Leaderboard

The title may sound crazy but it’s true. At the time I was introduced to TWI I was in to drugs and alcohol. I was using speed to wake up in the morning and downers chased with whiskey to sleep at night. I grew up in church but I saw no power there. It was more of a social gathering. I was only 23 but the drugs and alcohol were beginning to affect my heart’s rhythm. I knew I needed God in my life but didn’t know where to look. Then there was a knock on my apartment door. There stood two WOW ambassadors who had just moved into my apartment complex. I went to Twig a few times but my roommate and I had a disagreement and we both moved out. I moved back home but eventually was contacted by a Corps member and invited to twig run by MW. MW to me was an amazing teacher. We would go so deep into the Word. This was the first time I’d ever heard anything about Greek words. We talked much about SIT. I wanted that so much and never had to wait until the end of PFAL class. I wanted to go in the Way Corps. I wanted to learn and serve with my whole heart, so to get there I went WOW to Chicago in 79/80. And here is where TWI saved my life. It got me away from all the friends and influences in my life that were killing me and gave me the time to become solidly implanted in the Word. I went in residence with the 12th Corps at Emporia. I loved the experiences and have many good memories of the times with my brothers and sisters. I was assigned was a WOW family coordinator in the Oklahoma City area 81/82. I had no idea of the pain and depression that was coming my way. The first member of my WOW family left the field within two months. Another left 3 months after that. We never ran one PFAL class. I was so beat up than when a member of our twig took an interest to me I fell to the temptation. About the time to return for final year she came up pregnant. I would not go back. It wasn’t right in my heart and mind to do this to someone. I stayed in OKC and eventually married her. We had a beautiful little girl and a son 3 years later. Sadly we divorced not long after he was born. God does have a plan for our lives. There story behind how my present wife and I reconnected is good example of that, but that is a story for a later time. But she had 3 kids and I had my 2 when we married and now we have them and their spouses and 10 grandkids. Most of my kids are involved with missions work, solid in the Word of God. I have been abundantly blessed. I am happy I missed the LCM years at the helm of TWI. I know so many were hurt so badly. Even when I was in the Corps I heard accusations about sexual promiscuity from the leadership although I never witnessed anything. I suppose I was too busy working on the lawnmowers or guarding VPW’s airplane to see any of that. I was an unremarkable Schmoo that helped put money in VPW’s bank account, but to this day I would not want anything I experienced to be any different. The Lord through TWI saved my life , put my feet solidly in the Word of God to the point I have an earned Masters of Divinity, have been a college age pastor and now continue actively in ministry to older folks. This is something I’ve wanted to talk about for 40 years. It has taken the invention of the internet to allow it to happen.

I like to listen to different Bible teachers on You-tube and read books about the Bible from different scholars. There are many many people who have studied the Bible for years and have a lot to share. It now amazes me that I accepted one class as the final say on God's Word. We were programmed that we were not to consider any teachings from any other source other than VP or PFAL or the higher-ups in TWI. Blows my mind now that I look back on it. We were led to think that we were so special and we had the Truth, unlike all the other schlubs in the body of Christ who didn't have the knowledge that WE had. Oh yes, we were SO special. And I would like to add that sometimes these Bible teachers don't agree. Does that mean I have to close myself off? The worst that can happen is I have to know I don't know about something.

My point was that “incorruptible” is referring to the word of God and not to salvation...as perhaps a tangent of this idea - you might want to consider the context of I Peter - being born again to a living hope and called to a holy life...and you might want to consider some alternate interpretations of Genesis 3 people created in God’s image and what died in the Fall...Hebrew thought on death was that of a separation - physical death = life force separated from the body and then there is spiritual death = our spiritual nature being separated from God...in other words I believe the soul is immortal - when one speaks of going to heaven I understand that to refer to the soul’s eternal state...the 2nd death referred to in the Bible would then mean one’s soul is eternally separated from God... So to be born again - could mean to have the connection restored - one who was spiritually dead ( separated from God) - is now alive to pursue a holy calling. This is all just my opinion, of course Sorry for straying off topic and getting into some tangents - but I think in trying to understand a passage - we may have to back up and see how things fit in the bigger picture.

Poltergeist !

Totally incongruous, the one with the other. Those who are recovering from what vpw/lcm did Those who are self-appointing themselves as leaders over another splinter group Admittedly, you claim that there are people recovering from what vpw or lcm did to them. Don't Moneyhands, Forts, Horneys, Sheldons, and others fall into that category? Moneyhands has been a part of the twit-cult since 1969......and the Forts, since like 1972. Wouldn't they need to have some "recover time" to figure things out? Instead, they are jumping head-long into the water and "teaching the word to others" ........albeit, skewed doctrine. Apples and oranges, Taxidev. One is not the same as the other. Even though I held many leadership positions [State, Country Coordinator and clergy]........I haven't started any splinter group. LOL. These guys are opportunists and I have been generous in my assessment. There is plenty more that I could say about them. You obviously have "a dog in this fight"........and come to their defense time and again. You claim to have this absolute integrity for the Word, yet you fail to see the wolves in sheep's clothing, the deceivers, and the prideful. You might want to read those scriptures that tell us to eschew every appearance of evil. These guys were the campus leaders when wierwille/martindale parked their motor coaches out back [or used cabin 12 in Camp Gunnison] and had girls escorted to them late at night. Yet, they still give adulation to wierwille !!! And now, they start their own splinter group............the blind leading the blind and falling in the ditch. ;

It's a figure of speech. He's in a prison of his own making between his ears.

yeah in PFAL – didn’t wierwille say something along the lines of if you could do that it meant you’re going to heaven and all hell can’t stop you from going...well, he lived like the devil so he certainly practiced what he preached.

Yeah, LCM is in prison - with his Bible with the hand-turned pages. Much good that did him. FRAUDS the frikin lot of 'em.

I am adding my own OPINION when I say "we should WANT TO walk in love." I explained WHY we should want to. (It pleases God, and it's the right thing to do-which is why is pleases God.) I thought this was actually beyond dispute and that Christians would stipulate to that without an argument. (No, we shouldn't, no it does not please God, no, it's not the right thing to do...) I made that clear by not putting my OPINION in quotation marks. Really, junior high school English rules should make that clear. ============================== As for Bullinger and definitions of "other" and "another", he's defined "heteros" and "allos" completely differently in 2 ways. A) "Heteros" means "another of a different kind" and "allos" means "another of the same kind." This is consistent through the Bible. (One usage is in Galatians 1, the warning against being drawn to "another gospel which is not another". "Another/heteros gospel which is not another/allo", or "a different gospel with is not of the same kind", which sounds redundant when rendered plainly. Then again, if you accept "pleonasm" as a legitimate figure of speech as Bullinger did, that's just fine.) The other usage was to say one was "another when there are exactly two" and the other was "another where there are more than two." That actually is not used consistently in Scripture, and that was pointed out here, long ago. (Someone said that the mention of cheeks should obviously refer to two since a person has exactly two, but the Greek word used was the other, and so on.) I haven't looked into that one for something like 20 years because that definition seemed both INCORRECT and SUPERFLUOUS. The usage of "same kind" and "different kind" was consistent, sensible, and easy to demonstrate. So, in other words, I say Bullinger was correct in his OTHER (heteros, different) definition, and not in this one. Since the definitions contradicted each other, it seems evident at as many as one could be correct (both could have been wrong, or one could have been wrong, but since they contradict, they couldn't both be right.) ================================== There's this thing that's actually pretty common among ex-twi splinter leaders. It's a false bifurcation that's based on over-compensation. They take one extreme position on something, see that there's problems with that extreme position, so they conclude that the polar opposite position must be true, and skip over the problems with that extreme position. We saw that when Geer attempted to reconcile God's Love and God's Omnipotence with the continued existence of evil. (This is a very old question, and smarter men than him have hit the reefs on it.) Time Magazine addressed this same problem once as their cover story. They claimed that any TWO of those could operate together, but that all 3 could not. If God was Omnipotent and evil existed, He wouldn't be Love because He'd be fine with evil existing. And so on. Geer decided that the issue could be decided by rejecting God's Omnipotence. Specifically, he rejected God's Omniscience, His "All-Knowingness", if you please. He imposed that explanation on Scripture, and mangled Genesis 3 to claim it supported his assertion when it actually did the opposite. In this case, the problem was looking at vpw's proclaimed grotesque position that- once one is saved, one can sin with impunity without any significant consequences and God would just let it go because you have Eternal life and Incorruptible seed. Well, the seed won't corrupt, the life won't end, but that's hardly the same as saying there will be no consequences. I'm confident there will be severe consequences but that they won't end eternal life or rot incorruptible seed. If you like, we can get into this in a Doctrinal thread. Personally, I think it doesn't matter because of the results. If I'm planning on backstabbing God, the actual consequences won't scare me into a turnaround. And if I don't, then it doesn't matter what the penalty would be for doing so. (I don't care about the legal penalty for counterfeiting because I have no plans to ever counterfeit.) In other words, no, I don't think that we have "a guaranteed place in Heaven." I think we have "eternal life" and "incorruptible seed". None of that guarantees "Heaven." That was what vpw referred to (incorrectly) as "private interpretation" no matter how many people taught that in twi.

I know I know I know I know. The Gideons Leaving Bibles in Motel 6 nightstands across America. And smuggling them into countries where they are risking their lives. They are truly moving the Word

Thanks DWBH.... Yes, TWIt and its offshoots hate this site. None of them have a site where open thought, discussion and questions are in public view. And lately, here at GSC......there has been many new posters coming to this site. Some are second generation kids who were raised in twi and are now grappling with the aftermath of this evolving cult that has consumed their wayfaring parents and relatives. Adding to this complexity are the dozens upon dozens of offshoots with their books and classes claiming that THEY hold the spiritual mantle of truth. Stop the merry-go-round.........and let's take a walk. In the late 60's, several factors emerged that contributed to the rise of cult leaders and those attracted to cults (lifestyle and doctrine). The socio-dynamic of church involvement was changing rapidly. The counterculture of the 60s was a diaspora into the '70s. Technology was advancing......pfal filmed on 16mm, then VHS-format Displaced youth.......searching for meaning, acceptance, belonging Note: One generation of displaced youth propelled twi forward to the cult that it is today. Wierwille cut ties with his Van Wert Church in 1957.......to follow in the steps of many elders, and contemporaries, who traveled across the country teaching at retreats and church-related seminars. Some of the men on this list and the year that wierwille encountered them: E. Stanley Jones (1944), Rufus Moseley (1946), Perry Hayden (1946), Glenn Clark (1948), J.E. Stiles (1951), Starr Daily (1952), and B.G. Leonard (1953). For thirteen (13) years, wierwille was taking notes and gleaning from their ministries......all while he was on Van Wert Church payroll. And, it seems apparent........that Leonard's foundational class in 1953 is what spurred the impetus of wierwille to, finally, break from the denominational structure. From 1958-1967, wierwille taught live pfal classes and Mal George helped teach a handful of them. Going into their tenth year........and the results were miniscule. Nearly 80% of students from all those classes never committed to The Way, Inc. The strategy of reaching church-people "with the word" was a bust......wierwille's independent undertaking was barely paying the bills. And, the BRC was a non-descript rural building with no church bells or steeple........and very few people. So, wierwille threw caution to the wind in 1967.......and stared into intense, glaring lights to teach and film a 36-hour class. Strapped for cash, time and "borrowed" furniture, wierwille was under immense pressure to get this class filmed in an allotted time frame. Crazy as all this was......the confluence of technology, the counterculture hippie movement, and displaced youth provided a wave of interest, excitement and involvement to wierwille's rogue underpinnings. Youth leaders and guitar singers bridged the gap between homiletics and hippies........and the displaced youth soon found a place in an Ohio commune. Note: One generation of youth leaders and guitar singers bridged the gap between homiletics, hippies and holy spirit. Wierwille NEEDED the youth far more than they needed him or his teachings. He exploited their involvement and their vulnerabilities. Many young leaders came and left.......but their zealous involvement and connections brought waves upon waves of other displaced youth longing for belonging. And, even though the zero corps was shut down....... those corps from 1-5 went forward with ten years of solid commitment......AND THAT CHANGED EVERYTHING. In their zeal, WOWs beget more WOWs......and corps beget more corps. The *youth factor* was the driving force of the movement.......not wierwille. And, those early years (1968-1974) at headquarters would infiltrate the minds of scores upon scores of corps grads to follow. The displaced youth had found their "family".......and a place to call home. As headquarters grew into a full-fledged compound......it became self-contained. You didn't need to go anywhere, for anything.......except beer and wine. Heck, even George Jess wine was known to be available to a select few. Hardly needed to leave grounds...... Three square meals a day...... Snack shop......and grilled burgers after meetings In-house entertainment.........indoor/outdoor, bands, dancing, fun Personal services.........haircuts, laundry, taxes, dentist at Indiana Campus Car services.......help with repairs / barter services Who needed much money?........many lived on-grounds and walked to work Note: One generation stayed so long......that they started having babies. Corps were graduating year after year and getting married. By 1976, a second generation of "cult-babies" are being pushed around in strollers. No, it wasn't many at first.......but six years later, by 1982.......babies and strollers were everywhere at corps week and roa. And, why not......the youth had "found a home." The displaced youth had moved from transition and were transferring these perceptions and identities to this pseudo-family. Wierwille addressed aspects of "this place is your home" on many a night owl. I knew many who considered Mrs. Wierwille as the mother that they never had, or knew. Others, whose father or mother died prematurely, took refuge in this "Uncle Harry Nostalgia" and was furthered when the Corps Chalet was being built.......that corps could stay for a couple days whenever they were passing by. Not only the commune lifestyle, but the doctrine.........I remember several times when wierwille taught about ownership versus stewardship. Why do you need to OWN things?.....wierwille claimed. It only slows you down, burdens you with the world. It's far better to have access of the ministry's stuff, than to own something yourself. Here you get to enjoy the way woods, the house of his healing presence, and all......without the expense and maintenance of it. All those years of evolving rhetoric......1) Burn the Ballast, 2) Burn the Chaff, to 3) Uncle Harry Day. Get rid of anything that is holding you back.......record albums, yearbooks, instruments, trinkets/jewelry, worldly books, family heirlooms and keepsakes, etc. Each year, around March 17th..... the communal fire at headquarters would roar as we rationalized the process and felt heavy guilt to obey. The manufactured doctrine and lifestyle was set ablaze......until 1985, when the death of the man and his fire ceased. What started out as a search for meaning, acceptance and belonging..........yielded years of detours, dead-ends and blind alleys. So, yeah........there's a lot to unpack from these cult travels. .