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Moved to Vermont thread

Ha! “The whole thing.” Yeah, I think you’re on to something. The POP is an unintentional confession and indictment, even if Geer injected his own PI bullshonta. As are victor’s early letters to his fledgling congregation begging for money. As are his letters to “his Corps.” Boy, were those Corps letters a bad look! So revealing. No wonder they’ve been removed from public view.

Did Saint Vic know that he knew that he knew? Depends on what you think he knew. I, personally, think he knew he was running a con. Proof of this is in the POP paper. Saint Vic went to G33r whining that Martindale was "ruining the whole thing.* Just what was the "whole thing?" Upon leaving that meeting, Saint Vic said, "Well bring it back." Notice, in both instances, there was no ta!k of for the glory of God, or the people needing the Word. Just ruining the 'whole thing" and "bringing it back.' Saint Vic was talking about ruining the con and that he wanted to bring it back.

Hey Nathan that sparked an idea about the policies for PFAL. As a class coordinator you were not to answer questions directly, but defer them to a Q and A session at the end of the class. This policy was highlighted to the new students from day one. With all of the mental acrobatics that the new student is taken through in the class, the net effect of this policy is like Nathan is observing in the U of L Romans class to not answer questions at all directly and to defer the answering of questions to the class coordinator. In all of the years of running classes and all the classes I ran I never once saw this policy result in anything other than people forgetting about their questions or them getting ignored. Peer pressure for Corps would prevent escalating any questionable areas where legit questions arose. How many of you ever experienced a last session of the class where any questions of substance were asked or answered? None for me. I postulate that this is a clear example of brainwashing techniques.

Ah, yeah. Revelation. Direct from God himself. But seriously... we all know how sneaky abuse was, in TWI. And some women know better than others. And we've all heard of the abuses that took place in major denominations, that were covered up for decades.

My friend is the safeguarding officer at a big church. There have been over the years various issues. What exactly do you do with the paedophile in your congregation? The rapist? The man who beats his wife? Especially if the victim is also a member of the same congregation! The church recognises that ALL are sinners. ALL of us have sins; some are more obvious and some are still hidden away. And so the church continues to welcome these people into the congregation. Forgiveness, yes, but wisdom too. There is a price to pay. Perhaps an abuser may not attend certain services (which the victims attend). Perhaps an abuser may only attend if someone else (a nominated person) is also there. I don't know all the rules for ordinary congregants, I only know that each case is determined on its own circumstances. And every care is taken to ensure the safety of vulnerable people, of victims. The diocese would deal with abusive clergy; there are other rules for such. Safeguarding is taken very seriously these days. Pretty much all churches have safeguarding policies which are openly available on their websites. Nominated persons are named, with contact details. Anyone who has any contact in a leadership-type capacity with children or vulnerable adults has to get a police-type clearance certificate from the Disclosure and Barring Service. (This doesn't apply just to churches.) Where is TWI's safeguarding policy? I don't see a link on their website. Anyway, it'd probably still be the foxes in charge of the henhouse. Nor does CFFM appear to have a safeguarding policy.

There's a bigger picture here. There's the predator, with all that makes him a predator. What happened to him (usually a him) in his childhood, to make him behave like that? What love and care did he miss out on? Where did the nurture go wrong? And then, there's the predator's nature. Regardless of nurture, there's something innate in children, which is why some are talented artists, performers, mathematicians, writers, orators - and manipulators, awkward kids (even as babies), that no amount of nurture can quite extinguish. Some kids seem naturally cruel. And then there's victims, with all the nurture and nature that happened to them. Some kids seem naturally kind, or pliant, biddable. For some, abuse that happened to pliant kids would pre-condition them to accepting more abuse later. Sometimes circumstances or events occur that mean a child has to learn coping strategies that become more or less helpful as the child ages. Perhaps among other good qualities (such as kindness, gentleness, compassion, thoughtfulness, etc) that should be taught to children is SELF-RESPECT and the ability to say NO! and be respected for that. NOTE: I'm not excusing any predator for responsibility for his actions. Or any other criminal either. We all have the choice of what we do with our mind, our bodies, and our actions.

Hi again Annio, having slept on it – the thought occurred to me that I was more concerned about digging myself out of a hole than listening to what you said...I also realize the shallowness and narrow-mindedness of my previous post...The thought never occurred to me to consider the perspective of evil done TO a person - - or any trauma they were powerless to prevent. In the flow of this thread, I had in mind the three types of people in a harmful and exploitative cult: 1. the predator 2. the facilitator and 3. the victim... ...a facilitator is a person who makes an action or process easy or easier – such as the process of exploiting or hurting others...I was a facilitator in TWI. I was not a predator nor a victim. By wholeheartedly supporting TWI with my finances, volunteer work, spreading their propaganda, and getting others to join this pseudo-Christian organization, I was making the work of the predators a lot easier by hiding the trek to the slaughterhouse from the eyes of the sheep... Facilitators don't necessarily have to know what they're really facilitating – like even a harmful and exploitative cult ...maybe that makes me somewhat of a victim too - getting suckered in to be a facilitator. Perhaps the lack of depth in my previous post came from old facilitator habits – thinking there's an easier way to fix this...I hope you can accept my sincere apology.

Annio, I really appreciate your feedback – and would like to redeem myself after I failed to limit the application of my post...I was addressing interpersonal problems. - problems people have when relating to each other...for me, that's the extent of Jay Adams' points I referenced...I did mention in that post I have broadened my perspective far beyond Adams – and I have a great appreciation for all the legitimate medical treatments, medicine, research and therapies available – something that Adams lacked...I apologize for my lack of clarity and specificity. I am sorry if I gave you the impression I was speaking to any and all problems that may come upon a person. You are right in mentioning the bigger picture of life and the ultimate priority of healing and deliverance...I totally agree with what you said so maybe I should clarify my perspective. Regarding mental health, medical professionals should be addressing the trauma that befalls a person – by any legitimate means possible – the various therapies, medications, developing technologies, continued research. ...A couple of years ago our daughter participated in a medical study using Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation (TMS) which is a noninvasive form of brain stimulation – the research is still evolving but so far the diagnostic and therapeutic potential is promising in treating a wide variety of disease states in neurology and mental health. Results for our daughter were amazing. She has down syndrome and had been diagnosed with clinical depression. To complicate matters she had become very withdrawn and didn't communicate much – it was a noticeable decline. The best we could figure out after talking to medical professionals and reading up on it – she may have been dealing with catatonia – but little is known about catatonia associated with down syndrome...But like I said the results of TMS for our daughter were amazing (the treatment was several times a week over a number of weeks). It was like we got our old daughter back. TMS seemed to have alleviated the catatonia thing and the depression is manageable. She's definitely more outgoing now judging by the feedback we get from the staff at the day hab she attends...and every night we've been watching the series Friends on HBO Max – she will often ask what or why they're doing something – this is a lot of fun and she learns more about our culture...and if you were to visit our home she just might corner you and tell you all about her cat, favorite restaurants or something she wrote on the computer.

Great posts Annio! It seems to me you have a healthy, kind and mature approach in all of this…I just wanted to share a few thoughts you brought to mind… …we humans are very complicated but imperfect social creatures…Back in the early 80s a very thoughtful TWI-clergy guy ran a Christian counseling seminar for all the Twig leaders in our area – in the seminar he referred to some of the works of Jay Adams. After that I really got into Adams’ stuff for a while – though since I left TWI and expanded my horizons in theology, counseling, philosophy and psychology I don’t always agree with some of Adams’ viewpoints – but I do think he nailed it on two things: 1. sin is always the problem and 2.interpersonal problems are usually never one-sided...the other person may have thrown the first stone - but I was quick to toss it right back at them! Because we are very complicated but imperfect social creatures sometimes it doesn’t take a whole lot for interpersonal difficulties to fester and interfere with our ability to bond with another – sometimes it just starts over some personal slight…after 45 years of marriage I can confidently say it’s a fight to the death on who’s fault it was - no, just kidding …most of the time it’s a lot of work to just sort out and admit who opened the can of worms and what particular worm has some dirt on another worm… Reconciliation is a big deal – not just with God, but also with people reconciling with people - Matthew 5: 23 & 24 even puts it ahead of worship! The kindness in your posts is the polar opposite of the hard-heartedness I remember in TWI…There was a tendency to write-off people over so many things – “he’s tripped out of the ministry” “she’s possessed” “he’s wrong-seed” "that whole group is off The Word" ...and sometimes certain leadership could be so vindictive toward someone who challenged them or criticized them - it would make you wonder if they were even Christian… …guess I’ve become a real softie in some ways…I like to believe there’s always hope – that a person can change…I think reconciliation is the final step in the forgiveness process – it repairs the bond… …I even give wierwille the benefit of a doubt. I know I am very critical of the things he’s done – and it’s important to bring such abusive, toxic and hypocritical pseudo-Christianity to light in order to warn others (per clear directives like in Matthew 7: 15-29 and II Peter 2 ) …in saying I give him the benefit of a doubt – I mean I don’t get into trying to figure out his motivation or intentions. For all I know wierwille truly believed he served God and God’s people. That doesn’t make everything okay – it makes him delusional. Since he’s passed away there’s no hope of forgiveness and reconciliation with him and his victims in this life…but who knows how God will resolve all the world’s messes in the next life…guess that’s still hope.

"Even if NO ONE shows up, you are to run your meeting just as you normally would." ......................................... Raise your hand if you ever did this.

Even that part of VP's history was plagiarized. It seems VP's story is a restatement of an incident that Billy Graham remembers from his own early years as a minister. I believe it appears, as a recollection, in his 1997 book, Just as I Am. Wierwille knew Graham. I'm sure he must have heard him relate this story at various times.

Yup! Taught the furniture, and my dog. My dog was like a lot of people, only interested in snack time.

Branch leader: How was twig last night? Twig leader: Tremendous! Branch leader: How many people showed up? Twig leader: None. Branch leader: That's tremendous! :P