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That wasn't hateful at all. You must not get around messageboards that much! For the internet, that was nothing, and for conversation, it wouldn't have been considered "hateful", It's also not "presumptuous" at all because these people's lives are well-known at the general level- and lots of people here knew them personally, so that's not all guesswork but conclusions drawn from the evidence at hand. We don't know what's in their minds and hearts- but we know what they did, when they did it, what they didn't do, and when they chose to refrain from speaking or acting. Based on that, you know what matters to a person. If there's some hidden reflection that didn't impact their actions, it didn't matter MUCH to them, and so I'm ok not counting it as significant. We don't have "an ax to grind"- but we can call people on what we see them say and do. And if you think this is "spewing venom", you need to get around a bit more. Heck, we can show you some posts from some vpw defenders and apologists, archived around here. The difference is dramatic.

Hi Taxidev! You posted this: “As I indicated earlier, I have no idea what it's like to live through this level of atrocities. I just pray that you can all become peaceful about it, whether you actually forgive them or not. At least to have peace in yourselves.” Why TY Taxidev. Don’t pray for my peace! In the words of a dear old friend of mine from the 4th Corpse who is no longer living, “I got Peace like a river! Like a river baby!” You sound like one of the 2 responders you quoted on an earlier post. LOL! I was “peaceful about it” the instant I turned off of wierwille road onto Highway 29 and got the hell outta there on December 14, 1986! And, my peace has grown greater DAILY since then regardless of what “trials and tribulations” I may have undergone since that day. That is true partly because, DAILY I KNOW WITHOUT ANY DOUBT, that I did the “rightest” thing I ever did in my life for Jesus Christ. The ones you need to pray for are the anti-Christ pimps, whose “virtues” you seem to extol. First, pray they stop LYING and genuinely REPENT before God, Jesus Christ, and the Church, AFTER they have apologized to and sought forgiveness from their VICTIMS. VICTIMS!! Victims of TWIt “clergy”! Do YOU get that? Or, are you too busy praying for my peacefulness? I’LL FORGIVE THEM WHEN THEY HONESTLY REPENT! THEY HAVE YET TO DO SO! Do you get that Taxidev?? This has never been about vindictiveness Taxidev. This has ALWAYS been about JUSTICE! God’s justice, and HE IS THE GOD OF JUSTICE! I just pray that YOU can see beyond their seared consciences and the fair words and fancy speeches they dump all over those they lie in wait to deceive, whether YOU actually believe them or not. At least to understand GOD’S JUSTICE! Maybe that will open YOUR eyes to their habitual hubris, lies, and rule of injustice? At least to have a sense of what God’s Justice means. We’ll see, Taxidev.....we’ll see. Meanwhile, please don’t waste any more of your prayer time for me. I got peace like a river baby!!!..................peace.

Times like this, evaluating a repeating pattern of "sincerity" and later broken promises, I am reminded of a song (a tango) by Celedonio Nicanor Compagnucci, "You've Cheated Me Again," ("Argentine tango, the sad song of the abandoned man.") "You've made a thousand promises of a future without fetter. That everything would change, that our love would be better. You made great plans, that any other love would be absurd. Ours would be the best ever heard, this time you'd keep your word. A word sticks in my throat: 'Why? Why?' If nothing has changed, Why did I give you my vote?"

Hahahahaha! You think I have an ax to grind? I'm puzzled why you would think this. Here's the skinny: These guys have been doing this stuff for 40-50 years. Now, as the sun is starting to fade on us all, they have realized they need to see some kind of return on all that time and effort they've invested. That's not hate , presumption or venom. It's a simple observation. You don't need to know what's going on in someone's heart or mind to understand that reflecting on past efforts is something we all do, TWI and non-TWI alike. I do agree with you, though...spewing venom is seldom a good thing.

I know less than that - only what those here have posted. Also I looked at the Facebook group again and the website domain they registered. It seems that there are many crossover members of that group that are actively in the Way also. I'm not the searcher of hearts but I'm not going to ignore the elevated tone they took in their posting on that Facebook group quoted here, nor their elevation of themselves in stature and position, nor their response to queries made to them through you. That is clear evident fruit that Jesus instructs me to know people by. They have no fruit worthy of any of my attention - their little pretend spiritual coup takeover of the Way failed, which was designed to draw followers away anyway not really designed to Revive and Restore. Their expectations were that the Board of Pharisees would immediately see the light and change the Way over to now being ruled by democracy different than it had been governed since inception? That's not something a reasonable person would expect. So it is just a front for a coup - leaving, making the biggest splash and impact, drawing the most followers away so their kids can have a safe haven in a new cult. I doubt they will honestly disclose anything of the sort in their pious platitudes and Sunday teachings and sweeping of old things under carpets.

Apologies if this is in the wrong forum, but i don't want the aggression of About The Way, and it's not really Open, either. So: what is “Christian leadership”? We have a Corps principle that says we should “go forth as leaders and workers in areas of concern, interest and need,” which is in itself a good principle, but it was twisted to suit TWI’s concerns, interests, and greed. We have the R&R bunch who’ve set themselves up as “leaders” of some other sort of TWI-clone. As to Biblical suggestions, there are some qualities listed in 1 Tim 3, regarding “bishops” or “overseers” and “deacons,” which I’m including here because if I don’t include it, someone else will post it.

Since it belongs more on this thread than on the Ted Talk thread, I thought I'd copy in what Don'tWorryBeHappy said about an hour ago on that TT thread:

Love it! We have our own gravedigger (maybe ex-gravedigger?), who knows where the bodies are buried. Go for it, DWBH. I didn't know any of the stuff you posted about. You know stuff about some of the others, too, I think. Allan, who posts here occasionally, can tell you his own tales about the Str1cklands, co-signatories to the T&T letter. Allan knows rather a lot about the Str1cklands.

Agreed, though maybe not so much with the "just posturing" aspect of it. 'Cause from the pulpit it can be (and is incessantly) used by so many as a means of control - which goes far beyond making your own self look more knowledgeable or spiritual. Furthermore, I'm of the opinion that unless (or until) it's known or understood or beyond the limitations of personal reward(s), it all too easily results in works that are mere wood, hay and/or stubble - not to mention the small sliver of uncertainty that can rear its ugly head at the most awkward, stressful or otherwise inopportune times in life. In other words, once we are Christ's, the life we live now is not for ourselves - in any sense of the word (future inclusive) - even if we don't know or believe it.

We keep seeing this pattern repeat, but THIS TIME the people who left are sincere and did it for godly reasons....

I don't doubt you one bit about this local group. I don't doubt DWBH and others about the R&R originators, either. If you're seeing great blessings locally and deliverance and healings or something (or some combinations along those lines), then that's what you're experiencing, and small wonder you'd stick around for that. On the other hand, there's some people who saw lots of blessings locally- until HQ tightened the reins some time later. That story's repeated itself in twi over, and over, and over. If I were directly connected with any splinter group, regardless of the blessings, I'd keep an eye out for the temperature knob for the stove. Sooner or later, someone is going to try to raise the temperature on the pot, and figure that- if it's done slowly enough- the frog won't notice the difference and won't jump clear, and will roast in the pot instead. These people had decades of training and experience in just that, and were fine with it for decades. So, for me, the questions are "What will they do?" and "When will they do it?" not "Will they do something?" To me, it's obvious that forming R&R was a step IN doing something FOR THEM. I'm waiting to hear about their other steps

So despite the poster who took this as 'spewing venom', isn't this just a statement of fact? I mean maybe the slang and spin seems to indicate motive, but this is pretty much exactly disclosing what I believe Brian Moneyhands told someone about them planning an exodus maybe 4 years ago? All of those top couples - and others were blackballed from top leadership positions by the Way prior to their exodus because of things in "their own file" or whatever - their past. They weren't on the path to director positions so they split off and started their own deal. I believe what many posters here are pointing out is that they come off as a little inauthentic in what they brought up. Specifically, if you look at their "demands" in the letter they sent to the BOD, they escalated the situation. There could have been confrontation according to the verses they quoted in Matt, Tim without the ultimatums they stated in the letter, of certain personnel stepping down, of the leadership of the ministry moving to democracy. But because they made the ultimatums and sent copies to all the Way Corps, they forced the hand of the BOD into a seeming 2 choices - step down, or ex-communicate. I mean I guess the BOD could have just ignored the letter. I'm sure there are many active Corpse in the Way now who may have similar sentiments to that above posted, and be looking for an escape themselves. Many I've known are fine with the hypocrisy and dichotomy until it impacts them in their retirement or their children's education or something close to home. Then they leave. I personally looking back upon my decision to leave am glad I did. I'm not getting any younger, and my kids need a future too.

It’s probably just my jaded view of The Way International and offshoots talking here – but I think a lot of folks are just wasting their time – though I bet some are having fun pretending to be doing something of biblical significance. I can’t take any of these folks seriously if they can’t come clean on their roots – i.e. repentance!... Where did they learn to interpret the Bible and who conferred on them a title? If it leads back to wierwille – I’ve got a problem with that…but maybe that’s just me...I think the Bible is pretty consistent on how important it is to expose erroneous doctrine and practice...but maybe that's just me, i dunno... "fans" of offshoots need to consider the details of Luke 3 on repentance, II Corinthians 7 on repentance and clearing oneself, and Matthew 18 on biblical conflict resolution Having been burned quite a few times by phonies and liars, I’ve come to the conclusion the best way to deal with religious phonies and liars is to ignore them. Maybe they should focus more on working an honest, legal job and spend less time feeding a life-sucking “hobby”. Woe unto those who buy into their soft-sell marketing. oh yeah, wanted to add a word of caution to any wannabes with good intentions - buyer beware!

Oh yes I do Taxidev! I KNOW what they are guilty of as well as THEY do. I KNOW they have yet to repent, as that is also evidenced every time they open their lying mouths. Evidenced! Funny you should choose that word. The Lord taught that we are to know them by their fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth bad fruit, and a bad tree can’t bring forth good fruit! Again, as EVIDENCED over the last 45 years, their words and their fruit remain unchanged.....rotten. It’s not a matter of who knows whom “better”. It is a matter of EVIDENCE alright......good fruit vs bad fruit. Fine with me if you choose to change what Jesus Christ taught. None of it was “to you” anyway, right? If you prefer anecdotal evidence over the evidence both God and His Son declare is the way to discern the authenticity of the behavior and actions of your “leaders”....i.e......production of good spiritual FRUIT....so be it. Your choice. Thank God for free will. I choose not to allow anecdotal evidence to determine “the accuracy” of God’s Word. I’d rather do it the way God says to than to do it the way Removal and Relocation says to! ”You don't know these people. You don't see what happens when we are together. I'm telling you what has been happening, and you talk about believing? Belief has nothing to do with it - it is evidenced.” Oh really? So I guess they’ve RE-written their “law of believing”, eh? Belef “has nothing to do with it”?? Then why would you care at all what the hell they believe? LOL! Again, Jesus Christ taught, “By their fruit shall ye know them”, not by your experiences with them.. Have you ever heard, “Experience is no guarantee of truth”? I could not care less “what happens when you’re together”. Nice stoh-rees, but no guarantee of truth. I’d rather experience the presence of their absent Jesus, than whatever happenings go on in their living rooms. I do appreciate your time and effort to tell us the current “happenings” with Removal and Relocation in your area. It IS current, first-hand information regarding your experiences, AND, it is also evidence that they have not learned or changed a damn thing. Please post again when they have actually repented of their sins and their criminal behavior against The Body of Christ. Thanks again Taxidev.............peace.

My post is more doctrinal, but I just can't resist posting. IMHO, just how good, is good enough? What sins did Jesus not cover under the cross? My antenna's go up when I hear this kind of stuff, because I know I'm a no good stinky sinner and I need a savior. Under the old covenant, the law was made to show that we cannot keep it. If I break one law I break them all. There is this talk show lady, June Hunt, who asks people when they call in for advice. "Are you a GENUINE Christian?" She means that if they are still actively sinning in some area, sex, alcohol, drugs, whatever...they can't possibly be born again. Christians twist things to say that of course we are saved by grace, but if we really are saved, we wouldn't be sinning "as much" anymore. Well, I have to call BS on that. People are only fooling themselves. If anybody has a problem with seeing sin in themselves, just ask somebody else. They'll be able to point out what you can't see as clearly as they can. The Holy Spirit is sinless in us, and that's what God sees when He looks at us.

I don't spend much time searching the scriptures these days... but in 1986, 32 years ago this month, I graduated from college with a degree in Accounting. During my senior year, still involved in twi, I thought a lot about accountability as practiced in that cult. It very much occurred to me that twi was doing it bass-ackwards from how they did it in the Book of the Acts of the Apostles. While Twinky has a good point about everybody being accountable, at that time it was like a neon sign flashing all alone on an otherwise dark street at midnight for me that neither Wierwille nor Martindale nor anyone else making any policy in the group was being accountable to the people who supported them. Servant leaders emulate Jesus Christ by (at least in attitude) washing the feet of those to whom they minister. Wierwille and Martindale expected the leaves on the tree to kiss their asses, buy them gifts and do them sexual favors. Do the leaders of the R & R RR conduct themselves like servant leaders?

Okay, seems you want to go there, so let's talk about Paul for a sec or two. Consider this, if you will. As for touching the righteousness which is in the law, he declared (see Phil.3:6) that he was blameless. That was before his experience on the road to Damascus. But get this... how much value did he place on that afterwards? Well, I suppose how ever much dung is worth. (Phil.3:8.) Now... which of these modern day, look-at-me-I'm-like-Paul folks do you suppose can honestly say that they were (in their former days) blameless (by any standard or stretch of the imagination), and/or is currently willing (much less disposed) to count much (if any) of their former life as dung? Kindly let me know what your thoughts are after you chew that over a little...

It would be appropriate for this R&R bunch to show us their faith by their deeds. Not by their words, of which there are many. But by their acts of selfless kindness, compassion, and genuine service to those who can respond only with a word of thanks (and maybe not even that). Let them do that for a few years. Then perhaps they will have something to say that's worth listening to.

Maintaining accountability ... Yes, everyone was accountable to some supposed higher level - branch, limb, etc - but the BoT (as it was when I was around), or BoD nowadays, didn't consider itself accountabe to anyone or anything. They accounted for none of their actions, for none of the consequences of any words or "doctrine," and not for the money given to them in trust. I love that churches I know of here have a proper structure and no one is left unaccountable. That also means that leaders, vicars, etc, aren't left feeling either Godlike in power, nor, conversely, unsupported by those they serve. There's a lot to be said for accountability and orderliness.