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Yes…I’m wondering if any questions about Mike’s position should be directed to Twinky - - just to save time.

Well, that of course is a subjective argument. We can't quantify either one. But Twinky articulated Mike's position well. Probably far better than Mike ever could... at least far more succinctly.

Bolshevik asked: What he's arguing, Bolshevik, is that the information is God's, and God can give it to whomsoever he wishes. And if someone (VPW) collates all the info (at God's direction) then that person isn't stealing or plagiarising the works, because the information didn't belong to the original writer whose publications were plagiarised. Hence, God revealed something to, say, Stiles; but the information was God's, not Stiles's; and VPW merely collated it and put it together with publications from, say, Bullinger. Throughout, the information remained and remains God's property. It doesn't explain, of course, why TWI should copyright material that, on this basis, isn't theirs to collate, since it's God's information. Copyrighting would mean that this publication of God's information becomes less available to others to whom God might reveal information , or give instructions, to collate such material with their own publications (should they so wish). PFAL material, you understand, is God's final written word about anything, and as such will not need to be added to or amended. Not now, and not ever in the future, by generations 100 years down the line (should Christ's return be delayed that long).

The supposition that pfal was of significant long-term benefit hangs primarily on the alleged "1942 promise." That promise, as stated by vpw, was that God spoke audibly to vpw, and promised that God Almighty would teach vpw God's Word ;like it hadn't been known since the first century (AD) if vpw would teach it to others. vpw supposedly asked God to confirm this by a miraculous snowstorm. All right, how many ways can we show this 1942 promise failed? We've done it lots of times before, this is mostly compilation. A) The miraculous snowstorm never happened. There was NO report of actual snow anywhere near where this allegedly happened. When it supposedly happened, he didn't even tell his own wife it happened. Come on, that would have been the first words out of any spouse's mouth that evening. ("Honey, you'll never believe what happened to me today...") He never claimed it until decades later. He couldn't keep the details of the miraculous event straight, even. When he first began making this claim, he said the sky looked BLACK with all the heavy snow. This, BTW, isn't what it looks like for even the heaviest snow. Later-probably because he learned that doesn't happen- he switched to saying the sky was WHITE with snow. I'm sure details can get lost over time, but if a miraculous event that turns the sky all one color, you'd at least remember the color. Finally, this wasn't the only time vpw claimed a miraculous snowstorm. In fact, he did it whenever it was convenient. When he added special significance to the minister's conference where he met Stiles, vpw claimed that the entire city was snowed in completely. He was unable to get out because planes, trains and buses were all stopped due to heavy snow conditions, a blizzard. This was a rather big lie, and one that was checkable. When someone spoke to him about it, he didn't say "I was there and saw the snow and walked in it, check again", he immediately switched his story to prevent trying to contradict the weather report. He immediately began claiming the snow was an angelic apparition- angels made him see snow that wasn't there, and when he phoned transit places, angels answered the phone and lied to him. (He would rather have us think angels lied than that he lied.) In reality, not even a single FLAKE fell from the sky in that city that day, and the temperature didn't reach freezing. This wasn't the last time vpw made up a convenient snowstorm, even. A poster here once noted that vpw was supposed to visit their area. Instead, he phoned and said that he WANTED to fly there, but he was located at a bad snowstorm and he was told it was unsafe. The poster checked the weather in vpw's area at the time, and there was neither snow nor storms predicted. So, the entire snow part was a lie. Without that, there's no 1942 promise. However, even if it was possible for there to have been a snowstorm (it's not possible), the other problems with his story would be enough to discredit it. There WAS no 1942 promise. vpw was NEVER some great one. pfal was NEVER some great class nor great study materials. It was all built up as a con-and not the most secure con, either. It needed lots of outside help to prop it up.

Here's where the logic falls apart, at least for me. According to Mike, Wierwille got revelation to assemble things that had already been given by revelation. I'll call this revelation that had already been given the primary revelation and Wierwille's the secondary revelation. We've already demonstrated that the primary revelation contained errors. Why would secondary revelation be given to use something (the primary revelation) that is known to contain errors? That seems awfully counterproductive, in my opinion.

Sometimes I really DO forget how long we've been doing this, and how many discussions of substance have passed through here. This was really more a summary of what other posters pointed out long ago, across different threads.

Poor Mikey, his addiction is scripture originally was perfect but sinful human beings purposely decided to pervert them, hence poor translations and not understanding Semetic mid-eastern culture, so radically different than Europe(Greek, Roman, Germanic, and British). Like VPW, he has no knowledge of History, church or secular

It wasn't because of any 1942 promise that I got excited about understanding the Bible better. Those amazing miracles recorded in Acts got my attention. I read Acts and it was exciting! Wow, that stuff happened? That stuff is what is available? Where is it? I don't see it in the local churches. They're boring. So soon after, when I met a WoW, who knew a lot of Bible but more to the point, prayed about things and they happened, wow! that got my attention. A lot of strange and unexplainable things happened when he was around - he prayed, astonishing things happened, everything went well. I wanted to know how to get prayers answered. To be able to work miracles, to help people in that miraculous way. It was one sees, seeing the power of God in action, seeing and knowing it's real, experiencing God at work, where there are results - that's what gets attention. Ultimately, this WoW got badly hurt by C G33r, but that (at that time) didn't damage his confidence in God. So I don't know about 1942 promises. The WoW believed it, I think; it wasn't really a talking point; he believed that God would hear and answer. He believed the word taught, having rejected an idolatrous RC upbringing. It was the simple faith of young and enthusiastic believers that got through to many people, worldwide. It was results, not words or fake promises.

Mike, I have never met Penworks, but she seems like a very, very sharp lady to me. I love her posts; she is a very talented writer.

DWBH: My God! I never realized that even the concept of The Way Tree wasn't original --- I think I've heard it all now! By the way: "My name is Mel...and I'm a Wayaholic. Although I haven't been to a Way fellowship in over 10 years, I know in my heart that just one sip of their Kool Aide again --- and my life would certainly be over!"

The question I had with his statement (which may have been discussed in a previous thread) is “What was Jesus Christ doing for his body the church, since the first century”? Sitting idly by waiting for VeePee to show up? What delusional arrogance. What a crock of caca.

Based on the information we have seen so far, it wasn't only VPW that lied. VPW said that God promised him He would teach him "the word" like it hadn't been known for 2,000 years. We now know, thanks to Mike, VPW's staunchest advocate , that the information had, in fact, been known for quite some time. What Wierwille did, according to Mike, was take existing material and "assemble" it in a way it hadn't been assembled before. Plagiarism issues aside for the moment, what this means is that God must have lied when He made the promise to VPW. He promised Wierwille exclusive information but, instead, pulled a fast one on VPW by giving him previously known material to assemble. Of course, I don't actually believe this. Still, it suggests God was lying when He made the promise. edit: "God is not a man, that He should lie..." (Numbers 23:19)

This is what I think of when the year 1942 is mentioned. Wierwille's story is not necessarily as attractive.