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I’ve become so jaded of TWI’s usage of “The Word”: Moving the Word The Word in Business The Word in Music etcetera, etcetera it all was about moving a product As well as other phrases like the Word of God is the Will of God – especially with the tag line it means what it says and says what it means… Those sneaky self-assuming hypocrites ! what really turns me off about it – is that it sounds so authoritative – “The Word” – like an “in-the-beginning-was-the-Word” type of thing – it sounds so official…definitive…trustworthy…approved…authorized …but if you look past all the smoke and mirrors, what it all boiled down to was really just wierwille’s word on the matter…he didn't know squat about the biblical languages...lied about his credentials...plagiarized like it was going out of style...if his teaching of "the word" was so great - if it was indeed the rightly divided word - it should be able to stand up to some scrutiny - and it can't - it fails miserably ! and it didn't take a bunch of super-smart Bible scholars to blow him out of the water - just some simple questions forwarded by dissatisfied "customers" who experienced repeated failures of the product. and I think he mastered the fine art of bull$hit origami – he could fold and twist scripture into whatever shape he wanted to…make it say whatever he wanted “oh yeah, the word of god is the will of god – it means what it says and says what it means - - but class, you also have to remember the context, to whom it is addressed, what administration we’re dealing with, the law of believing, how spiritually advanced you are, all the chicks in the kingdom belong to the king, unto the pure all things are pure, as long as you love god and love your neighbor’s wife – ahem – I mean, love your neighbor, you can do as you full well please…so class, in I Corinthians 6 where it talks about adultery – it means spiritual adultery – not physical adultery. That’s where you’re shacking up with other gods…so you see the word means what it says and says what it means… unless I tell you otherwise…that’s why you should master my Blue Book VP Tells Me So”. For me "moving the word" in the context of TWI and offshoots really means promoting wierwille’s twisted doctrine and practice…that has about as much authority as a bowel movement…same old $hit, different toilet...this has all been just my opinion, of course.

Adam was right there with her. She wasn’t alone in the deception and disobedience. He wasn’t off somewhere not knowing what was going on. It was a “team effort”.

So recently in discussion with the RnR railroad folks, we have learned that they are "moving the Word". However, we here at GSC are not "moving the Word". I honestly have not thought about that particular phrase in a long time. I do remember it being quite the topic of conversation when we were filling out Jehovah's Witness style "outreach plans" to turn in to our "overseers". Ah, the life of "moving the Word" through the diligent application of the Vision and Direction document. The only thing Biblically I can relate that to reflecting back is the children of Israel in Exodus 5:7 when they told the slave masters to no longer give them straw to make bricks, but they had to find their own straw. It's like a volunteer no base full commission sales job. Without the pay. Why wouldn't people want to "move the Word"? So, time for a litmus test. What is moving the Word to you? True vs False Cult vs Genuine God vs Man Help me out here 'Spotters. I want to be "moving the Word". It sounds so cool. Any advice?

Ok. My initial point here is salvation cannot be lost. If a man sows to the flesh, the old man nature, that man will reap the consequences of his actions - both now and loss of reward at the gathering together. Rejecting God is covered by the blood of Christ. Here we go! Btw Taxidev, thanks for posting here. Im at a point where i am saying Dan is wrong, but Im learning much from the topic. Thanks!

I started a new thread titled "Can salvation be lost? in the doctrinal forum to address this matter. It seems to me, that might be a better place to continue the discussion. Also, feel free to re-title the thread if you feel it's not correctly phrased.

A) Ephesians says nothing about salvation being dependent upon us walking in love. It says to walk in love. It doesn't say "walk in love OR ELSE..." We should WANT TO walk in love because it pleases God AND because it's the right thing to do (which is why it pleases God.) B) One of the great problems of twi survivors is this dependency on a version of the Bible that's 450 years old. This introduces 2 problems: 1) It doesn't correct various corrections that were made in the last 450 years (most weren't retro-fitted into the KJV, although a few were.) 2) The archaic language suits those of us who read Shakespeare for fun, but for the rest, relying on Elizabethan English and not modern words leads to MISUNDERSTANDINGS and MISCOMMUNICATIONS. vpw made a lot of bank on some of those, and exploited them. (Example: A page of explanation on "replenish" being used rather than "fill"- when the non-English texts translated INTO the KJV said "fill".) In this case, "creature" is not understood they way it would have been understood by Shakespeare or any of his contemporaries. It means, in simple modern English, "created thing." The sentence is making a very big point, and builds up to it somewhat from big to GIGANTIC. "I am convinced that neither what's dead, nor what's alive, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor the things that EXIST, nor the things that DON'T EXIST YET, nor height, nor depth, nor ANY OTHER THING IN CREATION, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." I agree with Paul here. I'm also convinced, but I can only speak for myself here. I obviously don't speak for Dan. We count as "created things". things in creation. So, we can't separate ourselves from the love of God either.

Can you top this? East China has a printing company that is moving more Bibles down the production line than any one else in the world Big printer of Bibles with order of 6 or more you get words of Christ in red.

Good stuff, Taxidev ! I love the book of Romans! I tend to think of salvation as almost like a journey...a journey of faith...in my opinion wierwille taught followers to focus almost exclusively on grace - God’s work accomplished through what Christ did for us - that tunnel-vision of focus more or less ignored what God EXPECTED of those who accepted God’s invitation of grace. Maybe slightly off topic - but along the same lines of what is expected of someone who may think they are “gifted” - remember this gem: “to whom much has been given, much is required” - I’m thinking about some folks i knew in TWI that aspired to a position of leadership - with an air of superiority about themselves, who seemed to cherish a title and the recognition and seemed most comfortable leading from an armchair rather than by example...I think their idea of service is to delegate rather than demonstrate ...I think the Bible is pretty clear on what is expected of Christian leaders - and it’s mostly about serving others. The “process” of realizing our salvation is perhaps a lifetime effort. Romans 4 talks of the works of the law and James 2 speaks of the works of faith. We are NOT saved / justified etc. by the works of the law but we demonstrate our salvation / justification etc. by works of faith. Matthew 3:8 and Acts 26:20 speak of Christians bringing forth fruit that demonstrates repentance. So rather than me focusing on the idea that I am a farmer or gardener and being intent on keeping up with the latest fashion in bib-overalls - I think if farming / gardening were truly in my blood, I’d be out there in the field intently working on producing some fruit. All this is just my opinion, of course.

I understand your point. I think you don't understand mine, or Dan's. I was looking into this very principle from a few years ago, and my questioning the concept of salvation as "once saved always saved" began when I carefully read this section: Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. What prompted me to carefully read it was, what I consider, and erroneous teaching by VPW that Paul shifted gears in Romans from speaking to the believers to speaking to the unbelievers. That, in my mind, was ridiculous. Continuing in His goodness, obviously to me, means walking in Love, as we are told in Eph 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us... Do you consider that works? Because that is definitely a modus operandi, the one we are supposed to be adhering to. This brought about a different understanding for me of this section: Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. That phrase, "any other creature" is indicative of any other creature than myself. Well, I can't find anywhere that states that I can't screw it up for myself. While I am not 100% convinced, I was quite interested to see what Dan had found when looking into this very topic. And I am still looking into it, and speaking with those who I respect with regard to their understanding of the Word.

With sleight of hand, wierwille instituted buzzwords, clichés and phrases that fueled the engine of the cult machinery. The splinter groups will NEVER get it right, because they start with the premise that wierwille's "foundation" was solid........and therefore, keep the foundation that wierwille devised. Yet, it was built on cult-sand........and will never stand in the presence of God. Imo, the whole cult experience was skewed and twisted. When you read the gospels and how Jesus loved and comforted, you see The Great Shepherd of the sheep. He cared for them, and their burdens and wounds....and fought off the wolves. Others are hirelings.....only looking out for themselves and self-opportunities. Could someone show me where, in the gospels, Jesus instructed us to go "move the word?" Sure, preach the word unto all the nations.......but "move the word?" And, we all know the implication from wierwille's cult was..........to run pfal classes. And, it's going to be very interesting to see how these EX-corps coordinators proceed forward. They were the drill sergeants of the way corps program. If corps were not obedient, these leaders who go ballistic yelling in a nanosecond. With these three corps coordinator couples in this offshoot......it's like having 6 John Lynns in one room!

So if the Word is like Jesus in the flesh, and we are "moving the Word" does that also mean we are moving Jesus around? Why? I thought he had this miraculous new body where he could "beam himself up Scotty" like in Star Trek. He's got much better mobility than me. Random thoughts on "moving the Word".