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I think waysider has touched upon the real underlying problem with plagiarism. It allows someone who has a middle school grasp of a topic to produce a book that shows himself to be an authority on the topic. The lack of effort in the middle to make a subject one's own, to master it. That is what is missing from VP's life. He always took the shortcut in that area. Whether it was checking into a motel by himself for 10 days eating only grapes while he "had all over 350 verses on holy spirit" in his mind, he did a great impression of what the Catholic scribes must have done before the printing press to get a copy of the scriptures. The only elbow grease VP put into the holy spirit field was the effort he put in that motel transcribing copy. So like most topics, VP may have had an outline, but he didn't master the subject. J.E. Stiles did master the topic. You know how I know? Because it was he who actually had the ability, once VP was doing his antics on stage for the Oral Roberts evangelism tent meeting to sort all that out and get VP to the point where he himself was convinced about what he was doing in his private prayer life. No, VP plagiarized, lifted, swindled, stole, the vast majority of all of his works. The better written works, JCPS and JCOP - coming up on Easter now - were not researched or written by VP at all. For a relatively short period of time in the Way's history, during the time VP published those books with his name solely on the cover, VP employed several people in a research department who did that work for him. He mostly ruined their lives. Actually if you would like a good read, Mike, I would suggest picking up a copy of the book "Undertow" which speaks of that - written by spotter penworks - Charlene Edge, an author who posts here. This gives a firsthand account of Way research at the source. No, VP was one who showed the character of sliding through life on others accomplishments, all while projecting himself as the hardest working German farmer around. Others research, brothers money, correspondence course doctoral degree, young women's beauty and sexual attraction, you name it and Vic was a user and exploited it. The conversation that is going on now seems to be one debating the topic of who actually owns the copyright to the equivalent of the angel Moroni's transcribed tablets. Vic wasn't even imaginative enough to come up with a skeptical story like that. He even had to have his conspiracy theories piped into him from some other source.

Mike: I'm beginning to know just a bit about you by now. Perhaps the following may not be true concerning your entire life, but to me (concerning this topic of plagiarism by VP) you seem to fit the bill here: Prov 26:16 --- "The sluggard is wiser in his own conceit than seven men that can render a reason." Obviously (and as you've said many times before) your mind is already made up on this matter. So to justify it in your mind, you've woven a rather intricate web of deceit which (perhaps unwittingly, to be kind) you've tangled yourself in. And within that sphere is where you've developed an uncanny ability to come up with an answer (logical or not) for everything concerning this matter --- that you may maintain your present position. Perhaps it might be a good idea for you to read the comparison between Wierwille's and Stiles' work on holy spirit. And (if you would be so kind) tell the forum whether or not it's plain to you that VP did copy Stiles' work. Here's the link again: Read it! http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/vp_stiles.htm

Hey spotters. Cool stuff. The black hole / white dwarf stuff may seem like it is on the outskirts of imagination, but just reading through this thread it is pretty powerful. I really never thought about the gravitational pull of a narcissist that much before, but it is very real. Many of your top leaders in business are this way - reportedly Steve Jobs from Apple and Larry Ellison from Oracle are two more modern or recently modern examples. You really would have to categorize all Way Presidents in this fashion also. Groomed and bred with a low concern for others welfare and a high concern for the importance of their own position, they were raised to exploit. I think it is really interesting to consider the gravitational pull of a black hole on personal relationships too, like TBone talking about spousal relationships. Definitely friendships too. DWBH - I also never fully appreciated the implications of the Way Tree having its origins in AA. If you think about it, that kind of sums up the outreach efforts and strategy for the Way - the Way tree teachings and the Vision and Direction document that surrounds it. That is all based in AA - helping recovering alcoholics. Keeping people in a disease for life, producing works to show deliverance, meeting attendance required, managed, monitored. The Lord Jesus Christ is once again, remarkably absent. So many angles of realistic evaluation and comparison for our past experiences. And to me all of it is another positive mental construct to remove the subtle anti Christ influences of the Way out of my mind.

The bible says God is love, and we should walk in love, and we should love one another, and we should do good unto all. If I read 10 authors on a topic and build a derived work from them, and draw my own conclusions, is it loving to not at least put those authors in my bibliography? Even if I don't quote them and reference them in the pages, it is proper to show they were my sources of information. Do you really believe that the God of Love would have me slightly modify another's work and call it my own? I wonder why it is so important to you to convince everyone here that VPW did not plagiarize. Waysider showed me a very clear comparison of VPW's book on spirit vs Stile's book on spirit. While I originally didn't think VPW plagiarized, that comparison was all I needed to change my view. Is this something you are unwilling to do?

Yes. I'm aware of those 2 items, which have already been discussed in some detail here at GS. I care not to comment on them, for this appears to me to be like a magician's trick called misdirection. Although my gut feeling is that the following seems futile, I'll try a little more patience with you --- for the time being: Although this is really for Mike, you (So_crates) just might like this. Maybe let me know what ya think? MIKE: This is rather deep (and also might just be a bit controversial); but I perceive you like to think deeply, so here goes: Via a thorough study, I've found what one might call a dark side to the light. It delves into the realm where things usually frowned upon (or forbidden) in the Scriptures are indeed acceptable in God's eyes. A classic case is that of acceptable lying --- from Joshua 2: You might remember God working in Rahab's heart to lie to King Jericho's men, who were looking for the two spies Joshua had sent out. She told them they had already left, when the truth was that she had hidden them on the roof of her inn. Normally, lying is wrong. But in that case, it was okay with God because the safety of God's people was more important; for if they had gotten caught, they may have been murdered. Other base things such as this are available within this dark realm of the light, as I call it. Paul admitted "robbing other churches" (2Co 11:8) and was even "crafty" at times, "catching people by guile" (2Co 12:16). And even God himself used deception against the enemy: We know from 1Co 2:7-8 that God allowed the Devil to kill Jesus (when in actuality, Jesus willingly gave up his life) supposing that would help him to avoid the fate (the prophesy in Gen 3:15) which foretold that "the seed of the woman would bruise [crush] his head". There are many more examples of acceptable wrong behavior in the Word. But this liberty is NOT TO BE MISUSED. And it only comes by way of revelation from beyond the written Word --- and not from man's own scheming! And these things (outside of the norm) seem to happen most often during perilous (or austere) times, and frequently involve the safety and protection of God's people. These exceptions to the normal rules are certainly not a license to do whatever one likes for his own reasons. Just never! I've also observed that conventions such as these (which deviate from the written revelation) are used to trick and deceive the enemy; and I haven't see even one example where things of this nature were utilized among the household of God! Within the family, we're honest; we speak the truth; we're not deceitful; and we don't trick people or lay traps for them, etc. And this is what was wrong with VP's supposed revelation (to deceive his followers into believing God had sanctioned his behavior, which certainly includes plagiarism!): He crossed the line --- when he did this to the household of God!

Rocky, wow! I don't know about Mike, but I would never, never attempt to speak for God. God's mind is so much bigger than mine; I am a mere human. IMHO, God is more than capable of speaking for Himself. People who attempt to speak for God, are usually full of Dung.

From my own experience to be blessed in TWI is a COMMAND by verbal or physical or emotional coercion. You are told to be blessed. You are then told to be inspired from being blessed and this is called free will giving. If VPW actually produced something that genuinely blessed anyone, I doubt a huge amount of effort would go into discussing plagiarism. It would mostly be shrugged off.

Eccl 8:11-12 "Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil. Though a sinner do evil an hundred times, and his days be prolonged, yet surely I know that it shall be well with them that fear God, which fear before him." You see Mike, this is exactly why VP continued the way he did --- because he was getting away with it! Also according to this verse, the more one persists in the error the easier it becomes to practice it. And we also see here that to respect God is how "it shall be well for us". Have you forgotten what Jesus said to the Pharisees in Matt 22:21? "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's." As well as obeying God, we're expected to obey "the law of the land". And (even as Waysider just indicated) plagiarism is against the law --- not only in America, but in most other countries as well. Jesus seemed to understand this. Do you, Mike?

Ya know, Spectrum...I’ve found that things usually go well in my neck of the galaxy when my wife thinks she’s at the center of it. Perhaps that is indeed the reality of the situation- I mean ...since I’m a whimpy white dwarf I do feel strongly attracted to her.

Once again, your intellectual dishonesty is on display; The following is a copy of my original post: Your answer: As you can see, you gave an answer to question I didn't ask. Now would you like to answer the other part of may post (Are they God winning, as you claim with Saint Vic getting away with stealing others works)? Also, the problem with plagerism is that it's deceitful, bearing false witness (taking credit for something you didn't do). This begs the question: Would a loving God send one of his spokesmen to intentionally decieve His people? And what is the bibical presidence for that.

I was reading up on how a black hole is formed; as the Black Hole link states “Black holes of stellar mass are expected to form when very massive stars collapse at the end of their life cycle. After a black hole has formed, it can continue to grow by absorbing mass from its surroundings. By absorbing other stars and merging with other black holes, supermassive black holes of millions of solar masses may form.” I found another website that was a little more descriptive and this really got my imagination going on how else I can abuse I mean use my supermassive black hole / TWI’s “gravitational pull” simile. It was here that I read “Black holes are formed when a really big star dies out. When that happens, the outward force of the star's nuclear fusion cannot overcome its gravity, so it collapses. If the star has more than about four times the mass of our sun, nothing can stop the star's collapse, so it becomes smaller and denser until it becomes a singularity. The singularity's gravitational force is so strong that nothing, not even light, can escape it. This is called a black hole.” ...I dunno maybe I’m just impressing myself with the poetry or how picturesque this simile has become - more so than the logic or technical stuff - so being how this is all just my 2-bit philosophizing all out of proportion – I got to thinking along the lines of what makes a person a narcissist - - maybe a collapsing star isn’t too far off the mark...As the above Psychology Today link states: “People with narcissistic personality disorder believe they are superior or special, and often try to associate with other people they believe are unique or gifted in some way. This association enhances their self-esteem, which is typically quite fragile underneath the surface. Individuals with NPD seek excessive admiration and attention in order to know that others think highly of them. Individuals with narcissistic personality disorder have difficulty tolerating criticism or defeat, and may be left feeling humiliated or empty when they experience an "injury" in the form of criticism or rejection.” …I am no expert in psychology or personality disorders but I have often wondered (without considering any genetic predispositions or other factors) why wierwille was so driven to attain recognition… ...he wanted everyone to call him “doctor”…he plagiarizes a lot of other folks’ work to call it all his own…fabricates a story of God supposedly speaking to him and then making it snow on demand. I think as his ego grew bigger – he became more self-absorbed – and like a dying star, whatever energy there was that might have been harnessed to serve others, could not escape outward – the gravity…the attraction to the self was too great to allow it. Now imagine - in a weird and Twilight Zone way – a supermassive-black-hole-of-an-ego. Its gravitational force becoming so strong as to exert considerable force to pull in a handful of people…hundreds of people…thousands of people...with a supermassive a$$hole for a leader I think when it comes to nefarious leaders, often religion can be used as a very effective tool of manipulation. Some folks can have very strong feelings about their beliefs. I think wierwille’s ministry was a thinly disguised exploitative organization. It had a veneer of Christianity. Perhaps that is a little more palatable than how Jesus described the hypocrites of his day – see Matthew 23 . Now all this got me thinking about where do manipulative leaders derive their power. In doing some research on the Internet, I came across an article Using Religion for Power and one post by Abagail really captivated my interest by what she said: “Through my own research on the topic of the temple and priesthood of Amen, I found that the Pharaoh was seen as the true son of the god. When the king was made Pharaoh, it was the god claiming him as his heir. The priests of Amen also held sway over the people because they perpetuated an image of themselves as heroes to the downtrodden. In fact, religion held so much power at a point in Egyptian history that the priesthood of Amen rivaled the power of the Pharaoh. Even when the Pharaoh turned to a different main god, the general public still held strong to Amen-Re. Religion is a powerful thing, but the power derives from the people; the Pharaoh and the gods only had as much power as the people let them have through their strong beliefs in the gods.” That one line really stuck with me “the Pharaoh and the gods only had as much power as the people let them have through their strong beliefs in the gods.” That makes me think of the “idols of the heart” mentioned in Ezekiel 14:3 - which eventually becomes a stumbling block as the rest of the verse indicates... An idol of the heart is invisible. No one knows it’s there - maybe not even the person who has this idol within their heart. You see, I never really thought of wierwille as an idol of the heart – but when I think back on how much I admired him...revered him as head and shoulders above any other great persons I could think of...I mean, I had such respect for his life and work – that God chose wierwille to teach “the word” to modern man. I considered his classes and books like keys to unlock all the great truths of the Bible...I was so young and gullible when I first got involved in TWI... Guess it took 12 years of spinning my wheels and gaining some life experiences that got me to start wondering what was the stumbling block in my pursuit of God and the Christian lifestyle. …but let me clarify – I did not think he was god or took the place of god – I think what I was doing was more along the lines of what’s prohibited in Exodus 20: 3 “you shall have no other gods before me”. ...For me, wierwille was like an interface between me and God...being guided by his interpretation of the Bible was how I thought I could connect and communicate with God. Nothing wrong with a desire to connect and communicate with God - - but now I see that following wierwille's "spiritual" leadership was a very dubious means of achieving that...so now I say to all you God lovers out there who can hear my post (huh? - - oh never mind - musta clicked on an old commercial or sumpin') - cut out the middleman - and go direct That brings me back to what I said in my first post: “…the feeling of being trapped and thinking of TWI as almost like a custodian of my fate. Whatever they say will happen to me are the supposed consequences of my believing - something to be feared ...nice little trick though - it really was a self-imposed mental prison - but I was not aware that I was the only one that could let myself go free...I can't really leave until they say it's ok to do so...which they never will, of course...especially if you were in the way corps - it's a lifetime commitment to Christian service.” ...There's a little lesson from The Wizard of Oz for all of us: Dorothy had the power to escape the supermassive black hole all along; and even in space Toto still needs his daily walk. Yup I think you got that right, Abagail “the Pharaoh and the gods only had as much power as the people let them have through their strong beliefs in the gods.”

Wow! I had no idea. This was before my time. Apparently not. Thanks to both of you. I stand corrected.

One detective at the precinct thinks it was an inside job and is planning a stink operation to flush out the culprits.