Leaderboard

Wierwille continues to be a polarizing figure of huge dimensions and consequences......as another generation of youth are indoctrinated by cult elders. Some view his life and "ministry" on par, or greater, than biblical prophets or apostles. Others have documented accounts of wierwille as a sexual predator, deceiver and opportunist. Few, it seems, have moderate views of the man. Of course, twi-headquarters and splinter groups, hold a superlative opinion of "Dr. Victor Paul Wierwille." They have a vested and profit-making interest in cheerleading his legacy. Splinter groups have little relevance without clinging to the wierwille brand and all that he taught. I tend to see wierwille in terms of his narcissist pathologies to acquire power and dominance over others. It was only after he had "cornered the market" of stolen and plagiarized work from others that his "ministry" came to the fore and he made greater strides of controlling others. Dependence on twi was the alpha and omega.........not independence. Everything in the cult is a sequence..........of followship. Not once in all my years in twi did any leader encourage me to "go to the Lord in prayer." Every cog in the twi-machine functions on OBEDIENCE TO WIERWILLE-DOCTRINE..........not biblical authority. To study the effects of wierwille's cult...........one needs to analyze the evolution of wierwille. I submit my thesis........ The Six Stages of Wierwille's Climb to Power The Unfulfilled Pastor..............church pastor in Payne (1941-1944) and Van Wert, Ohio (1944-1957).......restless and unfulfilled. The Searching Opportunist......traveling to seminars, retreats, and church camps looking for direction and opportunity to advance. The Plagiarizing Teacher.........starting December 1957, wierwille is now unhindered from church boards to plagiarize and teach others' work. The Ensnaring Supplanter........filming pfal in 1967, vpw uses preemptive strikes against family, church and community to entrap followers. The Usurping Authoritarian......wierwille power-grabs movements (Way West/East) in 1969-1970 and operates with stealth & subterfuge. The Pinnacle Cult Leader..........5 corps training campuses embody isolation, immersion and indoctrination --- to teach and recruit others. Base Camp...........scripture and homiletics training. From this starting position, wierwille could always rely on his "supplies" to climb greater heights. Who doesn't want to hear about God's love, abundance and power? Who doesn't thirst to know that a Merciful God will bestow health and prosperity to them and their family? Who doesn't hunger to know that a Righteous Heavenly Father will guide them thru life and into eternity? With homiletics training, vpw was adept at uplifting many who heard his sermons. But.............church was confining. And, wierwille was a man on the move. Clearly, his seminary classes and life's experience were limited. He needed to learn more, much more.....to advance his thinking beyond its confinement. His narcissism wanted to stretch its legs........and, besides, every seminar or retreat that wierwille attended gave him the opportunity to get out of Van Wert. Did it also give him opportunity to see other women? Probably. Wierwille was a man who didn't like boundaries. In the late 60s, he headed to California to check out the orgy action in Haight-Ashbury, didn't he? Yep. And, in 1953..........B.G. Leonard's class, The Gifts of the Spirit, changed wierwille's life and trajectory. It was THE ROPE that aided wierwille to climb higher, much higher. After leaving the Van Wert Church in December 1957.......wierwille, the plagiarizing teacher, hit the highways month after month to teach "his" foundational class and pay the bills. He not only needed students........he NEEDED faithful people to tithe to his fledgling work. From 1958-1967, wierwille was a one-man show........teaching classes, city after city. Wierwille's class and marketing strategy was to reach church people. What he didn't seem to grasp.........is that nearly 85-90% of these students went BACK to their churches and communities. They were not looking to be transformed or transplanted into twi-servitude for a lifetime. Mrs. W's book, Born Again To Serve, documents years of classes and confrontational letters that wierwille sent out at certain points of frustration. The Troy believers launched a mass exodus in 1960 when vpw and harry voted to move the Van Wert Headquarters to the family farm. They believed that the wierwilles could not be trusted in keeping the finances separate from the farm and The Way, Inc. The filming of the 1967 class...........had a subterfuge agenda. What was this new hidden objective? To entrap new students into his organization by destroying their old support systems of family, religion and community........and erect a new system, a spiritual family that replaced their "earthly family." In essence: A Cult. Add lots of homespun stories........intermix ridicule of church denominations......then, demand that all students ---- "stand with the ministry that taught them the Word. Having done all, STAND." Oh, and just write the teacher. Make sure to come visit the farm. See the wierwille barn. Meet "Uncle Harry" and "Aunt Sevilla" and have lunch in the Ecumenical BRC basement. Cult Warning: The agenda is to replace your "earthly family" with this NEW spiritual family, the Household of God. In 1969.........wierwille's narcissism flares up big time when Heefner and Doop [Way East and Way West] are pulling in MORE students and growing exponentially. According to Doop, he and wierwille had an agreement that 15% of all tithes would be sent to headquarters and the other 85% would stay in the area. [I will look for that GSC-information for confirmation.] So, what does wierwille do? He goes into their statewide meetings and power-grabs the movement. The Usurping Authoritarian HAS to be the Top Dog of the Show. Wierwille NEEDED young ministers and firebrands to advance his climb to power. The Corps Training Program was the final act of betrayal by wierwille. It will always entail "The Zero Corps"...........the ones who would NOT commit to wierwille's demands. Though wierwille turned the reins of this program over to others, he was always hiding in the shadows to plunder the youth. Spiritual abuse was part and parcel to its methodology. It was subtle and deceptive and devious. For years, wierwille traveled on his motor coach to these corps campuses and preyed upon these young, innocent corps girls. When he summoned the unsuspecting girl, she had no idea what was about to happen. The cult leader had reached his pinnacle of power over others. He was "untouchable." This 58 year-old sexual predator made sure that he had consumed several cups of Drambuie coffee so that he was well liquored up for these late night sexual romps. With absolute power over others..............wierwille had reached his summit and fulfilled his narcissistic pathologies. ~~~~~~~~~~~

The "nostalgia for research" article/thread prompted me to contemplate the significance of "inerrancy". The Way Ministry focused primarily on study of The Pauline Epistles. This was a precedent that was established early in the PFAL class via the introduction of Biblical administrations (Dispensationalism), the concept of observing "To Whom It Is Written" and the idea behind all people belonging to three specific categories. ("Jew, Gentile or Church of God") In addition, it was established early in the PFAL class that what "Holy Men of God" spoke or wrote was tantamount to words directly from God, himself. Thus, we were to consider the contents of The Church Epistles to be equivalent to words from God (Holy Men Of God Spoke.), directly to us (To The Church of God), At one point during the course of the Fellow Laborer program, we were to read Ephesians a minimum of once a day. Then, we were to rehash it at our night twigs every night. Given the rigidness of the schedule we observed, this didn't last long nor were people very consistent in their diligence. That, however, is probably fodder for another topic. Here is were it gets sticky. Using the aforementioned criteria, it became an accepted "given" that whatever Paul said in Ephesians, Corinthians, etc was the same thing as God saying it directly to us. Suppose for a moment, though, that Paul was, perhaps, the VPW of his day. (So often, people would put forth the inverse idea that VPW was the Apostle Paul of our day and time.) Even now, years after his death, with the advent of the internet and the plethora of information it puts at our fingertips, some people still aren't able to see that VPW was really a con-man. People in the first century did not have access to resources that could prove or disprove Paul's legitimacy. We have heard people say that it's God's will we all speak in tongues (one example) because God said so in "His Word". Did He? Or, was it Paul who made that statement? Question five, of "listening with a purpose", in session eleven, poses the question, "Is it God's will that we all speak in tongues?" According to the answer key, the correct answer is "Yes". But think about it. Who really said "I would that ye all speak in tongues."? Wasn't it, in fact, Paul? Did he really say that "to us" or to a specific group of people two thousand years ago? There are many, many more examples of places where you could insert "Thus Saith Paul." What if Paul was really a forerunner of what we now call "con men"? What if Paul was the VPWFHDAT? (VPW for his day and time) It certainly shines a very different light on the importance and "inerrancy" of The Epistles.

Yes my viewpoint also. I love reading Paul. There is some really inspiring uplifting stuff there. But other stuff really wild. And whatever direct issues he was dealing with, like at Corinth, when you get a group like the Way with its secret society swinger's club interpreting it, it's bound to be twisted. Your question posed on "canon" had me look that up in a dictionary. Intriguing: can·on·ize ˈkanəˌnīz/ verb verb: canonize; 3rd person present: canonizes; past tense: canonized; past participle: canonized; gerund or present participle: canonizing; verb: canonise; 3rd person present: canonises; past tense: canonised; past participle: canonised; gerund or present participle: canonising (in the Roman Catholic Church) officially declare (a dead person) to be a saint. "he was the last English saint to be canonized prior to the Reformation" synonyms: declare to be a saint; More regard as being above reproach or of great significance. "we have canonized freedom of speech as an absolute value overriding all others" synonyms: declare to be a saint; More accept into the literary or artistic canon. "a familiar, canonized writer" sanction by Church authority. Those who decided which writings were "in" and which writings were "out" were a council of Roman Catholic priests. I wonder if they had the same type of questionnaire they did then they do for saint evaluation. "Did he perform a notable miracle while alive?" If so, check yes. If not, check no. LOL. And of course councils like this never, ever, ever, ever, ever make mistakes, right?

Maybe Jesus emphasis is more on the vine as something that grows and climbs around, over things and keeps going ? As opposed to a stationary tree, the vine will keep moving, spreading. Blessed to be a branch !!

Another wonderful post Skyrider....encouraging both critical thought and self-reflection. Your willingness to reveal your deepest personal “lens” view of experiences you witnessed or endured, without worrying about covering for your own naïveté at the time, due primarily to the vibrant idealism of youth at the time many of us got involved, is most admirable imho. I appreciate your honest insight and your reflection of TWIt “history” as you experienced it then, and as you understand it now, some 40 years later. I am far less “kind” to dictor paul than you are. From my own interpersonal interactions with dp, I don’t think he had near the cleverness you give him credit for, Sky. He was a spoiled little brat, sexually abused baby of an Aryan family of 8. His intellect was a C- at best throughout his academic career, when he wasn’t failing. He mastered one thing. Plagiarism. Vic was a charlatan from the beginning. But, he was just a small-time crappie in a huge pond of Elmer Gantrys in the 1940s who were looking to make a comfortable living and stay outta WWII. Plus, Adolph Ernst...his daddy...was a Nazi supporter in the German-American Bund founded by Lindbergh and Fritz Kuhn in 1936. Young dictor grew up in that racist, fascist environment, and they even spoke German in their home, before they learned English! So, dp’s “call to ministry” was nothing more than a fortunate turn of events which got him through a cheap Evangelical and Reformed seminary, and ordained as a clergyman in that denomination with his own church, St. Jacob’s in Payne, OH, as Skyrider has recorded. That began a bumbling, stumbling, rumbling, bull-in-a-China-shop romp through the Bible Belt Fundamentalist Jesus culture of the post-war Midwest. Quite a conservative area of the USA at that time. His entire Chimes Hour Youth Caravan “founding” of TWIt was just the beginning of his hustle. He saw what worked with kids, had a nice, steamy affair with Rosalind Rinker, and had his first child, a son, Donald Ernst. Then he got a promotion to a bigger, more important, better tithing E&R church in Van Wert, St. Peter’s. Got him out of Payne before his shenanigans could be uncovered, settled him into a comfortable, economically stable community with a built-in guaranteed flock to fleece. He was simply playing the denominational pastor game and really just wanted to be as big as his heroes, Oral Roberts and Billy Graham. At the AC at HQ in the sumner of 1972, dp said: “I’m not an Evangelist like Billy Graham, or Oral Roberts! I’m a teacher! I tried to reach out to them in the 50s to work together for the Lord. You know, when they pack ‘em into their tents and stadiums, get ‘em born again and then what?? Send them to ME! I’ll teach them the greatness of the accuracy of Gawd’s rightly divided word!” He said that right after he finished playing a tape of Oral Roberts’ preaching his famous 4th Man Sermon. Dic was just a greedy young ne’re-do-well from a hick German farm town in the middle of nowhere Ohio, who got outta the hard work of taking over daddy’s farm, or starting a business of his own like his brothers, by choosing the easy, well-respected con of Midwest clergyman, knocking up his HS sweetheart, and grabbing and groping his way through one small group of suckers after another. When he was lucky enough to stumble across folks like Peter J. Wade, David Anderson, John Somerville, Ken Klug, Walter Cummins, Jim Doop, Steve Heefner, and Donnie Fugit, it was THEIR gifts, abilities and enthusiasm that made dic’s class a hit, not dic’s personal presence. Often, his personal presence just caused trouble for everyone! He was a jerk in the opinion of many. Until those same men had the Bible ministry they loved stolen from them and brought under the iron fist of Herr Victor the First. The progress of dic’s new possession really took off when he got rid of his competition. He started the corpse in 1969 with Ken Klug in it, John Lynn, Pat Browning, Johnny Townsend, and couple of others. The famous Zero corpse. Started again in 1970 with the first corpse of 9, including 1 guy at ECU. Again, not really planned or thought through beyond the free-spirited idealism of young hippies who really believed ole Dic was teaching the word like it hadn’t been known since the 1st Century and there were miracles, signs, and wonders everywhere! Dic wanted a core group as disciplined and tough as the Marine Corps after the Zero corpse pooped out to get married and take care of other personal priorities. That’s why he loved ECU so much. John and Tim Somerville started the “work” at ECU. John volunteered for Vietnam Nam to prove the revelation and power manifestations to himself, and was truly a hero and esteemed warrior among his fellow Marines. Dic said if John could do all that for the Marines, why can’t I get people to do that for God and His word??! Why can’t God have a Marine Corps?? Hence, the concept of the way corpse was born. Again, no cleverly calculated, sinister, MLM plot. Just the continued outworking of one man’s pathology now gathering steam through a serendipitous cult of personality that was building around a completely incompetent, dumbass, perverted drunk. Imho, Dic had a lot less to do with building his cult than the first 5 corpses and the WOW program. It was those groups that most adored dictor, enjoyed the thrill and joy of genuine Christian revival when they first took that class thing, were free enough to just pick up and go wherever the man-o-gawd told them too. It was not dictor or the stupid class that got me into TWIt. It was my closest and most beloved friends. It was the power of miracles, signs, and wonders and no authoritarian control. As the money began pouring in, Harry and Vic figured they better invest it. Best investment?? REAL ESTATE! Emporia, Rome City, Gunnison, Limb homes in OH, IN, MI, NC, KS, CA, NY, all bought by TWIt in the early 70s. The Colleges, campuses, camps, limb homes, etc., were all money-laundering schemes that Dic and Harry stumbled into, which were then “perfected” by Howard and Don, and all the new early corpse grads flooding HQ and all the new “Root Locales” with millions of laundered abundant sharing dollars. The only names on ALL the deeds to those properties were those of TWIt trustees.....Harry Wierwille, Ermal Owens, dictor paul, Howard, Don, and da Forehead. That was it until the Allen lawsuit was settled. Whose names are on the remaining deeds?? Ohio? Gunnison? That’s when the real systemization of dic’s evil began imo. Dic himself was too dumb to do anything but drink and molest women while reading anyone else’s Bible teachings a couple of times a week in some quaint little midwestern hamlet in Ohio. He was a slick con. He knew the game. He was always on the prowl. He was clever, not intelligent. He was deceitful, and ambitious, not honest or humble. He was mentally ill....untreated, uncontrolled mental illness dysfunctionally working itself out since his teens. He was a charmer and manipulator, not by will, but by nature. No redeeming social value, spiritually empty, and intellectually vapid. So, though dictor paul was lucky enough to attract some very talented people into his sex/personality cult, I don’t give him credit for diabolically planning, thinking through, or conceiving what he eventually destroyed. Sadly, he used a lot of wonderful, smart, talented, authentically loving, idealistic young people, who loved Jesus and just wanted to do the right thing to pay for and fulfill his own hubris and lusts. A pimp and a whore and a bully. What a ministry!

This totally reminds me of some bathroom graffiti I read once that said: "God is dead" - Nietzsche - 1875 Then that was scratched out and over it was written "Nietzche is dead" - God - 1900

Rocky, You are spot on with the pyramid scheme stuff. And I love the Plato quotes too. Peace.

"However, I would agree that a whole lot of doctrinal mistakes and missteps have been made as a result of the misunderstandings and the guesswork that has taken place right here in Genesis 3... so much so, it's as if it's designed that way - to purposefully confound and fool puffed up minds and the (egotistical) intelligentsia of mankind. " I don't think mankind needs the help. Old joke: Two Freudian Psychologists pass each other in the street. "Nice day," says one. "Yes, it is," replies the other. After they pass each other, both wonder "What did he mean by that?"

https://m.chron.com/entertainment/arts-theater/article/Art-Daybook-Inside-the-memory-of-a-cult-13066647.php

I say everything Paul wrote was what Paul wrote. WHO determined Paul’s personal letters and writings as being “the god-breathed word of God”, or pure “revelation from Jesus”? Bullinger? Constantine? Walter Cronkite? Buddha? Mohammed? Brahma? Vishnu? Confucius? Moses? The Pope? Billy Graham? Kenny Copeland? Pat Robertson? Joyce Meyer? Which exactly, are the parts of the Pauline writings that you can prove to me are written by “revelation from Jesus Christ” to Saul of Tarsus? Who Canonized the books of the Bible? What were the criteria they used to determine what was god -breathed and what is man-breathed? What criteria do you use besides some man-breathed commentary, book, or theological theory? PFAL? How To Enjoy The Bible? The Companion Bible? Any one you choose is only as good as the private interpretation of it’s author. Your view of my “credibility” is equally as valid.

May I ask, you have a rather WHAT perspective? At the risk of starting something I may not be able to finish, may I pose that ALL of the first several chapters of Genesis compose what historians (and others) properly categorize as a creation myth. It seems that every ancient culture/religion has one. Myths are not necessarily untrue, they are simply STORIES. Have any of you ever heard or read about cultural literacy? a traditional or legendary story, usually concerning some being or hero or event, with or without a determinable basis of fact or a natural explanation, especially one that is concerned with deities or demigods and explains some practice, rite, or phenomenon of nature. (quote ends here... not sure how to fix the formatting whackyness that follows) ----------- As such, in Genesis, it may be simply and fairly characterized, when people haggle over the meanings of words or the timelines (like in the first seven days spelled out in Gen 1) that they are overthinking, overanalyzing and just plain spinning their wheels. Further, what does it have to do with Thus Saith Paul?

For me, understanding quantum physics explains the genuine science behind the ability of the Risen Christ to be anywhere and everywhere He wants to be whenever He wants. No problem for me understanding that “miracles, signs, and wonders” are indeed “available” in the physical universe without any need to break or supercede “natural law”. E=MC2 is both a natural and spiritual truth. I am one who chooses to believe that God is as omni- as She chooses to be with absolutely NO limitations. That’s just me.

I personally think "The Last Adam" would be a tremendous name for a band.

Hi BecomingMe. Welcome to the Spot. Nice to meet you. I come here because it's closer than going to California to get my head together. LOL. Plus no way I could afford housing there lately. As to rambling, I personally think I do that really a lot. And I have a really big mouth. Yep. Big mouth rambler, that's me. I think the PTSD will go away in time. Mostly. I mean the good part about it is if it doesn't then we can ramble on about it until it does. It's kind of a built-in self healing mechanism. LOL.

T-Bone, great observation. I definitely think it is exactly against Christ because it sets up a human structure in place of Christ. If something is in place of Christ, then all of the normal benefits of Christ are not being realized. The adulation and dare say praise owed to Christ are instead diverted to the "other Christ" or "little Christ" or "anti Christ" object. Any real relationship benefit with our living and ascended Lord and Savior is also replaced. Even down to the proscribed language of prayer. Unlike in mainstream Christianity, where people are known to regularly pray to / talk to Jesus in a sense, this is verbotten in the Way, because of a scriptural manipulation. "We don't pray to the son, we pray to the Father in the name of the Son", and then you have that whole bridge poster or whatever to describe it. Another way around it is "the Word takes the place of the absent Christ". All right - you're going to have to pardon me while I rant for a moment. <rant> First off, why the F is Christ so F'ing absent there, F heads (perdon my French as that is what you can substitute in place of the Fs) ? Second off, I'm sure you need some "Wierwillein Logic" to get there that involves poor understanding of mathematics transitive property of equality if I recall. Last, is this some kind of predecessor to the fear and reality that robots are taking my job? Is Jesus to grow old playing checkers because now he's not needed as "da Verd" has replaced him? </rant> I know I will garner criticism in my rant because supposedly the intent is that Christ isn't physically present but your Bible is, with all it's 500+ Bullinger's "also"s marked in your KJV as well as your "holy spirit usage" numbers because you are an Advanced Class graduate and that is a prerequisite LOL. But really. Come on now. Think about it. No tinfoil hat needed. Raj can speak to his family in India over Skype personal every Big Bang Theory episode. But Jesus, who could poof appear to people here and there in his new body, do a nice nature trail on the way to Damascus for a bit then disappear, and all such even before he ascended, he can't really accomplish the real involvement thing? God has to replace him with a series of tomes many centuries removed from original languages and intents? No, Christ is only absent because people make Him so. Cults make Him absent by replacing Him* with centuries old tomes, the interpretation of which is given to wizards in their tribe only. *So if the capitalization thing triggers you, just think of it as Jesus as my Lord is important enough to me for me to capitalize his pronoun when I'm making a point but sometimes I don't so don't make a thing out of it, K?

Exactly................"people wouldn't stick." This is well documented in Mrs. W's book as she details a list in 1958, 1959 and 1960 of wierwille's pfal classes in various cities. When you consider the hundreds of people who sat thru his classes each year (1957-1967)........the question becomes, "What happened to all these people who, having heard these truths taught live by Dr. Wierwille (cough, cough), were supposed to commit their lives, effort and money toward word-over-the-world twi servitude?" Apparently, they didn't see -- 1) power or 2) abundant living.........as highlighted in its promotion. So......when vpw films the class in 1967, what does he do? He adds and augments certain preemptive strikes against the denominational churches. Wierwille not only wants his new students to sit thru his series of classes, but to stick with him. He demonizes church elders and their motives.......to guilt and shame anyone who, having taken pfal, would even think of going back to their church. With each passing year, the rhetoric escalates.........until vpw and others were teaching that denominational church hierarchy have the seed of the serpent. Egads! The level of hyperbole and accusations was absurd. Then, once you attend the "advanced class".......you hear about the Illuminati, the Thirteenth Tribe, Marxist Minstrels, None Dare Call It Conspiracy, Seed of the Serpent, etc......you're indoctrinated into the inner sanctum and servitude. Add......a year or two of going WOW, or Corps Training and you become absorbed into the cult blob. Leaders over leaders over leaders......each following orders of next higher (or lower) unit. As a leaf on a mighty tree (LOL).....you give respect to the twig leader, branch, limb, and trunk leader. Seems like more and more.......you are getting closer and closer to the dirt. Then, work on staff AT THE ROOT.........now, you've gone underground. Wowsers!!! It seems clear to me that wierwille took stock of all those pfal students LEAVING HIM IN THE 60s.............and struck out on a subterfuge agenda. What was this new hidden objective? To entrap new students into his organization by destroying their old support systems of family, religion and community........and erect a new system, a spiritual family that replaced their "earthly family." In essence: A Cult. Wierwille needed to separate these young students from their support systems for longer and longer periods of time. Not just a three week class.......else, they go back to friends, family and work/education. Start summer camps......like the churches do, but for the purposes of building an *us versus them* mentality. Later, add WOW program......and then, the corps program. The youth are malleable and fall prey to indoctrination. The corps program was a multiplier in wierwille's climb to power: 1) Isolation of these "training centers" gave twi the availability, time and power over the individual without outside interference, and 2) Conformity to be obedient and follow "elder" corps established a pecking order that permeated the campus and fed the egos of even the most inept "elder" corps. In the end..........it all came tumbling down. Lots of reasons, I suppose......but the youth grew up and real life responsibilities, decisions and motivations were staring them in the face. Who has the means to give "volunteer services" to twi for a lifetime? Why? Why is this opportunistic cult hoarding millions? Where is this power and abundance that wierwille taught? Everyone is selling soap........and it's all being washed down the drain. The whole damn thing was a scam........as wierwille took every opportunity to advance himself into the spotlight. It's a scam...........and that's why "people don't stick." .

Ok, here goes. I grew up mostly at HQ - not in the frying pan; in the fire. The standards for children there were ridiculous. Basically, be perfect. Listen, remember, obey. Be a good example. Don’t be a stumbling block. Dress appropriately. Speak respectfully. Don’t be angry. Don’t be sad, be thankful. I watched some kids, especially as teenagers, become angry and rebellious. Others, like me, became as compliant and people-pleasing as a person could possibly be. I was complimented often on my “meekness.” In childhood, this meant a rather controlled atmosphere. As a teenager, it was absolutely suffocating. I’m now well into middle age, and I find that I have very little sense of self. The mental work I’m doing now is mostly about separating my “cult self” from my “authentic self” (as Steven Hassan labels it in Combatting Cult Mind Control) - I also think of it as new man vs. old man with the new man being false behaviors smothering my real personality. I’ve always thought I had pretty good self esteem. I realize now I feel fine about my cult self - being disciplined, keeping things clean, being a high achiever, serving others to the detriment of self. I have a deep self-loathing for that hidden authentic self that isn’t “perfect” - is spontaneous, joyful, sexual, angry, free, artistic, childlike, grieving. It’s taken months of counseling, thinking, reading, and agonizing just to realize this. Still working on how to let it out. Another part of growing up that still affects me is hyper-vigilance about “danger.” The idea that the devil was out to get us; and if you are “out of alignment and harmony” you’ll be outside of God’ protection; and we were taught that people we knew had DIED because they didn’t follow their schedules or didn’t follow their leadership’s advice; this adds up to a brain trained to be alert to the smallest inconsistencies in the environment (PTSD). Then put in the strong imagery of Athletes of the Spirit. My friends and I were obsessed with it. We learned the seed of the serpent dance and would argue over who got to be her and which devil spirits we got to be. That imagery was so strong for our young minds. Taking the advanced class made it even more vivid and more urgent. Then, if you were at HQ in the 90s, you remember lunch time. LCM would talk for hours every week sometimes, lecturing about the things God was “showing him” or about how we all needed to be so vigilant or about people - telling their personal lives and struggles to everyone and talking about how the “adversary” had gotten into their lives and how devil spirits were infiltrating their minds. Is it any wonder I was terrified to drink? To try drugs? That has seemed like a good thing to me for a long time, but I now realize I was so constrained by fear that the mere idea of losing control sends me into a near panic. It wasn’t good. And along with all that came the underlying belief that if I wasn’t all those “good” things - a strong disciple, believing positively, behaving according to the Word, doing what my spiritual overseers told me to do, blah blah blah - I wouldn’t be loved. Discipline of children was so strongly emphasized (and LCM criticized parents so heavily) that as a child, I subconsciously picked up that I wasn’t good enough and wasn’t lovable if I wasn’t right in line. Now, as a parent, I really do think at least my mother loved me unconditionally, and she told me that when I left the way. I have a lot of family left in the way. I stay anonymous because of it. Still afraid of losing their love over my “disobedience.” I guess posting here is one way for me to push back and not allow myself to be silenced, even if I’m not fully out there. Baby steps. In a lot of ways I was lucky. I went to college instead of going Wow or Way Disciple right away. I of course wanted to go in the corps - because how else were you really somebody? - but was lucky enough to get through college and realize I didn’t want to do that. I spent my 20s wading through all the doctrines I tried so hard to keep believing in, but I just couldn’t get them to make sense with real life. I rejected them. And didn’t realize the mess all this has made of my psyche. I was a true believer. I did the things you were supposed to do. I toed the line. I put my heart and soul into it. And all I got was this broken spirit.

I don't know about the rambling...

By far, you're not alone in feeling like you ramble. So far, I don't think anyone else would characterize your posts as such. So, no need to be shy.

I'm an old timer too. I come frequently and read the posts. I post infrequently but I'm here watching for those who seem to want help escaping from the cult. We are a solid, sane group of individuals. We are quite varied in our pursuits, but generally our love of God and obedience to the example of Jesus Christ unites us. Welcome. BecomingMe.