Leaderboard

Thanks Everyone. I appreciate the warm welcomes. I honestly have no idea how many people are left there. They keep that stuff pretty close to the vest. I can say though, that when I went WayD in '99 there were probably 50 to 60 people going out on the field from Gunnison, the West of the Mississippi group. The last WayMag I saw had pics of the folks going out and the groups were significantly smaller, as in the 5 to 10 range. Also, a development that would affect the numbers involved is the split that was the final straw for us. Yes, there has been another split up. A number of WayCorps had apparently started a group to discuss some grievances that they wanted to address to address to Rivenbark about how she was running things and how people were not seeing signs, miracles, and wonders. And the teaching from HQ had become uber stale. Ok, so I'm trying to remember and I may have some of details wrong, but this is what happened to the best of my recollection. This group began calling themselves Revival and Restoration, because their original intent was to reform TWI not leave it. I believe they first sent a letter outlining their "challenges" and solutions, and their intent to be respectful and work together with the BOD to figure it all out. I think they did call for the resignation of Rivenbark though. Anyways, Rico Magnelli, I think, had a meeting with her after the letter was sent where she summarily dismissed everything and, If my recollection is correct basically fired him. The letter was signed by some names you might know like Fort, Roberts, Moynihan, Horney, and Carter, to name a few. Anyways, this group had a list of grievances, including financial transparency, BOD accountability, and punishment of way corp for questioning Rivenbark etc. There were quite a few accusations. Anyways, our branch coordinators, whom we loved very much, were dropped in a backhanded way of just not being given an assignment. Also, the folks who had been our area coordinators for only a year, The Stiles were dropped for questioning Rivenbark. So this group has broken off from TWI and has reformed. Last I knew they were still calling themselves Revival and Restoration. My husband and I had been eyeing the door for some time, so we took it as our opportunity to leave. I still love many people involved in both groups, but I am not interested in being a part of any of them. I've had my fill of authoritarianism. I have the letters and other emails describing what went down. Maybe I'll go back through them and refresh myself, idk. I know some of you said you left around the time I joined, which was only a couple of years after "the fog" in 1990. When I first joined my fellowship was a very relaxed sort of hippyish deal. I smoked my first joint there, and had sex with someone in that fellowship for the first time. As time went on it became more and more controlling, and much more conservative. At one point we were instructed that it wasn't wise to go anywhere alone. Also, we were supposed to let the state leadership of any group know if we were even just traveling through their state so that we would be "spiritually covered." My husband and I, who were in our early 20's, were thoroughly reamed out at a meeting in front of everyone of course, that we attended on a trip we were taking because we hadn't let anyone know we would be in that state on our way to our destination. There was a "homo hunt" at the rock of ages in 95. Martindale became obsessed with homosexuality and in included in his version of the foundational class The Way of Abundance and Power that the thing that Eve partook of was a lesbian relationship with Satan who appeared as a woman, and Adam accepted it. (They subsequently just left that whole thing out of the foundational class they recorded after he was kicked) I often wondered if it was because of the alleged relationship between Donna and Rivenbark. When everything went down with LCM we were instructed not to look up anything to do with anything about the ministry or any of the people involved on the internet. Of course, this was to "protect us from the fiery darts of the wicked." After LCM left, everything became super boring and repetitive. Say what you will about him, but LCM was at least charismatic and entertaining. Rivenbark has a quieter gentler form of control and abuse. Over the years people tried to get us to move to HQ, but I was always struck at how robotic and fake anyone who went there came back. We actually did end up deciding to go into the way corps in 2003, and had all of our paperwork in when I ended up accidentally getting pregnant with our first child. Thank God for that. By the time we were eligible again, my husband had decided it wasn't for him. Shortly after I found out we were pregnant we moved back to my home state because I wanted my kids to have their grandparents close, and my father was dying. I was a new mom and I was traveling the hour and a half to visit my dad as much as possible and my fellowship coordinator had the audacity to "encourage me to spend more time with the household that I was." At that point I had started to see how much the ministry had come between my family and myself and I was trying to heal those relationships. I basically told him that my father was dying and I was going to get every minute I could with him and that I would never again put the ministry before my family and he would just have to get used to it. That was the first time I ever remember standing up for myself. from there it took 14 more years to officially leave. That's the short version of everything. It wasn't all bad, but I'm still working through things. I feel like an idiot at times for letting some of the stuff go on, or being involved with some of the things I was. For the last couple of years since leaving I have thrown myself into other things. I think I just needed some distance. After appearing on a podcast to talk about my experiences a few months ago, I have started to realize I need to work through some of this stuff now. I appreciate your listening. I'm sorry if this jumps around and is choppy. I find myself a little lost for words when it comes to some of this stuff, which is very unusual for me.

To clarify a point... it was late Friday, and perhaps I didn't take enough time to note that it was the rejection of Stephen's testimony (in Acts 7) that established Israel's (as a nation) failure to accept Christ as the Messiah. With Acts 9 being the record of Saul on the road to Damascus (which was foremost in my mind as I hastened to it), it was all too easy to think of it coming so quickly after Stephen's death (and skipping Acts 8.)

While I somewhat agree with the kingdoms link, I don't think it likely that the 12 apostles ever thought that they were commissioned (or that it was their task, however you want to say it) to "preach Jesus" to the Gentiles. Fact is, they were specifically commanded not to by Jesus himself. Well... perhaps you suppose Acts 1:8 nullified or changed that. But, take a real honest to goodness look at it, and think... did it, really? Who said or told you that this means (or meant) anything about being a witness to the Gentile (aka, dogs) of the world? Were not some of their own brethren already scattered unto the uttermost part of the earth? And, if they thought it meant (what most Christians nowadays seem to think it means) that they were to evangelize to all throughout the earth... then how does that fit or get reconciled to the plain fact that the 12 refused to leave Jerusalem in spite of the intense persecution there, that Peter had to be so strongly coerced to even darken the doorway to the house of Cornelius, or that by the time of Acts 11:19 (which some think a good 8 or 9 years after Pentecost) they had not so much as blinked in that direction (much less thought about it)? Maybe the difficulty is in our inability to relate much to or comprehend the Jewish (or Israelite, if you prefer) mindset. They were the chosen people, AND... they knew it ! What they also knew and were well aware of was the promise of a coming Messiah, the restoration of the kingdom to Israel (where they - the 12 apostles - would oversee 12 tribes), after which Israel would fulfill its role as a kingdom of priests, to go out as evangelists and priests unto the rest of the world. This was, after all, that which was said and spoken to Israel by Moses, Isaiah, and other prophets of old. So... what was their efforts directed towards? Simply to persuade the whole of Israel to accept Jesus as the promised Messiah. After which, he would stand, and return to earth... to finish bringing to pass all that was promised aforetime. BUT... it was not to be. Because, even with the plain and clear sign of Jonah put before them (i.e., resurrection from the dead), the rulers of Israel (speaking for the nation, as a whole) would NOT have this man (Jesus, the Christ) to rule over them. When was this established? Acts 8, folks. Acts 8. When and where do you see the story change and God changing direction? Acts 9. What changed, exactly? Well, it started with Saul... who, after a brief spat with some not so friendly Jews in Damascus, escapes to Arabia. Mt. Sinai, perhaps. Pretty much disappears off the scene for a few years, with God telling him to get away from and stay the heck out of Jerusalem. Why...? Maybe it just took a few years to "unwind" from all the years of intense religious indoctrination that he endured as a Pharisee of the Pharisees. Whatever the reason(s), he remains separated from the 12 and the church at Jerusalem. So, when does the church of the body of Christ and "Paul's gospel" (aka, the gospel of grace) start? With Paul. (Period.) He even says it (bluntly), in 1Tim.1:15. (Look up the real meaning of "chief" if you doubt it. The verse doesn't say he was the worst sinner. He was first in line to be saved by grace, and by grace alone - and he knew it. There was simply no other way, nor any other reason whatsoever for him to be saved, when the risen Lord and Savior knocked him off his high horse.) THAT is when the real administration of grace began (not Acts 28.) Neither VPW (and TWI), nor Bullinger, nor a lot of others ever had or got this right, and it makes one heck of a difference in understanding what is written Acts, the Pauline epistles, as well as other scripture. For all the "rightly dividing" that was talked about, we actually couldn't even get that this verse makes the point that you have to know which piece of the pie goes where and to whom it is addressed (and NOT that all the pieces are the perfectly right size or shape and evenly divided.)

T-Bone I wanted to say that at one point in my end times studies I had to go to the scriptures to make sure we weren't going have to endure the tribulation, but then I read all the scriptures in the epistles that confirm the tribulation will not happen till there's a falling away first, there are an overwhelming number of scriptures in that vein. So many preach the opposite though partially confusing to whom it is addressed, Israel will endure the Tribulation but will be redeemed and accept the Messiah during that period, but we who have believed Christ now, will be in heaven. I also wanted to take the time to address "no one knows" references in scripture. Watch and be sober, be ready, is quite clear in many scriptures too. Do the scriptures really say, 'no one knows'? Let's take a more indepth look at the scriptures including the greek. From: http://watchfortheday.org/know.html "When Jesus explains the time of the end in Matthew 24 to the disciples, we have all failed to understand the intent of the passage at the time it was given. Clearly Jesus details signs that must occur at the end of the age for when he will set up his kingdom. We must remember this comes just days after Jesus presented himself as the king in the Triumphal Entry on Palm Sunday. A number of Jews were hoping Jesus would establish his kingdom right then and there. We know that did not happen, but they were still confused and did not grasp what was coming in a couple of days to fulfill Passover. Consider this famous passage of Peter who did not understand what the Christ must first do in Mark 8:31-32: And He (Jesus) began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. He spoke this word openly. Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him. Why did Peter not like this teaching? It was because Peter did not understand the two advents of Christ. Peter wanted the kingdom now, but that was not what was going to happen. Consider this passage from Acts 1:6: Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” Even before Jesus ascended to heaven it was hoped that Jesus would establish his kingdom. We must remember that the disciples were struggling to grasp the whirlwind of events of those weeks. Of course Jesus knew this. So then, let us go back between Palm Sunday and the Crucifixion in the Passion Week when Jesus takes the disciples aside as recorded in the Olivet Discourse and presents them many signs that will occur. Jesus explains all of what must happen, but then he says: But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. – Matthew 24:36 This is the verse everyone seems “to know” by saying “no one can know” when anyone discusses the nearness of Jesus’ return, but that is entirely wrong. The Greek word used for “knows” is εiδω and it is in the perfect active indicative. It should be rendered as “has seen” as in completed action up to that point. Jesus is communicating the time of the end to disciples who do not truly understand the outflow of events that are coming. Jesus is yet to be crucified, buried, raised, and ascended. Jesus explains that no one has seen the time of the end, because it is not occurring at that time. Jesus is not restoring the kingdom as they are hoping will be done. Jesus is trying to drive that point home. He is not intending the message for us in the future to not know and see what he clearly revealed. His message is to the disciples who do not understand. No disciple has seen what Jesus just explained because it is still in the future. No one has seen or is seeing it. That is Jesus’ intent of saying that sentence. He is saying those events are not happening now, but are still in the future. But of that day and hour no one has seen, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. – Matthew 24:36 And so what does Jesus say to do next? He continues and tells us to watch. Here εiδω is used again and is “has seen”. Here is Jesus command to watch in Matthew 24:42: Watch therefore, for you have not seen (or have not known) what hour your Lord is coming. So the Church begins its life ten days after Jesus ascends to Heaven and still no one had seen of that day or hour. What then is the Church to do? Watch. We watch so that we might know. Is this consistent with other passages of Scripture? Absolutely. They are in harmony. There is no conflict whatsoever. Consider these: For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. –1 Thessalonians 5:3-6 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching. –Hebrews 10:24-25 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you. –Revelation 3:3 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John. –Revelation 1:1 Jesus has given us Revelation and the Scriptures are clear that we watch to know. There is no excuse. It is not biblically consistent, yet it is a majority understanding that “we cannot know, so watching is really a waste of time”. Really? The Great Sign of the Woman in Revelation 12 forms in the heavens in 4 weeks! What could be more clear? The evidence is overwhelming yet the Church is largely sleeping and lost in the cares of life. Clueless. Unbelievable. However, have we not seen this before when Jesus came 2,000 years ago? People stuck in their traditions and doctrines of men? We are in crunch time and it is truly not the time be confused. God is not that author. " ----- And what I say to you, I say to all: Watch! – Mark 13:37 Jesus' ministry to Israel, the Kingdom of God, and the Kingdom of Heaven, all play a role in decerning passages when dealing with Gods covenant with the Jews, Old Testament prophecy regarding promises to Israel of a Heavenly abode and 2nd coming of the Savior, Israel's recognition of the Christ as Jesus, the apostles mission to the Jews after the Ascension, the second coming of Christ, and the grafting in of the Church after the rejection of the Jews. I believe plans got scrapped, doors closed, Paul said I go unto the Gentiles when Israel refused to accept the Messiah Jesus Christ. What was to be after Christ arose and what Israel hoped for was put in abeyance, to our benefit, we became plan B. ---- Another member on this forum, Sunesis, wrote a very good post explaining this transition, here is a portion of their post: "For a little background, I believe the Bible, as I've read it over the years, is essentially, a book of prophecy. It concerns a coming Redeemer (Christ), and a coming Kingdom on earth (the Kingdom - which for our purposes here, includes the New City Jerusalem which Abraham looked for - it will be part of this Kingdom). Ok, so: 1. The OT prophesies Messiah will come. 2. Gospels - Messiah arrives. His ministry is to the JEWS ONLY. This is important. He does miracles - which are signs to Israel. They show and prove that he is the prophesised Messiah. Also, here comes another important part: 3. Messiah/Jesus preaches what? He preaches to the Jews: The Kingdom is at hand, all is ready. Believe on me (note: in the OT, for the Kingdom to arrive, all Israel must turn to the Messiah and he will bring in the Kingdom). So - its here! 4. Jesus is rejected and killed by his people. 5. But, he has 12 Apostles who were commissioned to preach Jesus - to the Jew first. 6. Acts: Peter at pentecost says "repent - the Kingdom is at hand." The Apostles preaching was to Israel. Peter quotes Joel - a prophecy to Israel. If you continue to read Acts, those who believed had the Holy spirit in them. They did signs and miracles. Why? Because they were signs that the Kingdom was at hand. Signs again to Israel. They were a foretaste of what would be normal, daily life in the Kingdom walking in the power of the Holy Spirit. The 12 Apostles were like, the last call at a bar, last chance - repent, Christ is standing on the right hand of God - the Kingdom is here. He will still return if you desire it! So, Israel has had prophets, the Word, the Law, the King arrives, then finally - the Apostles. After all this they say - NO. What happens? What is God's plan for if Israel should reject their Messiah and Kingdom? Acts 28 - Paul now begins his ministry to the Gentiles. The Kingdom is not coming. To emphasize this, the Romans come destroy the Temple, Jews are scattered. A new administration begins. All of Pauls NT writings: Romans, Corinthians, Galations, I and II Thessalonians were written BEFORE Acts 28. The Kingdom and signs were still being done, in fact they were so common, Paul has to tell them in Corinthians - whoa dudes, here's how to handle them! At this point believing Gentiles are also "grafted" into Israel's hope. What was Israel's Hope? The Messiah and the Kingdom. In Acts 26 Paul still says, I preach nothing but the Hope of Israel. During Acts, Gentiles were, by grace, allowed to partake of this Hope. So, how did Paul go, from healing people, to leaving Melitius at Trophimas sick, to Timothy being sickly, to a total lack of miracles? What happened, why did they stop and he wasn't healing people anymore? Different administration - beginning in Acts 28:26, where the prophecy for the third time is cited: hearing they will not hear, seeing they will not see, etc... I go to the Gentiles. It was after the book of Acts, after Israel has rejected the final offer, in the prison Epistles (Ephesians, Colossians, Philippians, I and II Timothy, Philemon and Titus) that Paul has a revelation from God - the cherry on top. It is: God has called a people who will people heaven. In Ephesians we are told we have Power. We do not need the "signs" for Israel anymore since the prophetic clock has stopped and Christ is now building a "new man" - a "new creation." Whose home will be in the heavenlies. The believer's hope in this day and age is: Heaven. Our hope is not the earthly Kingdom - that is Israel's. Once the "days of the Gentiles" are fulfilled, in Revelation God will then deal again with Israel and Gentile - for the final time. This time Israel will all call upon the Lord." ---- For further research on Kingdom of God and Kingdom of Heaven here's a good reference page: http://www.kjvbible.org/thekingdoms.html

I hear ya T-Bone, not to mention the Hurricanes of unusual size, Harvey, Irma, & any other pending Tropical depressions, the Mexico City earthquake, and the wholesale deception of the American public in this last election that is still leading people captive ushering in what is prophecied in Revelation. Here is a quote from Jesus Christ Himself: Revelation 3:1-6 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. 2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. 3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. 4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. 5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. 6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. I think the words for today are to watch and be ready. I'm briefly posting an excerpt of an article with a lot of heart, I'll post more later. It is a summation of sorts of what I've previously posted. The last 2 paragraphs are stellar. From: http://watchfortheday.org/thesign.html "The rarity of the signs and the linkage should bring no question to their importance. These signs will not occur again anytime soon and one is spelled out clearly in the final book of the Bible. As Jesus said, there would be signs in the heavens, and if these are not them, then what else could we possibly be looking for? In the end there are no alternatives. The Revelation 12 Sign of the Woman has been there in the text for all to read for nearly two thousand years. It is the only great sign mentioned in the Bible. That should be a big hint and a hint we all failed to see until very recently. It has been a neon flashing sign so big that it was missed in plain sight. The problem was that many saw this sign as a picture before Jesus was born, but no such alignment occurs then. It is also not an allegory of non-conclusive heavenly imagery to make Revelation colorful. It is a sign in the physical heavens and it is in just a few months. The Revelation 12 Sign occurs in the “after these things” portion of Revelation, which happens after the Church passages of Chapters 2-3 or “the things which are”. This is then a future sign physically in the heavens concerning the final time. Revelation 12 is a unique part of the Book of Revelation as it comes after the seven seals and seven trumpets with the kingdoms of the world becoming Christ’s. The end of chapter 11 describes the end of the seven-year 70th Week. Chapter 12 begins another perspective of Revelation and the Sign of the Woman lays out the overall salvation plan of God from the beginning. The Woman represents Israel whose Seed is the Messiah. The Sign of the Woman on September 23, 2017 then fits with Micah 5 where Israel is given up until the Woman gives birth again. ““But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are little among the thousands of Judah, Yet out of you shall come forth to Me The One to be Ruler in Israel, Whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting.” Therefore He shall give them up, until the time that she who is in labor has given birth; Then the remnant of His brethren shall return to the children of Israel.” Micah 5:2-3 NKJV‬‬‬‬‬ Notice how our Lord gives up the children of Israel until she who is in labor has given birth and then the remnant of Israel returns. This giving up period is the duration of the Church and the Church has not replaced Israel. So the question then is, what is this birth? Is it merely this Sign of Revelation 12 or is the birth that of the corporate Body of Christ when the Church is transformed at the Rapture? The time we are truly born again, as blood and flesh cannot inherit the Kingdom of God? The child in Revelation 12:4 is taken (harpazo) to be delivered from the Dragon who brings the Antichrist. Is that not what the Rapture is about? Christ was not taken to heaven to be delivered. He gave His life for us and effectively crushed the Serpent’s head. It would seem this Sign of Revelation 12 speaks of Corporate Israel bringing forth the Corporate Body of Christ that is taken to heaven before the Nation of Israel endures the final hour. This sign in the heavens then appropriately looks to mark this transition and transformation. September 20-23 is then a great moment to pay attention. On September 20, the alignment of the Great Pyramid speaks to the coming of our wounded Savior as the Morning Star-King on the morning before the observed day for the Feast of Trumpets—the Last Trump to which Paul referred to as the time of the Church’s gathering by resurrection. It is the opinion here the observed calendar is correct since many events and calculations have occurred according to the observed calendar. But again, we are talking merely a two day difference between the 21st and the 23rd of September. Trying to nail down the exact moment is in the end difficult to do. It would seem wise to not be so concerned over the fine details and realize that three days is still a pretty narrow focus for the transition. We can probably watch all of these days. So it would appear the Sign of the Woman signals the soon onset of the 70th Week of Daniel. This Sign is not going to happen for at least another 1,000 years. In the end this comes down to faith and consideration of what all points to these dates. It would seem to behoove us all to take the possibilities, at least, seriously. These signs of 2017 again do not occur in a vacuum. They have support from the Lunar Tetrads and Conjunctions, as well as the progression of events in the world centered around Israel. It is the time. We may be down to our final weeks as the Church to witness to the remainder of the world that is lost. However, the world does seem to know that all is not well and doomsday approaches. Indeed it is. The question comes down to what a person does with Jesus and the gift he offered through his death on the cross. Whatever point of history we are in, that is the question. That is the bottom line. Believing in Christ and accepting his gift of pure grace is what will deliver us. It is the only thing that can save us. We will soon see that the world cannot save itself. Scripture promises that it will soon be humanity's darkest hour. Those who believe now will be taken to be with the Lord in likely a few short months. The rest will then have to endure the coming dark hour and many will decide. Now is the time of salvation. Our Lord will soon reign over the Earth." “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.” John 3:16-17 NKJV

Having said that awhile back…and thinking of the upcoming astronomical event of September 23rd, I’m not going to make any predictions here – just stating the obvious – things have been getting dicey for a while now...if there’s anything to biblical prophecies – everything going on politically, economically, socially, etc. seems to be a protracted setup that one way or another will change the world as we know it - consider the following links: Equifax data breach employees have embedded chips microchips implanted in humans microchip implant by Wikipedia bringing middle east tensions to a boiling point what would war look like with North Korea is America headed toward a new civil war social unrest and political tension in America the middle east powder keg climate change the big thaw technology's bad effect on the environment brief history of technology's impact on environment I believe Jesus Christ will return – and that he will change how things get done in ways that we can’t even imagine – no matter how many times we’ve studied prophecy… How well do you feel you’re prepared? I’m not asking along the lines of a come-to-Jesus meeting…I’m just thinking out loud – how prepared am I if things don’t play out exactly like I thought they would. Will Christ return pre, mid, or post tribulation period? Is the interpretation of the book of Revelation to be based on Preterism, Futurism, Historicism, or Idealism…or any combination therewith…and how will the millennial period unfold? Are you absolutely sure you know the answer? I’m not meaning to be a downer – my post is cautionary…that’s all… just saying sometimes I don’t even place any faith in certain of my pet doctrines. In times like that I lean to something…or rather someone who far outranks me…someone who has been around for a long time…and is more real than my favorite bible studies…that someone is Jesus Christ: “All this I have told you so that you will not fall away. 2 They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God. 3 They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me. 4 I have told you this, so that when their time comes you will remember that I warned you about them. I did not tell you this from the beginning because I was with you, 5 but now I am going to him who sent me. None of you asks me, ‘Where are you going?’ 6 Rather, you are filled with grief because I have said these things. But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you…7 33 “I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.” …John 16: 1-7, 33 NIV == == == == 36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left. 42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him. 45 “Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46 It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns…Matthew 24: 36-46 NIV Love and peace T-Bone

My pleasure T-Bone! The Stellarium link: http://www.stellarium.org is so cool! With it's software you can look up any day, hour or location clear back to the birth of Christ and beyond-backward and forward in time...kinda like God...he he he :) and see the stars day or night and their positions, astrological signs etc, highly customizable and free. Good stuff. Our Heavenly Father is apparantly all about math and precision, one can retrace the behavior of stars thousands of years ago, we just have to know where to look. I'm sure hundreds of thousands saw the Bethlehem Christ Star when he was born, few were actually watching for it, few understood the meaning of what they saw. Through use of the software above, the differences between the 3 BC constellations and planets and the ones on Sept 23rd this year appear. Also interesting is that right before the Feast of Trumpets there's a Lunar eclipse visible to the Middle East and to most other countries on that side of the globe. It's called a penumbral eclipse, which is only partially visible to certain parts of the world (not the USA). It happens when the sun, earth and moon are in an almost straight line together and earth's shadow blocks the reflecting sun rays that light up the moon at night. A penumbral lunar eclipse occurs when the Sun, Earth, and the Moon align in an almost straight line. When this happens, the Earth blocks some of the Sun's light from directly reaching the Moon's surface and covers all or part of the Moon with the outer part of its shadow, also known as the penumbra. Since the penumbra is much fainter than the dark core of the Earth's shadow, the umbra, a penumbral eclipse of the Moon is often difficult to tell apart from a normal Full Moon https://www.timeanddate.com/eclipse/lunar/2089-september-19 https://www.timeanddate.com/eclipse/penumbral-lunar-eclipse.html

I found this article in the link below, well presented and compelling with much background information and good arguments from the author regarding the September 23rd planetary alignments. I strongly encourage you to read the whole article on this webpage and not just the excerpts I print here. Bear in mind this article is an interpretation from a viewpoint, take it for what it is. I don't agree with everything written but feel overall there's some great end times information. This individual has done so much more research and had much more time than I in the subject matter and in my opinion, has put together a well written dialogue. http://www.heavenlysign2017.com/supporting-data.html Let us not forget that two of the greatest days in all Christendom have occurred on Jewish feast days-the day of Christ's sacrifice for us- The Passover, and the day of Pentecost. I believe Jewish holy days are still of some significance to God and relevant as we, the Church of the One Body, are the wild olive tree being grafted into Israel's own olive tree, as Israel is once again in the future, grafted back in to the tree we share together. Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Romans 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? The author states, "These very seasons, namely the last days, were not only foreknown but they were planned. The appointed time which is taking place in September 2017 is the Feast of Trumpets." "The Feast of Trumpets is one of only 3 Jewish Feasts that has yet to be fulfilled. Jesus was crucified on Passover, buried on the Feast of Unleavened Bread, resurrected on First Fruits, and The Holy Spirit descended on Pentecost. The three feasts left to be fulfilled are the Feast of Trumpets, the Feast of Atonement and the Feast of Tabernacles. We know that the Feast of Atonement is the day of judgment and the Feast of Tabernacles is when Jesus takes His throne in the Millennial Kingdom. This leaves the Feast of Trumpets, the appointed time yet to be fulfilled, the feast shrouded in mystery." Again, I highly suggest you read the whole article but here are excerpts below to hopefully "wet your appetite" to read it: "The information I’ve been covering may be exhausting but it is by no means exhaustive. My hope is to wet your appetite and encourage you to begin study in prophecy and pay attention to the signs in the heavens. Anytime I tell a believer about the Virgo 2017 sign one of two responses follow. Either “no man knows the day or the hour” or “I don’t believe in astrology”. To the first I say “could we know the week?” and to the second I say “I don’t either but I believe in a God that made the heavens for signs and seasons”. The church tends to get caught in two extremes, date setting without looking at God’s calendar or turning a blind eye to God’s magnificence on display in the heavens. By taking the time to look at biblical prophecy through a Jewish lens, God’s calendar and the signs in the heavens you cannot help but worship the Creator not bound by time,The Alpha and Omega, The beginning and the end, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Taking the meaning of each star and planet covered above through all cultures for : Regulus, Venus, Mars, Mercury, Sun, Spica, Jupiter, and the moon the message is clear. When we put it together we have this: The King, The Lion of Judah, The Morningstar of Love, The Coming War, The Written Word, The One Who Breathed Life Into Being and Light Into Darkness, Is Gathering the Wheat, The King Is Arriving As Lightning With Grace For His Virgin." " "The heavens during Jesus' first coming : What takes place in the heavens is directly linked to God’s plan of redemption. Each star has a meaning in the fulfillment of His divine order. It is helpful to understand that Jupiter is known as the “King Planet”, Regulus is the “King Star”, Leo represents the Lion of Judah and Virgo is the Virgin or Mary. Remember, the heavens declare the glory of God and these representations in the heavens are not far fetched applications nor are they limited to a Christian perspective. On September 11, 3 B.C. there is a unique collaboration of events in the heavens. Jupiter (King Planet) encircles Regulus (King Star) three times all while in the constellation Leo (Lion of Judah). Jupiter passes Regulus every 10-20 years but the rare quality of this event is that on this occasion it encircles it not once but three times on the Jewish New Year, Rosh Hashanah, The Feast of Trumpets. On June 17th, 2 B.C. exactly 40 weeks (the typical human gestation period) Jupiter is positioned directly over Jerusalem in the heart of Leo (The Lion of Judah). On December 25th, 2 B.C after moving 15 months without stop Jupiter enters retrograde motion directly above Bethlehem. If you take this all into account we have Jesus being conceived September 11, 3 B.C. (Feast of Trumpets), 9 months later He is born with the King Planet directly above Jerusalem while in the heart of Leo (Lion of Judah). Six months later we have the star of Bethlehem or King Planet directly above the town of Bethlehem. If you are honest with yourself you cannot conclude these are coincidences. If you believe this to be far fetched I implore you to download www.stellarium.org and check for yourself. You don’t have to work for NASA, even an elementary familiarity of astronomy can reveal a remarkable glimpse into His sovereign order. The humanists are using technology in an attempt to become God. We should employ the same technology to reveal the One True God who knows the end from the beginning. More information can be found at www.bethlehemstar.net as well." "Genesis 6:3: And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. This could represent 120 jubilee years. In Leviticus 25 a jubilee year occurs every 50 years; 120X50 = 6,000 years." "According to www.torahcalendar.com (they've calculated the lunar cycles (God's true calendar) for the last 6,000 years using advanced technology)) the year 6,000 began October 5th 2014 and ends on 15th September 2015." "The Great Sign in Heaven of Revelation 12 a great sign appeared in heaven a woman clothed with the Sun and the moon under her feet and on her head a crown of twelve stars and she was with child and she cried out being inlabor and in pain to give birth. Jesus called such events fearful sights and great signs from heaven. The great sign from heaven will be the largest sign that has ever heralded a prophetic event. We are on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem. It is three in the morning on September 23rd 2017. The first constellation and the great sign is rising above the horizon. This is Leo, the constellation of the Royal lion. When the dawn breaks, we will see that leo is worn as a crown of royalty by the Virgin princess. The lion forms the appropriate crown for her because she is of the house of David. The Lion of the tribe of Judah. Significantly, this is the highest well-managed of all the nations. This means the Virgin is also born of the lineage of the high scepter of the seat of Adam and her belly is the second Adam the savior of the world on this fateful day. The Virgin is clothed in the sun and the moon is at her feet. Sunlight floods the sky. The prophecy clearly states that the great sign is to appear in the heaven. High Noon approaches ,then on this special day the Sun turns as black assackcloth and the stars quickly fill the sky. Just like on the day of the crucifixion it will remain dark for an incredible three hours. We stop the motion, zoom in, we fill the screen with our two constellations to better see how the constellations are formed. We generate blue lines between their stars, then we turn off the constellation artwork leaving us with the lines of each constellation. We first turn our attention to the constellation of Leo and Leo the alpha or brightest star is Regulus. The regal kingstar. Eight additional bright stars are used to form the constellation, but this leaves us three stars short of the 12 stars prophesied to crown the Virgin on this special day. 3 wandering stars are in rare formation within the boundaries of Leo. They are Venus Mars and Mercury. This gives us the prophesied 12 stars to form the crown. Now we move to virgo. Her left hip is formed of the alpha star named spica which means the seed. Her right hip is formed by the Zeta star, which name means the branch. On this day the Virgin is to give birth to the king planet between these two stars. Jupiter the King planet images the rescuing power of our Messiah. Because of this planet's gravitational strength it takes countless hits or impacts for us from many of the dangerous objects that cross into the inner solar system. Also, the King planet has just spent nine months in the belly of the Virgin reinforcing the prophetic imagery of the scripture. To illustrate this wonder we will now run the clock backward for a year. Notice that the King planet stops and turns around twice in retrograde motion while in the belly of the Virgin. In turn the moon flies by along the ecliptic every month. This action by the moon will give us a means to mark the passing of the months. We stop our backward motion. We now change into forward motion. We pause the motion as Jupiter enters the belly of the Virgin. Now count the times that the moon flies by as Jupiter is in the Virgin's belly. Are you ready? 123456789, and in just under 10 months we arrive back at our faithful september 23rd 2017. Now we will recap the prophetic imagery in the great sign. First we have Virgo the virgin princess imaging the Virgin Mary. Second the Virgin is clothed in the Sun imaging the life-giving spirit of God. Third the crescent moon is at her feet heralding this day as the Jewish feast of trumpets. Fourth on this day the Virgin also has a special crown of twelve stars representing the lineage of the high throne of the nation of Israel. Fifth the virgin gives birth to the Crown Prince the Messiah. Sixth the crown prince has just spent a long nine months in her womb, the time of human gestation. Seven so we can see this wonder, a special heavenly event causes the sky to fall dart for three hours in the middle of the day the combination of all seven of these independent actions into a great sign brings to life the exact imagery of the prophecy. However if this sign were to occur repeatedly in the course of the travels of the planets then how could we interpret it as a significant event? How often does this configuration occur in the heavens? The answer. It occurs only this one time. At no other time is the Virgin clothed in the Sun with the moon at her feet while she is wearing a crown of twelve stars at the same time she gives birth. We have found no astronomy program that shows this configuration occurring at any other time throughout history from the days of Adam, 6,000 years in the past, until the end of the millennial reign 1,000 years into our future. Yet this wonder was described in detail in Revelation chapter 12 nearly 2,000 years ago. The astounding fulfillment of this great prophecy is like a clarion blast of God's trumpet broadcasting to all that the sign is a magnificent herald of end times events. Furthermore, its appearance is to occur on the exact day the Lord indicating a plan he laid out before he created the heavens....It is also the 70 year anniversary of the UN resolution allowing for Israel to be recognized as a state. It is 70 years from 1947 to the rebirth of Israel." Luke 21:25 There will be signs in the sun moon and stars... Jesus said this. Then is it OK to look for them? The answer is Yes!