any evidence of this being true in scripture other than Peter declaring it? My conclusion thus far is that the hope of Christ's return and all the great stuff that is promised to come afterwards is a pipe dream.

The word "betrayed" there just means "handed over" and by itself does not carry the connotation of an ally becoming a turncoat. Also note the Paul calls it the Lord's Supper and not the Last Supper. Paul says he got this narrative from the Lord, not from Jesus' disciples [1. Yeah, right, if it's remotely historical, and 2. Paul NEVER refers to Jesus as having disciples]. I should have said Paul never quotes Jesus' teachings, since according to Paul, EVERYTHING he taught was quoting Jesus. In any event, it appears more likely that the gosoels got the last supper from Paul, not the other way around. Paul never mentions who was present for this meal. Paul never blames the Jews* or the Romans for Jesus' execution [the verse in I Thessalonians 2 is interpolated, whole other discussion]. So those are some related thoughts. Others: * I am increasingly of the belief that VPW didn't believe what he taught. Any of it. * Jupiter is Zeus. Neptune is Poseidon. Mercury is Hermes. Yahweh is Baal.

How many would want to follow along with such a group? How many would want to follow along with any other such group that exercises such apparent "undue influence" which is inherently deceptive? Is this simply an example and an instance of something inherent in humanity and/or human nature because "we" (humans/humanity) crave something in particular that this deluded NPD "minister" promised? Is this an instance of... I propose answers to these questions may be alluded to, if not explicitly articulated in the writings of Steven Hassan, who has researched the phenomenon for nearly 50 years? I don't know. But I wonder about it a lot. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/contributors/steven-a-hassan-phd Hassan's books include: Freedom of Mind Combating Cult Control Releasing the Bonds The Bite Model THE BITE MODEL OF AUTHORITARIAN CONTROL: UNDUE INFLUENCE, THOUGHT REFORM, BRAINWASHING, MIND CONTROL, TRAFFICKING AND THE LAW Hassan also wrote a book explaining cult influence in a particular political figure in America today The common thread in all of his writing is undue influence. He's not anti-religion. He's not inherently political. But he does have insight related to understanding what Victor Wierwille tapped into in order to capture or corral tens of thousands of us to follow his teaching. What I suspect these Way Corps letters can provide to us now in retrospect is how Victor's emotional condition when he wrote those letters bely his underlying psychological vulnerability was perhaps one key to enable many of us to escape what we had not yet recognized as Victor's undue influence over us.

Thanks, Charlene. This got me thinking about those very early letters to his nascent ekklesia. They are short letters begging for money. The gaslighting and manipulation are subtle, the tone is almost sweet in desperation, written by a monster fully confident in his disguise to a supply still unaware of the hellscape they’ve entered. The Corps letters are full of rage and word salad, written by an NPD exposed for what he is, furious that his supply is leaving. Furious at the truth. The manipulation and gaslighting are obvious and the tone is angry and mean and desperate. All these letters read together chronologically show the arc of a relationship between an NPD and his supply.

The offer of PDFs of VPW's letters to Way Corps is good until April 30, 2025 at 5 pm. Cheers!

For more from me, visit me on Blogspot. My posts there are FREE. My posts on my own website are FREE also. Charlene Lamy Edge Speaks about The Way International My website is: https://charleneedge.com

We might be inching too far out on political thin ice. I'm just an observer, not a moderator.

You could try reading some of the articles on their website. That's if you can stomach the jargon.

I think we should call it the Gulf of Clem. No particular reason. I just think it sounds cool. My granddaughter Clara Belle (That's short for Helen) said "Golly, Grandpa Waysider, that's a groovy idea.") These young 'uns are pretty hip, anymore.

You can say that again.

I'll post it in a couple other places here today.

I'm not posting from inside the US, which is why I expect I was asked. In my search, it's clearly "Gulf of Mexico." When I do a search specifically for "Gulf of America", I get the exact same image, which includes the name "Gulf of Mexico" right on the map, and the description says "Gulf of Mexico." Here's what Google said on the subject- Gulf of America name change in the U.S. — what you’ll see in Maps

I got curious and searched for my own address. Along with the map and a shocking street view photo, My search prompted THIS happy little tune. Ahh, the memories.

From Canada: The above map was not a google map. The following is (love the brackets!) https://www.google.com/search?q=google+maps+gulf+of+mexico&client=firefox-b-d&sca_esv=a38431949a6ac76a&sxsrf=AHTn8zqRmiJhYlCGrPV_nNpJCJ3Am5j8lw%3A1739308929712&ei=gb-rZ6aDK86F0PEP_qWE0AM&ved=0ahUKEwjmx6PXxryLAxXOAjQIHf4SAToQ4dUDCBA&uact=5&oq=google+maps+gulf+of+mexico&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiGmdvb2dsZSBtYXBzIGd1bGYgb2YgbWV4aWNvMgQQABgDMgQQABgDMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgsQABiABBiGAxiKBTILEAAYgAQYhgMYigUyCxAAGIAEGIYDGIoFMgUQABjvBTIIEAAYgAQYogRIjyBQ4AdYiR5wAXgBkAEAmAGuAaAB4guqAQM1Ljm4AQPIAQD4AQGYAg-gAvoNwgIKEAAYsAMY1gQYR8ICDRAAGLADGNYEGEcYyQPCAg4QABiABBiwAxiSAxiKBcICCxAAGIAEGJECGIoFwgIFEAAYgATCAggQABiiBBiJBZgDAIgGAZAGCpIHBDIuMTOgB7JV&sclient=gws-wiz-serp

I looked at 5 and they all had Gulf of Mexico https://www.mapsofworld.com/north-america/

https://www.cultfacts.com/cults/the-way-international First 2 paragraphs are much as twi might describe itself. Third paragraph: They also adopted a hierarchical educational structure which many say is used to exercise excessive control over its members. "The Foundational Class on Power for Abundant Living," serves as an entry point into a system that encourages participants to climb a ladder of increasing commitment and involvement, a structure often compared to pyramid schemes [not unlike Scientology]. Members who commit to the Way have reported severe sleep deprivation, isolation from families, and other forms of control from church leaders, which have led them to drop out of school, quit taking medicine, or prepare for a prophesized nuclear holocaust. Some of their worst abuses started to come to light after former members launched lawsuits against the organization. In addition to concerns about psychological manipulation and financial control, former members testified about a widespread coordination of up to fifty leaders[aka conspiracy] to assist in and coverup the sexual abuse of female members at the hands of the presidents and high-ranking leaders. Court documents and media sources reported that girls as young as thirteen are shown pornography and trained in how to provide sexual gratification while being taught that a woman's purpose is to give sexual pleasure to men. Victims revealed how leaders used the guilt of disobeying God and fears of death to coerce them into submission. Meanwhile other trusted leaders told them how privileged they were to be able to satisfy such great men of God. At it's peak, The Way was considered the second largest cult in America, with up to 40,000 members. While membership declined significantly in the 1990s, the organization still exists today, remaining curiously quiet about their abusive history.

Trigger words, phrases, situations. Once you learn to recognize them, they get easier to deal with.

Must have been when he wasn't busy inventing the hook shot.

Well... other than the "I'm right and they're wrong" aspect of your post I figure there could be some reasonable insight to looking at Jesus as fulfillment of OT law. I totally reject the paradigm of black/white, wrong/right interpretations of scripture. WE (humans/humanity) IMO are far too limited to be able to clearly define (most) interpretations of scripture as such. Stay curious and be willing to consider new ways to look at them. Just sayin'.

Hey Nathan that sparked an idea about the policies for PFAL. As a class coordinator you were not to answer questions directly, but defer them to a Q and A session at the end of the class. This policy was highlighted to the new students from day one. With all of the mental acrobatics that the new student is taken through in the class, the net effect of this policy is like Nathan is observing in the U of L Romans class to not answer questions at all directly and to defer the answering of questions to the class coordinator. In all of the years of running classes and all the classes I ran I never once saw this policy result in anything other than people forgetting about their questions or them getting ignored. Peer pressure for Corps would prevent escalating any questionable areas where legit questions arose. How many of you ever experienced a last session of the class where any questions of substance were asked or answered? None for me. I postulate that this is a clear example of brainwashing techniques.

When I was in college- and for a few years after- I was involved with a SERVICE fraternity. Instead of a house and drinking games, there were service projects and showing up to work on things. It can be argued that it looked good on a resumè, that it provided free leadership training, and so on, so that it was useful to the member. (In fact, I argued that Christians might find it useful to show up and get some of the experience.) Either way, there was a lot of community service and work with other people. In fact, some people contacted us to work with them every year because we knew what we were doing. I've handled phones for PBS telethons, marshalled walkathons, worked on rebuilding a building, worked on Earth Day and Comic Relief (both in Manhattan, both in the same year), and other service projects. Yes, it's amazing how the skills are transferable. I remember once showing up at an assigned spot for a walkathon. We got to the corner before the officials assigned to the corner. I looked at the materials, and at my fraternity brothers, and mumbled something as I organized who was working with what. A few minutes after we arrived, the official arrived, saw the corner all ready, and left us to run it. They gave us some quick instructions, announcements to make at that spot, and handed me a bullhorn before going to the next corner- which was completely disorganized. (Looking back, I'm amazed they figured out who to hand the bullhorn to when we were all dressed similarly.) All of that being said, I kept that as college life and social life. Around that time, NY (state and city) had, in effect, been kicked out by lcm. That's when he'd demanded an oath of loyalty to himself PERSONALLY to follow him BLINDLY and without qualification (in both meanings of the word.) The entire staff of the state refused and were fired en masse. We were told they were all serving their own bellies and to ignore them, by lcm. But, we'd worked with these people and knew that was a lie, and we couldn't say the same about lcm. In fact, he was slated to show up locally once and he wussed out. So, 80% or more of the state walked en masse with the staff. Not that long into the process (a few years), one of the area coordinators started mentioning to me an idea that had been trickling down- the idea of public service, of volunteering for local events that needed help. He sounded like this was the most shocking idea he'd heard in some time. (Then again, he'd been hearing from HQ until recently, and now only from upstate for a few years, so a few new ideas were circulating.) I offered my counsel, and told him I'd been doing that for years at college and had accumulated over 100 service hours, so I had experience. (Minimum of 20 hours per semester, 2 semesters per year, 4-5 years at the time...) He gave me a look like I'd just claimed to have invented the idea of public service, and never uttered a peep to me about it again, let alone asked me for practical advice. Even for ex-twi, the idea that public service outside of official channels could work has ranged, at times, between surprise, shock, and outright disbelief. Now, it's decades later, and I'd expect the idea isn't so shocking anymore.

I don't remember this phrase, but I believe it. The winced expressions of contempt were embarrassingly obvious whenever they heard about my altruistic activities. Usually, after fellowship, my wife would randomly mention some philanthropic cause with which I was involved - an effort to indict me. I was made to feel guilty, as if I should repent, be reproved and corrected, and instead of giving money to the local shelter for abused women or to the Arts, I should give that money to the fellowship. Literally. Actually. I had been involved in various philanthropic and charitable endeavors since I was a teenager, long before meeting my wife and her corps/twit family. They used it against me - evidence of my being spiritually immature and a mere babe in da werd.

First off, cool post I enjoyed the definitions and perspective. I zereod in on this point though because I think it speaks volumes both in the sense of what TWI teaches people not to do verses the right thing to do based on being righteous. TWI - they frowned (as we all know) heavily on getting involved in our communities calling that sort of involvement "designer causes" and so on. I think what you are doing is a solid way to go. Get involved! Pursue righteous causes, pursue justice - love it! Live rightly and do it in such a manner that is of true service and expresses God's love to our fellow man. TWI had us out selling classes. What better way to love our neighbor as ourself than to be involved on this level you mentioned Rocky! Thanks.

Ah, yeah. Revelation. Direct from God himself. But seriously... we all know how sneaky abuse was, in TWI. And some women know better than others. And we've all heard of the abuses that took place in major denominations, that were covered up for decades.

My friend is the safeguarding officer at a big church. There have been over the years various issues. What exactly do you do with the paedophile in your congregation? The rapist? The man who beats his wife? Especially if the victim is also a member of the same congregation! The church recognises that ALL are sinners. ALL of us have sins; some are more obvious and some are still hidden away. And so the church continues to welcome these people into the congregation. Forgiveness, yes, but wisdom too. There is a price to pay. Perhaps an abuser may not attend certain services (which the victims attend). Perhaps an abuser may only attend if someone else (a nominated person) is also there. I don't know all the rules for ordinary congregants, I only know that each case is determined on its own circumstances. And every care is taken to ensure the safety of vulnerable people, of victims. The diocese would deal with abusive clergy; there are other rules for such. Safeguarding is taken very seriously these days. Pretty much all churches have safeguarding policies which are openly available on their websites. Nominated persons are named, with contact details. Anyone who has any contact in a leadership-type capacity with children or vulnerable adults has to get a police-type clearance certificate from the Disclosure and Barring Service. (This doesn't apply just to churches.) Where is TWI's safeguarding policy? I don't see a link on their website. Anyway, it'd probably still be the foxes in charge of the henhouse. Nor does CFFM appear to have a safeguarding policy.

Annio, I really appreciate your feedback – and would like to redeem myself after I failed to limit the application of my post...I was addressing interpersonal problems. - problems people have when relating to each other...for me, that's the extent of Jay Adams' points I referenced...I did mention in that post I have broadened my perspective far beyond Adams – and I have a great appreciation for all the legitimate medical treatments, medicine, research and therapies available – something that Adams lacked...I apologize for my lack of clarity and specificity. I am sorry if I gave you the impression I was speaking to any and all problems that may come upon a person. You are right in mentioning the bigger picture of life and the ultimate priority of healing and deliverance...I totally agree with what you said so maybe I should clarify my perspective. Regarding mental health, medical professionals should be addressing the trauma that befalls a person – by any legitimate means possible – the various therapies, medications, developing technologies, continued research. ...A couple of years ago our daughter participated in a medical study using Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation (TMS) which is a noninvasive form of brain stimulation – the research is still evolving but so far the diagnostic and therapeutic potential is promising in treating a wide variety of disease states in neurology and mental health. Results for our daughter were amazing. She has down syndrome and had been diagnosed with clinical depression. To complicate matters she had become very withdrawn and didn't communicate much – it was a noticeable decline. The best we could figure out after talking to medical professionals and reading up on it – she may have been dealing with catatonia – but little is known about catatonia associated with down syndrome...But like I said the results of TMS for our daughter were amazing (the treatment was several times a week over a number of weeks). It was like we got our old daughter back. TMS seemed to have alleviated the catatonia thing and the depression is manageable. She's definitely more outgoing now judging by the feedback we get from the staff at the day hab she attends...and every night we've been watching the series Friends on HBO Max – she will often ask what or why they're doing something – this is a lot of fun and she learns more about our culture...and if you were to visit our home she just might corner you and tell you all about her cat, favorite restaurants or something she wrote on the computer.

Great posts Annio! It seems to me you have a healthy, kind and mature approach in all of this…I just wanted to share a few thoughts you brought to mind… …we humans are very complicated but imperfect social creatures…Back in the early 80s a very thoughtful TWI-clergy guy ran a Christian counseling seminar for all the Twig leaders in our area – in the seminar he referred to some of the works of Jay Adams. After that I really got into Adams’ stuff for a while – though since I left TWI and expanded my horizons in theology, counseling, philosophy and psychology I don’t always agree with some of Adams’ viewpoints – but I do think he nailed it on two things: 1. sin is always the problem and 2.interpersonal problems are usually never one-sided...the other person may have thrown the first stone - but I was quick to toss it right back at them! Because we are very complicated but imperfect social creatures sometimes it doesn’t take a whole lot for interpersonal difficulties to fester and interfere with our ability to bond with another – sometimes it just starts over some personal slight…after 45 years of marriage I can confidently say it’s a fight to the death on who’s fault it was - no, just kidding …most of the time it’s a lot of work to just sort out and admit who opened the can of worms and what particular worm has some dirt on another worm… Reconciliation is a big deal – not just with God, but also with people reconciling with people - Matthew 5: 23 & 24 even puts it ahead of worship! The kindness in your posts is the polar opposite of the hard-heartedness I remember in TWI…There was a tendency to write-off people over so many things – “he’s tripped out of the ministry” “she’s possessed” “he’s wrong-seed” "that whole group is off The Word" ...and sometimes certain leadership could be so vindictive toward someone who challenged them or criticized them - it would make you wonder if they were even Christian… …guess I’ve become a real softie in some ways…I like to believe there’s always hope – that a person can change…I think reconciliation is the final step in the forgiveness process – it repairs the bond… …I even give wierwille the benefit of a doubt. I know I am very critical of the things he’s done – and it’s important to bring such abusive, toxic and hypocritical pseudo-Christianity to light in order to warn others (per clear directives like in Matthew 7: 15-29 and II Peter 2 ) …in saying I give him the benefit of a doubt – I mean I don’t get into trying to figure out his motivation or intentions. For all I know wierwille truly believed he served God and God’s people. That doesn’t make everything okay – it makes him delusional. Since he’s passed away there’s no hope of forgiveness and reconciliation with him and his victims in this life…but who knows how God will resolve all the world’s messes in the next life…guess that’s still hope.

WW, I am not a Medical Professional, but I would have called 911. And then, I would have prayed for him!! Hello, the man obviously had some sort of problem; deal with the problem first, and then pray about it!! That's what I would have done.

Excanesta, the way I remember it is thus. Ly: Early 1986, maybe around Jan - Feb - I got a call from someone at the Way Nash, then my wife got a call, and the people were asking if and what we knew about a "book", a "paper" written by Geer. They described it as a "tell all" thing, named names, was the posthumous remarks, comments, last months of and recorded legacy of VPW, written by Geer. It had been read to the Way Corps at the Way Nash that week by Craig who had gone ballistic, literally. He was talking about how messed up everything and everyone was - they told me that he had made the statement that if it was "this bad" it was "MALPAK" time, time to hit the road and get out. It sounded a little over the edge, to us. I/we knew nothing about such a paper/book, that was the first we'd heard about it or anything like it. Assorted tapes were bootlegged out for a few months after that, as the Way's Region and Limb bosses and assorted management types were called in and met with, and the blubbering was well under way by that year's Corps week and ROA, as you may remember. I remember it somewhat - clearly - because I could understand what was happening at the Way Nash, having lived there. We spoke to people that next few months and it sounded like a hayride in a hell - paranoia, fear, constant diatribes against this person or that, every week a new person vilified for anything imaginable, then someone else lauded to the heavens for their great Stand On The Word. And nobody knew that the f they were really talking about - nothing had changed, really - the only thing that changed was how we thought. Everything done up to that point was done. Once anyone got squared up with that simple reality the future was and is the only thing left to consider. It was kindergarten Kristianity, and very difficult to get a grip on what was happening there and throughout the country as everyone suddenly - it was like the cap blew off a bottle of soda that had been shaken up for years and now WHOOOOOOSH!!!!!! and there was no going back in the bottle. I had a copy of the POP papier sent to me, a copy of a copy of a clandeestinely smuggled scratched out copy of some notes from the tapes - which reminds me that there were people suddenly buying pallets - I was told this but don't know if it's true - but pallets of cassette tapes so they could start copying everything they could get their hands on, and they were doing exactly that. It was like a war zone and Memorex was the infantry weapon on the ground. But once I got my eyes on the actual information it seemed a little....thin....and more than a little....self serving. Sure it was meaningful to the time and the people, all of us. But it wasn't worth losing much sleep over. VPW had been sick for years before he died. In fact, the overall time of the Way under his acting leadership was relatively short, from the formal filming of PFAL in 1967 to his death in 1985. In fact it could be argued he really only put in about 12 - 13 really active years as President of the Way before he was hampered by illness. Sure, the Way times their history back decades before that but "The Way" we came in contact with, the guy in the skinny black suit wiping his schnozz and saying "Dot's RIGHT!" every 5 minutes really memorialized in 1967 - and then quickly became outdated within about 2 years. He was reinventing himself very quickly, then. You know I don't write off all of my years and work I did with others, what I learned and the wonderful people I met like yourself. But I lost my rose colored glasses long ago. It burns some people that I'm so blunt about it while valuing the Word of God and the relationships I gained. But I do, to me there's no conflict left, "it is what it is" and was, the good, the bad, and the ugly. I only have one thing left now, and that's more than enough for me.

lol i enjoyed that (years ago) about as much as i enjoyed him being a bus driver and serving the moogie moggie by serving me drinks fortunately for me the psycho's last tape was the last i ever heard -- he was a sick human being long before he wrote that letter or made his tape on the failure of the way corps i don't know if i feel up to repeating what he did

Chris Geer was so inept and confused himself - he was really the perfect tool, literally. No one could have bumbled their way through a so called effort to "help" others better than he did. He made a bull in a china shop seem like a ballet dancer in a field of wheat. I am not the only one who felt upon hearing that he had shown up in Craig's lap with a list of posthumous belly aches from VP that we were in for a long, bumpy, ugly and smelly ride. He's not unlike Lynn and others of that ilk - he admits later rather disingenuously that he was "poorly equipped" to carry out the work he was commissioned to do ("Oh woe is me, the burdened inadequate messenger who tried so hard!") while pointing his fat doughy finger of condemnation at anyone who ever had the misfortune to hear his voice. As with Lynn who raked VP and others over the COALS for their misconduct while dusting himself off as the now humbly and newly regenerated and so conveniently reinvented Teacher who had himself done wrong but who was all mo' better, just like that. I think Geer cast himself in a romantic light, all drama and no substance. I never saw - not one - even a single statement - that stated clearly 1. what he thought was "wrong" with the Way and 2. what anyone was supposed to "do" to fix that. There was plenty wrong with the Way and lots that could be done to fix it but he resisted all efforts to nail it down to specific changes and rather kept pushing an agenda of being 1. "on the Word", 2. Following the "man of God", who was now actually dead and 3. returning to "The Word". He turned any opportunity for positive change into a dithering whirlwind of condemnation and confusion, ultimately doing the exact opposite of what he said he wanted to do. Or exactly what he really wanted to do - shove it in the crotch of the Way Nash people he despised so much one last time, for good. Not to be too harsh, just sayin'....

Yup! Taught the furniture, and my dog. My dog was like a lot of people, only interested in snack time.