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Isn't it true that the current Way organization still lauds the corrupt VPW as their founding "man of God?" About the Founder - Dr. Victor Paul Wierwille That's enough for me to categorize the current organization as corrupt. Its roots in Wierwille are rotten. Their current "tree" cannot be any good no matter how "nice" any followers might be. Many of us had first-hand experience with the authoritarian, narcissistic, predatory, abusive plagiarist named Victor Paul Wierwille. We know that he stole most of his teachings that are found on tapes and in his books. Many of those are still used today, or tweaked, or slanted this way or that. We know the women he seduced and raped and silenced. We know the emotional abuse he inflicted on anyone who questioned him. We now understand how cults work and how they make extensive efforts to hide their corrupt histories like the one The Way has and cannot escape. We know that no matter how many fresh coats of paint you slather over filth, the filth is still underneath. To any followers of this organization: ask where the money goes. Ask where the power lies. Ask what happens if you leave the group. Ask what happens if you disagree with the ideology. Think for yourself.

Just a little tune to sing to the kiddos in your life.

"Fact" was not the best word to have used in my post when mentioning how many Christian denominations are in the world. It's what came up first on a simple google search - admittedly, not the most in-depth way to research something. Concerning your mention of stories above, the first gospel was written over 30 years after the life and death of Jesus. (“The Gospel of Mark probably dates from c. AD 66–70, Matthew and Luke around AD 85–90, and John AD 90–110.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel) Also, “The majority of New Testament scholars also agree that the Gospels do not contain eyewitness accounts; but that they present the theologies of their communities rather than the testimony of eyewitnesses.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_reliability_of_the_Gospels One has to take it on faith when believing the gospels (which contains Jesus' perfect interpretation of the law and the prophets according to the opening post) were inspired by God and not simply stories (imo) passed on by men for most likely self-serving political and/or religious reasons. Remaining on topic of this thread, I think any interpretation of the Bible is that of the person teaching it. Calling it "Jesus' perfect interpretation" is a fallacy.

Or, apparently, EJ Martone, Assembly of God pastor as mentioned above. VPW - no scripture is of any private interpretation (iow - the bible interprets itself) EJM - Jesus is the perfect interpretation of the bible Fact - There are more than 45,000 Christian denominations globally and more than 200 in the U.S., according to the Center for the Study of Global Christianity. Which one has Jesus' "perfect" interpretation?

When in doubt, write: The Teacher Box 679 New Knockwurst, Ohio

Well... other than the "I'm right and they're wrong" aspect of your post I figure there could be some reasonable insight to looking at Jesus as fulfillment of OT law. I totally reject the paradigm of black/white, wrong/right interpretations of scripture. WE (humans/humanity) IMO are far too limited to be able to clearly define (most) interpretations of scripture as such. Stay curious and be willing to consider new ways to look at them. Just sayin'.

Hello everyone. Been thinking a lot lately about righteousness and wierwille's definition. From The Bible Tells Me So: You are Righteous Now: Is that what righteousness really is? The just shall live by faith. Where in scripture does it ever indicate that we can stand in the presence of God (as if wierwille stood in the presence of God) without any consciousness of sin? Biblically righteousness is a state that was granted to us by our identification with Jesus Christ. It's embodied in the spirit of sonship we receive at the new birth and we are told to walk after the spirit and not after the flesh...but guess what..we all sin...we all relapse back into sinful ways, we even commit a multitude of sins without knowing we are sinning at times. It's the walk of a child of God, the walk of an individual with two natures that are in constant conflict. So what does that have to do with how I feel?...welll... 1 John 3:19-21 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. One of TWO possibilites are listed here...either our heart condemns us or it doesn't and if it doesn't we have confidence towards God...what I see here is an almost child like innocence of the child of God and his relationship with his Father. This spirit of sonship also convicts us of sin, and Jesus said it would do just that. I can personally say that at times I am very convicted of sin and wrongdoing and that feeling of conviction leads me to confession and repentance...so what happened to st vic? Where did he lead us? 1 Timothy 4:1,2 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron Ephesians 4:17-20 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, 18Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. But ye have not so learned Christ; Here's what I think from a lot of consideration on this topic over the years....so let's start putting my ideas once again to the Grease Spot Pinyata of Doctrinal...let's bang some holes here.. Personally I think, based on my limited understanding of scripture, that righteousness is a state given at the new birth and in order for us to walk righteously we put off the old man and put on the new man. Ill refrain from more scripture quotes at the moment but this concept repeats all throughout the Church epistles. (I am no longer a dispensatinalist and no longer ignore the gospels as not addressed to me. It's the Church epistles that reveal what was hidden in God - a new creation in Christ that Christ will to bring to full fruition in the future when he hands the subjugated kingdom back to God - but that work of the new creation is well underway and it's Christ that is leading the efforts as the head of his body) It has nothing to do with how we feel, but we shoud pay close attention to how we feel because the spirit within may very well convict us of sin so we can put it off and walk in newness of life. I think victor paul wierwille's conscience was seared with a hot iron. I believe he was past feeling, and I can understand that fully because it happened to me when I was drunk all the time. Just numbed out and washed up. It's an awful state. I have no desire to sit here and beat on the memory of wierwille, however, it's his example we were given to follow. So, naturally, I was taught to ignore how I feel to the detriment of my own mental/emotional well being. Feelings come and go but the Word of God....yeah...clear as mud no? Let's rumble...

When I was in college- and for a few years after- I was involved with a SERVICE fraternity. Instead of a house and drinking games, there were service projects and showing up to work on things. It can be argued that it looked good on a resumè, that it provided free leadership training, and so on, so that it was useful to the member. (In fact, I argued that Christians might find it useful to show up and get some of the experience.) Either way, there was a lot of community service and work with other people. In fact, some people contacted us to work with them every year because we knew what we were doing. I've handled phones for PBS telethons, marshalled walkathons, worked on rebuilding a building, worked on Earth Day and Comic Relief (both in Manhattan, both in the same year), and other service projects. Yes, it's amazing how the skills are transferable. I remember once showing up at an assigned spot for a walkathon. We got to the corner before the officials assigned to the corner. I looked at the materials, and at my fraternity brothers, and mumbled something as I organized who was working with what. A few minutes after we arrived, the official arrived, saw the corner all ready, and left us to run it. They gave us some quick instructions, announcements to make at that spot, and handed me a bullhorn before going to the next corner- which was completely disorganized. (Looking back, I'm amazed they figured out who to hand the bullhorn to when we were all dressed similarly.) All of that being said, I kept that as college life and social life. Around that time, NY (state and city) had, in effect, been kicked out by lcm. That's when he'd demanded an oath of loyalty to himself PERSONALLY to follow him BLINDLY and without qualification (in both meanings of the word.) The entire staff of the state refused and were fired en masse. We were told they were all serving their own bellies and to ignore them, by lcm. But, we'd worked with these people and knew that was a lie, and we couldn't say the same about lcm. In fact, he was slated to show up locally once and he wussed out. So, 80% or more of the state walked en masse with the staff. Not that long into the process (a few years), one of the area coordinators started mentioning to me an idea that had been trickling down- the idea of public service, of volunteering for local events that needed help. He sounded like this was the most shocking idea he'd heard in some time. (Then again, he'd been hearing from HQ until recently, and now only from upstate for a few years, so a few new ideas were circulating.) I offered my counsel, and told him I'd been doing that for years at college and had accumulated over 100 service hours, so I had experience. (Minimum of 20 hours per semester, 2 semesters per year, 4-5 years at the time...) He gave me a look like I'd just claimed to have invented the idea of public service, and never uttered a peep to me about it again, let alone asked me for practical advice. Even for ex-twi, the idea that public service outside of official channels could work has ranged, at times, between surprise, shock, and outright disbelief. Now, it's decades later, and I'd expect the idea isn't so shocking anymore.

Yes! That is the modus operandi of these yokels. The way they treated you in this regard is correct in your perception of the way it way. Was I there? Nope. However, I have seen this pattern repeated in any branch I was ever involved in and there were plenty of those. Here is a prime example: Was living in VA Beach and a cat 1 hurrican rolled through. Was in the house for 2 solid days with screaming wind, no power, all the glory you would expect from such a storm. Well -- After the storm passed I went to work. I was framing housed back then and was working right on the ocean front. Went to the job and my boss was there with the rest of the crew. He started picking up downed limbs and we all followed. I spent around 4 hours just giving to the community. Well, when I got home I was reproved by me fellowship coordinator (lived with them obviously) for not keeping the household first. Yep...something that benevelont and simple was judged wrong by my fellowship coordinator. The only interation we really had with the community was talking down to them to get them to take a class or something....

I don't remember this phrase, but I believe it. The winced expressions of contempt were embarrassingly obvious whenever they heard about my altruistic activities. Usually, after fellowship, my wife would randomly mention some philanthropic cause with which I was involved - an effort to indict me. I was made to feel guilty, as if I should repent, be reproved and corrected, and instead of giving money to the local shelter for abused women or to the Arts, I should give that money to the fellowship. Literally. Actually. I had been involved in various philanthropic and charitable endeavors since I was a teenager, long before meeting my wife and her corps/twit family. They used it against me - evidence of my being spiritually immature and a mere babe in da werd.

First off, cool post I enjoyed the definitions and perspective. I zereod in on this point though because I think it speaks volumes both in the sense of what TWI teaches people not to do verses the right thing to do based on being righteous. TWI - they frowned (as we all know) heavily on getting involved in our communities calling that sort of involvement "designer causes" and so on. I think what you are doing is a solid way to go. Get involved! Pursue righteous causes, pursue justice - love it! Live rightly and do it in such a manner that is of true service and expresses God's love to our fellow man. TWI had us out selling classes. What better way to love our neighbor as ourself than to be involved on this level you mentioned Rocky! Thanks.

You expect contentious debate? Well, here's my initial thoughts. Righteousness, as I understand (and believe) is (in the spiritual sense) is not connected to whether or not a person "is aware of" sin, guilt or shortcomings at all. Consciousness from The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition. noun The state or condition of being conscious. noun A sense of one's personal or collective identity, including the attitudes, beliefs, and sensitivities held by or considered characteristic of an individual or group. noun Special awareness or sensitivity. noun Alertness to or concern for a particular issue or situation. noun In psychoanalysis, the conscious. Righteousness, in action (rather than inaction), is IMO, a dedication to doing the right thing. from Wordnik. noun The character of being righteous; purity of heart and rectitude of life; the being and doing right; conformity in character and conduct to a right standard. noun Hence, also In theology, a coming into spiritual oneness with God, because for Christ's sake the believer in Christ is treated as righteous. noun A righteous act or quality; anything which is or purports to be righteous. noun Rightfulness; justice. noun The quality or state of being righteous; holiness; purity; uprightness; rectitude. noun A righteous act, or righteous quality. noun The act or conduct of one who is righteous. noun (Theol.) The state of being right with God; justification; the work of Christ, which is the ground of justification. In the 36 or so years of my post-twi/post-cult life, I've come to define righteousness (for me) in terms of dedication of my life to righteous causes, to justice. Looking back to the twi definition, as quoted in the OP for this thread, it seems to be framed such that it is easily used as the foundation for a life of debauchery personally, and as the frame in which the cult and cultish norms in twi were developed. If I, the cult leader am justified in whatever I do, because a god declared me "righteous," then I am the lord and king, displacing God and Jesus Christ.