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At this point, it pretty much goes without saying, yes, they HAVE lost all grasp thereof... as WE did when we fell under the influence of Wierwille, a master manipulator. However, it also has occurred to me that "critical thinking" is the antithesis of the Wierwille Mystique. Skyrider, perhaps you could weigh in on that idea. Very brief and cursory research on the subject brought my attention to the following excerpts from a few people who have written on the subject of critical thinking: Someone with critical thinking skills can: Understand the links between ideas. Determine the importance and relevance of arguments and ideas. Recognize, build and appraise arguments. Identify inconsistencies and errors in reasoning. Approach problems in a consistent and systematic way. Reflect on the justification of their own assumptions, beliefs and values. In essence, critical thinking requires you to use your ability to reason. It is about being an active learner rather than a passive recipient of information. Critical thinkers rigorously question ideas and assumptions rather than accepting them at face value. They will always seek to determine whether the ideas, arguments and findings represent the entire picture and are open to finding that they do not. 6 Crucial critical thinking skills (and how you can improve them) Critical thinking is a skill that allows you to make logical and informed decisions to the best of your ability. For example, a child who has not yet developed such skills might believe the Tooth Fairy left money under their pillow based on stories their parents told them. A critical thinker, however, can quickly conclude that the existence of such a thing is probably unlikely—even if there are a few bucks under their pillow. Critical thinking is the objective analysis of facts to form a judgment.[1] The subject is complex, and several different definitions exist, which generally include the rational, skeptical, unbiased analysis, or evaluation of factual evidence. The habits of mind that characterize a person strongly disposed toward critical thinking include a desire to follow reason and evidence wherever they may lead, a systematic approach to problem solving, inquisitiveness, even-handedness, and confidence in reasoning. Critical thinking...the awakening of the intellect to the study of itself. Critical thinking can be seen as having two components: 1) a set of information and belief generating and processing skills, and 2) the habit, based on intellectual commitment, of using those skills to guide behavior. It is thus to be contrasted with: 1) the mere acquisition and retention of information alone, because it involves a particular way in which information is sought and treated; 2) the mere possession of a set of skills, because it involves the continual use of them; and 3) the mere use of those skills ("as an exercise") without acceptance of their results. Critical thinking varies according to the motivation underlying it. When grounded in selfish motives, it is often manifested in the skillful manipulation of ideas in service of one’s own, or one's groups’, vested interest. As such it is typically intellectually flawed, however pragmatically successful it might be. When grounded in fairmindedness and intellectual integrity, it is typically of a higher order intellectually, though subject to the charge of "idealism" by those habituated to its selfish use. Critical thinking of any kind is never universal in any individual; everyone is subject to episodes of undisciplined or irrational thought. Its quality is therefore typically a matter of degree and dependent on, among other things, the quality and depth of experience in a given domain of thinking or with respect to a particular class of questions. No one is a critical thinker through-and-through, but only to such-and-such a degree, with such-and-such insights and blind spots, subject to such-and-such tendencies towards self-delusion. For this reason, the development of critical thinking skills and dispositions is a life-long endeavor.

Thank you Waysider. Thank you T-Bone. And thank you Skyrider for starting this thread. Given that critical thinking is the antithesis of the Wierwille mystique, it should surprise no one, especially here at GSC, that the R&R RR is stuck in neutral. Anyone who tries to duplicate -- albeit refine and distill the organizational model back to how it was in the good old days of TWI -- has ZERO chance to establish a thriving fellowship centered on godliness. At it's core, the model of bombarding "students" with hours and hours of bible teachings, in which they ONLY are given information and expected to absorb it, can do very little critical thinking. To build churches, fellowships, and a way corpse that would actually be better described without the letter "e" in the title, would have to honor the students with the dignity of allowing them to think... critically. The approach is called, Socratic. The student is actively engaged and CHALLENGES the teacher. But if the teacher cannot cope with that kind of student, you get cults instead. Does that make sense?

And there you have it. "Oh, but (insert splinter name) is right on."

Remember that cigarette commercial............"You can take Salem out of the country but, you can't take the country out of Salem." While in college, I was studying Business Management and Marketing......and we delved into marketing techniques. How they work. What constitutes a snazzy slogan. What type of technique leaves a subliminal message that lingers. And, the "Salem commercial" was worth studying, because it encompassed all of those...........especially when the commercial ends by "You can take Salem out of the country but [Ding]...........and your mind sings, and fills in, the rest of the song diddy. THAT is what I think about the cult's pseudo-Christianity. You can keep smoking those twit-teachings, but you can't take wierwille out of those teachings!! You can leave the cult, but if you continue smoking those "rightly-divided" teachings.......you can't take wierwille out of the brand. For some 30 years, corps leadership have been leaving the cult-mothership ........yet, they STILL market the wierwille-mystique. They cannot separate Christianity from the "Wierwille-Cult Christianity"..... it's just not possible, in their minds. Wierwille is their mediator between God and man. He ushered them into the Age of Grace. It's his teachings that open the doors to understand "the word as it has not been known since the first century." He is the modern-day Apostle Paul. He is the one who found the keys to the "more abundant life." To them, wierwille is to be placed on a pedestal that is revered. Move over Jesus Christ.....there's a new man of God in town. The manifestations are a non-sequester, it seems. No one really takes them serious anymore. What a stark difference from the early-70s......when walking in power was the deal-breaker of being sincere or being genuine!! On one level......it seems, that they are simply marketing this message for ROI (return on investment). They've spend over 4 decades in promoting pfal......and now, after distancing themselves from the machinery want to call the shots and count the money. The R&R group is the latest in this endeavor. Gawd, it is so nauseating to see their pathetic pandering to the wierwille-adulation when GreaseSpot Café has been documenting this stuff for nearly 18 years. Yet, on another level..........maybe, these guys truly believe that wierwille had it going on........right doctrine, right practice, right on before God Almighty. Could it be that these guys are SO INDOCTRINATED and INSTITUTIONALIZED that they've lost all grasp of critical thinking? Just seems to me that I Timothy 3 would be enough to show gaping discrepancies of wierwille's manner of life as opposed to the Scriptures. Or, pointing out the putrid fruit of sexual predation, lock box doctrine, absent-Christ, etc........to name a few. All in all, I think it's about..... Saving Face Being Unrepentant Establishing a lane to run in during retirement Desiring to be the lead dog ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Thanks Gomer, eh I mean DWBH

Geez i had no idea that STFI was still paying Dan's salary even after he told them God gave him revelation overnight to go start his own group based on his position of continue in faith, which is opposed to what STFI teaches. So glad i never gave a penny to them and refused recruitment by Dan when he came to visit me after i left TWI. I have never regretted not getting involved with them.

btw, today's lectionary was Genesis chapter 3. My pastor gave an entirely different approach to the scripture than VPW or LCM

It’s there. Just read it.

Same goes for the condescending pfal class...... "Most people just think they think." "That guy on the other side of the English Channel.....I wouldn't waste my time on him." "Why, I've forgotten more of the Word that that guy will ever know." "People criticize the man of God......first, they don't like the tie you're wearing." Duly Noted: Wierwille was The Teacher. We were his students......and it would ALWAYS stay that way.

Yes it makes sense. You can even trace the RnR railroad by their attempts to get there. First like everyone else they reject the totalitarian rule of the Way leadership. Over the course of many years they plan an exit. They try to complain via letter and direct conversation, but they get shut down completely. So they escalate. Letter to the Way Corpse trying to drum up support. Lofty ideas about how true ministries are run by democracies. This lasts until they appear on that YouTube video that started a thread here. Then they were "marked and avoided" by JY de Loser. Now that group that went through extra suffering feels extra entitled. So they are the new leadership in the cult they split off. IMO the dictor was a master at sleight-of-hand techniques with scriptures to get people to suspend critical thinking, all while convincing them he was building critical thinking. Thus you have all these islands of misfit toys basing their lives off of the "critical thinking skills" built in PLAF. People can't get out of that mindset. They can't read commentaries for added insight, they can't hold differing opinions about Christology and discuss them over a good meal, they can't even walk in a modern church without getting twitches. I mean Way-brained theological logic almost has the same ignorant smell and taste that the Westboro Baptist church does. Hate everyone who isn't like you. Excommunicate them. Persecute them. That is the fruit. Combined with a huge ego convinced they understand scriptures like nobody else born on the planet. The Socratic method has an underlying assumption of two equals carrying on a conversation. In the Way there were seldom conversations between two equals. It was always a condescending discussion.

Great post Rocky !!!! thanks for the info / links - I never get tired of stuff on critical thinking

Hey Rocky...... I remember one of his posts stating that Taxi first took Piffle in 1995. He said it was the only time he had seen dictor’s original flick as Da Forehead had replaced it with his YouTube video of private interpretation, homophobia, misogyny, and rambling insanity before the next “class” came together in Taxi’s location. That’s how he is aware of both dictor and da forehead. Hey....a new sitcom: Dictor and Da Forehead! LOL!

Some of them lost any remnant of critical thinking they might have had... going on 50 years ago now. Do you think they could even define critical thinking if their lives depended on it?

Ah, but you were... unless you never took a class offered by TWI.

Taxi, great post!! I think that many people " hold VPW on a pedestal," because they have been taught to think that. To believe otherwise, might make them question themselves, and their moral values. I know when I started questioning what I was being taught in TWI, I realized that a lot of the teachings were garbage, and I realized I was wasting my time, and money on malarkey. After much painful soul searching, I realized I had to leave, and I did. Some people don't want to search their hearts, and minds, because of what they might find. For them, it is much easier, and perhaps safer, not to do so. If they did, they might realize that VPW was a POS, and they have wasted decades of their lives believing his lies.

I'm inclined to think it's a combination of these two lines of thought. Not within a particular individual, but among the individuals, some one way and some the other. But it's difficult to determine who goes which way. Either way, to blindly vomit out what VP vomited doesn't do good for others, or themselves. They have been continuing to hold VP on a pedestal, declaring how they loved this teaching, or that teaching, or how they miss hearing such and such. I feel fortunate that I wasn't exposed to him.

Bingo , Grace !!!! thought your post deserved it

Twinky, not only do I" think, and ponder over what I hear," but I also can disagree with others. Back in Way World, VPW's opinions were the only ones that were important. Nowadays, I can come to the GSC, and politely disagree with others. Here at the GSC, people are allowed to air their opinions. Sometimes people like my opinions, and sometimes they don't, but I am allowed to voice what is important to ME! And others are allowed the same privilege. Wow, years ago, if people disagreed with VPW, all Hell broke loose.

I don't give a f---. I'm free of that mind control and enjoy the ability to think and ponder over what I hear.

It's gotten to be that we've seen so many instances of vpw shown to have lied about things that it actually counts as news when he's found to have told the truth about something. So vpw actually went to India. It would not have shocked me terribly to find out the whole India trip was a hoax with doctored photos attached to it.

I remember wierwille saying something like that "He even said once, I believe Bullinger would have gotten to Jesus Christ is not God had he lived long enough.” – maybe it was at Advanced Class ’79. == == == == and I remember another thing he said in reference to Bullinger – maybe it was in that same setting – can’t recall his exact wording but it was something like “ you can squeeze the Word so hard that you’ll have error running out through your fingers.” there’s some sneaky things about wierwille’s somewhat derogative statement of Bullinger: - criticize and detract from one of his biggest plagiarized sources…so much for the “mathematical exactness and scientific precision” of “The Word”… - as much as wierwille twisted and mangled the interpretation of the Bible – and yet elevated himself so much above Bullinger is like Jack the Ripper saying he’s a better surgeon than any qualified medical practitioner...wierwille always had a tendency to present himself as head and shoulders above many of the people he referred to - like he was so far ahead of them in rightly dividing the Bible... and maybe even more importantly supposedly having God as his own personal tutor. I seriously doubt if wierwille could have been intellectually objective in looking at another person’s work - let alone grasping the salient points – I could be wrong but I suspect his intent to steal their work and cover his tracks was the overriding principle to thwart such "insignificant issues". I guess he figured he had more to gain by stealing and lying than by truly learning and being an honest teacher... or maybe he just misunderstood the "make it your own" idea of becoming thoroughly knowledgeable of studied material...he took that literally (< note the double entendre - includes plagiarism ) - - and put his name on it

Great information here. I was just reflecting on EW Bullinger as one of VP's most prolific source of plagiarized material. He lived December 15, 1837 – June 6, 1913 Bullinger died in 1913, meaning any plagiarism claims would have to be made by his descendants, making this highly unlikely. Also Juanita Carey, a Way person, published a biography on Bullinger. What better way to control the dialogue about his life? There was certain to be included information on the "Trinitarian Bible Society" that Bullinger was a part of most of his life so that Dic could illustrate how Bullinger "would have got to the Word he got to" if he had lived or some such nonsense. A relatively unknown Biblical scholar, a century earlier, with published works where copyright is in the public domain, not pursued by anyone. Just another ripe source for cherry picking material to cobble together a "Biblical research ministry". Truth is certainly stranger than snow-covered gas pump fiction.