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Okay.......let's go down a checklist: "Incredibly ridiculous admiration for VPW"......(your words). Check Teaching wierwille-doctrine......1) Word takes place of absent Christ [Christ is absent?]; 2) Hierarchy positions to lord over others.....[why can't 'advanced class grads' be the leaders???]; 3) The Law of Believing.....[are they teaching this? still?]; 4) Ultra-dispensationalism.....thus, rendering the 4 gospels "for our learning"; 5) Wierwille was THE man of God......and Our Father in the Word [like CFF gave allegiance/innuendo to for years!!]; 6) Not willing to discuss or admit that wierwille was a plagiarist.....big time!!; 7) Wierwille's "research" is the final authority....cannot challenge it; 8) Sexual predation by wierwille, martindale and others is well-documented; 9) Corps coordinators were in lockstep-loyalty to wierwille and martindale.......and yeah, I'm looking at you Moneyhands, Forts, and Horneys; 10) The corps program was straight-up indoctrination.....and followship, NOT leadership!!! Etc. etc. etc. Check. Centralization of power........authority is wielded by Ex-corps coordinators and corps. Imagine that. Check. No local church involvement........just "teaching the word." Gawd, does it get MORE OBVIOUS?? Check. No repentance to God......for hurting others and leading thousands astray. Nope. The past is past. Check. No accountability.........anybody can teach the damn propaganda. I'd rather SEE the sermon..... Check. No reaching out to CFF, or CES, or other splinters......WHY do they want to start their OWN group? $$$ and adulation. Check. Of course, other corps have followed them out the door.......but have they come clean? Or joined another cult? Check. Cult institutionalized.......hanging with those who jumped ship when you did? Is THAT the standard? Check. Stage #1.......Do NOT ask for money. Build the following FIRST. Every splinter does this. Check. Some people just don't understand or value the true meaning of **freedom in Christ.** .

People who accept it as being a story are not the ones who usually have difficulty in discussing it. Rather, it's usually the people who insist in its historical reality.

One of the key determinants of humanity is the ability to recognize patterns. Another is that unless adult humans undergo a significant emotional event, they don't change their values. Another is that we act from habit most of the time. It's not that we are 100 percent certain... but unless they demonstrate something out of the ordinary, we've pretty much got them pegged.

I was involved with the Way International Ministry for over 20 years. PFAL class grad 1974, Advanced Class 1979, WOW Vet 1994-1995. I raised my family in the word, according to leadership. Three of my four children are Advanced Class grads. My oldest daughter went WOW after High School graduation, 1991-1992. When she came back home to Ohio, she married a wonderful man who was also raised in the word and involved with The Way International. When the "dang hit the Fan" - Martindale and the leadership doing their "mark and avoid" trip - my family was kicked out for standing up to leadership (NO disagreements allowed or condoned). However, my firstborn and her husband stayed in. So we joined the ranks, like so many other God-Loving families, of being split apart. We had many years of little contact. She moved around the country, and they became ever more active in the new regime headed by Rivenbark and crew. I started constant prayer when she informed me that her husband, herself, and my two grandchildren were committed to becoming Way Corps - #37. I have occasionally read the experiences of former Way Corps leadership who have left, on these forums. To mention I was "troubled" by the course their lives were headed is an understatement. They spent one year in-residence and became graduated Way corps leadership in the Post-Martindale Way international. Once again they moved across the country to serve in various leadership capacities. With the horror stories of experiences endured while living at Headquarters, I was disturbed (heart and soul) when my beautiful daughter told me that her family was moving back to Ohio and living as staff Way Corps at Headquarters. NO-NO-NO-PLEASE GOD NO!!! They were (WERE) on staff for a few years...and this is why I wanted to share the GOOD NEWS OF GOD'S DELIVERANCE--- My daughter and son-in-law have moved away from New Knoxville and they resigned their Way Corps status!!!!! HALLELUJAH!!! i have been praying for them to wake up and it took being on the inside at the Way International Headquarters to finally open their eyes to the corrupt rot that infests that Ministry. They bought a house and have secular jobs now. I just had a long conversation with my daughter and am thankful to know it was a fully-aware and committed joint decision to cut ties to the Way International and "lay low" in order to adjust to the real world. She didn't go into details, but my heart leaped within me for joy when she told me, "Mom, I quit drinking their kool-aid!" Our God Almighty is SO AWESOME!!! And His deliverance is available - in His timing. She's finally free!! Her husband and children are free!! I am so thankful that I learned the truth of God's Word via the classes and teaching of the Way, but after I left I experienced how large our heavenly Father is - He is not constricted in a box or by the dogma of The Way International. Now her family has that freedom to live a truly abundant life together. My prayers have been answered. God bless for allowing me to share the fullness of my heart right now. Above all, I know you all know what this feels like.

So who exactly is the "us" and "them" here in this? The R&R group consisting of whom exactly? The characters in the video? The extended cast of characters who signed the document and now are no longer welcome at the Way? Some anonymous body I am unaware of who go to R&R fellowships? Us consists of whom? Those potential customers on the airwaves? Those attending fellowships? Actually they don't have a funny way of going about it. They have a predictable way of going about it. So since you brought it up, what was the disagreement you presented? What group discussed it? An Ecclesiastical council from varying Christian backgrounds? A group of local pastors in your area? The "they" you mentioned have had "a few teachings" already on this? What were these teachings? Where were they presented? A lot of what I "claim" is simple conclusion from what the Bible says about faith and shipwrecks and such.

'A leopard doesn't change it's spots'...we've all heard that one huh ? So it is with this group...where is the 'godly, sorrowful repentance' ?? A number of us on here were hurt, coerced, bullied, threatened by some in this RnR group. Do I expect an apology ? NO. Do I even want an apology ? NO. I just want them to keep the fudge away from myself, family, those I love. They may come across as sheep but lift the carcase and peek underneath.

https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/sea-lioning

I am not going to play the same "sealion" game you constantly play on these threads. Thank you for participating in the conversation. Good day.

By bloodshed, meaning sacrifice?

It's a story. Stories are often more true than reality. They're describing something difficult to explain. If the story says Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall we do not go on and on about the scientific validity of how an egg could climb a wall. I'm assuming the Cain and Able story are communicating something real. Real back then, real now. What does God represent and what do Cain and Able represent? What is being described in this dialogue thousands of years ago that still is true today? That could be talked about forever. "If God is all powerful why didn't he blah blah" are not interesting lines of questioning. IMO.

Rocky, I agree. Same Bull as TWI, just a different day.

Are you their apologist on Greasespot? Not one of them has the fortitude to come here and interact, they meet behind the scenes to plan teachings and annual gatherings. The are not interested in other Christian input they know it all and have convinced themselves of their “calling”. They behave in exactly the same fashion as every other splinter group has over the last decade. A behind the scenes BOD. Whether they call themselves that or not, people learn from what they are exposed to. They behave this way because they have not learned to behave differently. Their actions and lack of them expose the gain or filthy lucre in their hearts to be over you as they were in the past. It is their lust for position. The lust for position and function in a certain fashion they cannot curtail any more than a crack habit. This is the old wineskin. It is the one their pride and arrogance can’t allow them to get rid of regardless of money involved. Accepting that major premise from them is a bribe.

Thanks for your well wishes, having Asperger's as opposed to waybotness. I guess having Asperger's is a lot better than being a waybot. I just hope you are right. But there is the fact you mentioned that I haven't noticed the responses have stopped (the have?) so, God forbid, maybe it is waybotness. Oh no! And to think I haven't even noticed that I keep using scripture, ever increasing scripture at that. Could that be because I don't? Check up on that and get back to me. Or not. OK, I'm done with the sarcasm. Now onto something serious: You guys are soooo way conditioned that it is impossible to carry on a decent conversation. If you can look with a clear mind, you will undoubtedly ascertain that probably 90% of the references to the way are from GSC. I seldom mention it in my posts or answers. GSC seems to think that if someone doesn't fall in line with GSC that it has to be because of the way. There are other reasons. Bitter coloured glasses comes to mind. I left the way (I was on staff) a long time before anybody here after the scandal and I've not been to one fellowship since. You guys say stuff about which you know nothing. That doesn't reflect well, but I guess you were hurt pretty bad after having put your faith in a man instead of God. I understand the damage is done, but it's not too late for you to change though.

I see what you are saying. For the record I never bought everything VP said. I always verified to the best of my ability. If I didn't see it clearly for myself I just didn't know. I never just took anybody's word for it. Now some of the things I say may actually agree with VP, but it's never VP channeling through me. I also can't emphasize enough that I'm not trying to convert you. I'm not asking you to believe one single word I say. All of that is totally up to you. We are discussing the Bible and nothing more than that. I'll have my take-away and you'll have yours. So with that in mind I offer the following. 1) The Bible makes sense. We in this age of grace are told many times that God wants us to know. He never really asks for blind faith. The Bible story is very plausible to any person who understood the language. 2) John 1:1 says that the word was God and then it said the word was with God. That doesn't make sense in normal language. You can't be you and be with you. You can only be you. Other people can be with you but normally you don't go around telling people you are with yourself. They would say something like, "that guy is crazy." So, I would suggest that perhaps we have a figure of speech here. It grabs your attention because it doesn't make sense if taken as written. 3) This verse, by using this figure of speech, is emphasizing how God and the word, the Bible, are in complete and in perfect harmony. If you want to know God, learn the word. You can't learn about him any other way. 4) The word became flesh is also another figure of speech. Again, in normal speech words have nothing in common with flesh. Words don't normally become flesh. Jesus was as much of a reflection of that word as God himself. That has a rather incredible ramification. If Jesus was a man and not God that would be some feat indeed. No other man ever followed God perfectly from start to finish. Big deal for a god to follow his own law! But a man, that's another thing altogether. Just a side not there. 5) I offer the above in the light of many, many clear verses that very plainly makes Jesus and God two different individuals altogether. Jesus told God in the garden that he was willing to subject his will to God's will. Two wills, two people. Then there is the 47 times Jesus is called the son of Gog but not once, God the son. Too many to cover here right now, but maybe a study of it is called for.

Okay, guys... y'all keep saying there are a lot of differences between the gospel as preached by Jesus, and that as expounded by Paul. So have at it. What do you perceive as the differences, and why do you think that? Are the differences appropriate? Do some want to live like Jewish people? Or do they want to consider themselves as "dogs" (Mt 15:26) which is what Jesus calls a beseeching Canaanite woman? Right. Tossing the ball in...to.... plaaaayyyyyy.... now!

i don't have much to contribute on this thread - just wanted to quote some posts that i find touch on ideas i think about. while i don't find any major difference (in a polemic or contrasting sense) between what Jesus taught and what Paul taught - and even though the book of Romans is in my top 7 of favorite books of the Bible (note i'm saying my favorite does not mean i fully grasp it all) - for inspiration, moral guidance or simply to reaffirm what little of know of Jesus - i usually tend to read the gospels over any other books of the Bible. in my humble opinion - i believe one gets a very clear and simple picture of what it means to live the christian life in the gospels; i'm not denigrating the other books of the Bible when it comes to strengthening one's faith - or developing a full orbed theology (whatever that is).....i could be way off on all this - i do have a tendency to think of Christianity as more about lordship than scholarship anyway. == == == == edited to add hi to Abby - sorry about my bad manners - i meant to say hi in the shout box the other day - but got side tracked by Waysider's reference to a Kenny Rogers' tune - guess comedy took priority over courtesy...:wave:/>

If you had family in when you left TWI, the last couple of episodes will really hit home.

this probably won't be a popular response but I think the difference is religion, ego,power, etc. I would follow the gospels before I would follow the epistles. i am with you 100% on this.

No, I said it. And yes, I also said it seems harder, namely because walking by the spirit entails something that is contrary to what we are naturally accustomed to and comfortable with. If I can't "see it, hear it, taste it, touch it, or smell it," how sure am I of it, and/or just how "real" is it?

Did I say anything about following the law? Because I don't think I did. And why should it be harder to "learn to walk by the spirit" than to follow The Golden Rule?

Yeah, I tried JewGen in the wee hours of the morning when I couldn't sleep & likewise had a hard time getting around. Thanks for the other tips. Dad's grandparents (I'll have to find out whose side it's on) lived in Russia. His uncle Bernard (after whom he was named) jumped from a 2nd story window to avoid people who had come to draft him into the army. Unfortunately, he impaled himself on a fence & died. That's when grandpa decided to move to the US. More later, darling. Hafta run

Genealogy can be time consuming, but very, very interesting. Our very own Hap from here at Greasespot got me started on it a number of years ago. I was able to pull all sorts of documents including immigration records, census data, etc. and I learned a great deal about my family in the process and even met (on-line) some relatives I didn't know I had. :)/> But I've never spent the time to try and find records from Eastern Europe and my family on both sides did not immigrate to the US until the early 1900s. Ancestry.com is definitely the way to go if you want to put together a family tree. You don't have to buy a year long subscription. You can buy one that is only for 1 month or 3 months, grab what you need and be done. At least, that was how it worked the last time I subscribed to them, which was quite a while back now. Does your dad know where his parents' families from? Or when? Or what their names were before they came to the US? That information can also be very helpful. Also, if you want to trace your Jewish heritage you can check out a mormon website that has tracked Jewish Geneaology and I believe their site is free - though incomplete. There is also another website called JewGen that has information, although I have always found it diffficult to navigate.

Good for you for not going back. You were smart.

God first hi Wraysed i enjoy your story glad you got out thanks for telling us about it thanks with love and a holy kiss Roy