Leaderboard

And on the topic of whether or not there has been manned (and womanned) space flight, moon landings, Mars rover landings, exploration of distant planets and other wondrous things, I disagree with your entire concept that NASA has been staging huge deceptions. Further, I find your claims in that regard so absurd that I have no intention of addressing the minutia. Your inference, "too much good, hard evidence... etc." Only reflects how you see the situation and bears no relation to how I view any of it.

Reading posts here at gsc has helped greatly in processing things and in discerning the good from the bad and the ugly in the way organization. And I wrote the following: Well, am feeling as if I never had closure, never got to really say good-bye to a dear friend, the twi-with-a-lot-of-good that I got involved with in '74... And yes, am also saying good-bye to a dream, naive as it was, that a human organization or leader or Bible interpretation, could actually be a "rock of certainty in the ocean of uncertainty..." Guess it is time to do another round of mourning and letting go... And I want to keep moving ahead "fool-proofing" my life, and testing the spiritual waters for what I can believe and trust; which I think more and more is a still-alive-Jesus, Scripture minus any dogmatic closed system of interpretation, and ppl who pass character tests. (And I will continue recovering from trauma that occurred before, during, and after the way- a profitable [ad]venture.) Re: the idealistic dreams for finding rock-solid certainty and perfection on this inhabited earth... they are not for this Life, me thinks, but rather the Next. Duh!! And YAY!!

After the lawyers got involved in those lawsuits regarding sexual predation, which prompted martindale's ouster........I was under the impression that rivenbark had to dial back lots of the manipulation and exploitation of its followers. From those of you still in at the time......wasn't twi reprimanded to stop the "salary-based-on-needs-basis" doctrine because it was ILLEGAL? And further, that twi needed to pay overtime for those who worked more than 46 hours per week? Plus, twi could NOT regulate someone on staff who wanted to have a second job to supplement their income.....and that's why John Linder is a real estate agent when he's not brandishing his 9mm Glock handgun as head bodyguard at the way international. So, my question................Why can't corps retire from twi with dignity? Sure, it's a sleazy, indoctrinating cult and all........but what's the point in kicking people "in the groin" when they simply want a little respect and dignity? Are the board of directors so jaded and sadistic that they can't extend some respect to those who'd worked to promote their product for some 40 years? ........for those who used their OWN money to move from state to state, and job to job, to help run hundreds and hundreds (thousands?) of meetings, and classes? Of course, many of us remember wierwille boasted that "......we don't retire in The Way" as he heaped praise on Dorothy and Rhoda, but they were FULL-TIME staff and had trailer units on grounds. Did they ever move year after year, and slave to pay the bills.....and eat cereal for supper before rushing off to teach the next twig fellowship? NO......they did not. It is absolutely mind-blowing to see the hardness of heart from Rosalie, Jean-Yves, JohnR, and BillyG. !!! When I go back and re-read that Revival and Restoration thread.....that August 2016 letter and follow-up letter from Melody Ann Carter, they were requesting "respect and dignity" for all their years of service. They wanted emeritus status for decades of fighting for twi in the trenches of life. Sure, they were peeved that old Rosalie wouldn't address their concerns or moderate her stance on several doctrine issues......namely, that debt-doctrine. But more than that.........they DID NOT want to jump thru any more hoops. Why couldn't they retire with dignity........and sit a spell? Bottom Line..............moynihans, horneys, forts, others wanted some R-E-S-P-E-C-T. (Sing it Aretha Franklin........) What is so glaringly repugnant is that..................Rosalie NEVER served on-the-field after she graduated from Family Corps. Hypocrisy much? Jean-Yves NEVER served on-the-field after he graduated from the 16th Corps. Hypocrisy much?

My view on scriptures is that "given by inspiration of God" or theo pneustos in the Greek is simply an expression. Greek as a language has a different flavor than Hebrew, different culture - Western vs. Eastern. It's like German vs. French/Spanish/Italian. It's easier to describe geometry in Greek. Greek was the educated language of the day, the Latin of today. So an OCD attachment to grammatical minute details in a work that has been translated into different languages and miscopied, and original manuscripts are not much around and those that are introduce almost as many questions as answers is frankly illogical. It makes the Christian "strain at a gnat and swallow a camel" It makes the Christian exactly as the Greek language word for "scribe" appears - grammeteis - grammatician. The sister to a Pharisee is a scribe. How does God "reveal" things to me as I am a Christian have accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior? Many different ways. The rays of sunshine at dawn. The weird unique phrasing a person uses I just met and am in conversation with. The sequence of things I see in a row. How does it not happen? Like the Joseph Smith story of Mormonism. An angel named Moroni appeared to me and had me automatic write a series of text down without conscious knowledge. Then because it bypassed my brain it is just like the 10 Commandments God inscribed and I must write it down and spread it out for all other Christians to read and buy my books I published about it and I must start my own cult. That is not the meaning of "God breathed". No that is not how "revelation" works to me in a normal relationship with my Lord and Savior and my God. So scriptures to me have to work the same. 10% inspiration, 90% perspiration. I love to get my inspiration from scriptures. I have read through the entire Bible a few times at least purposefully, maybe more. There is a lot of whitespace in the Bible, meaning word content that doesn't seem to convey much in the essence of moral guidance, meaning, etc. How many geneology chapters are there? Name after name after name. So to me Christianity is more about an ongoing relationship than it is about someone checking all the boxes on Levitical law for whatever reason.

Interesting thread. It brings to mind I recently had the opportunity to visit a Jesuit college. I recollect looking at statues depicting the intersection of science and faith. I met the head of the college who is a Jesuit himself and very dedicated to the Jesuit mission in education. The staff was strong, mission oriented, and united. They are strong in education for the medical related fields. A couple of the tenets I remember are "cura persona" meaning a medical approach to cure the whole person, not just a part, and also that purpose in life comes through service so they require community service hours in their education. Here's an interesting article related - http://theconversation.com/jesuits-as-science-missionaries-for-the-catholic-church-47829 Of course I need standard disclaimers here for those who might be highly offended at me using Catholic or Jesuit resources. No I haven't "gone back" to Catholic church or any of its doctrines (actually never was Catholic), no I don't believe in "The Trinity" (all caps emphasized for Persona sake), yes I read scriptures, yes I pray and live as a Christian and attend a local community Christian church that probably believes in the trinity (lack of all caps and persona emphasized) but I haven't heard a lot on it and no I don't believe in an extreme fundamentalism viewpoint. Now y'alls can label me and categorize me properly for your brain cells. I like to read. I don't like boundaries. Especially those that smack of religiosity or man-made commandments of the sort that brought me under bondage in the Way.

Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. Faith in God and Jesus Christ is the Way to go, annio, and your personal realization of that is real and profound. Savor it. Own it! It's yours. Sometimes the work we need to do most is to remove the barriers we and others put up that obscure the path we're to follow, the Way of Jesus Christ our Savior. The good news is that God draws us all to Himself through Christ. The change you seek can only be good. I heard something last week that's stuck with me and I'll share it with you - it was the statement that "to believe in Jesus Christ is to believe that you're forgiven"....that the fundamental foundational thing that God wants us to do is to come to Christ and know that forgiveness, His grace and mercy, that finally we are at peace with Him by doing nothing more than accepting the peace He offers directly to us. I've been thinking about that this week when I pray and it feels...."good". Really good. All the best to you - there's a song by a band named Dawes, titled "A Little Bit of Everything" and the final verse captures another idea I'd share with you and that is to enjoy the life God has given you! Every bit of it, to it's fullest. I believe we witness to God's magnificence as Creator when we make everything we can of the life he's given us. Peace! "All these psychics and these doctorsThey're all right and they're all wrong.It's like trying to make out every wordWhen they should simply hum along.It's not some message written in the darkOr some truth that no one's seenIt's just a little bit of everything." (Taylor Goldsmith)

Well done, annio. It takes years to disentangle properly from TWI doctrine and practices. But examine everything; keep what is good You said elsewhere you're going to a church; ask them if you have doctrinal concerns, and you don't have to accept their answer! They might be right, might be wrong, but it's another point of view that you can consider. Sit back and see what your church does, and how they treat each other and outsiders. Are they kind and welcoming, or legalistic (you can easily spot that one!). For example, for a while, I would deliberately go to church late (because in TWI 10 mins early is "late") - I was always welcomed kindly, given the notice sheet, and found a seat. Not one word about being late. I was in a housegroup and they were all mature Christians; I'd challenge their views (because they weren't like TWI doctrine) - they put up with me patiently despite (as a friend told me later) them thinking I had some very odd ideas and was a bit weird. I undertook a one-year course at a local Bible college (one evening a week) to find out "mainstream" views, and found a variety of views from the guest teachers, some of whom were excellent, one showed himself to be a bully (he wasn't invited back) - by this time I had the courage to discuss one idea with my church leaders and they thought it was very strange too. There is a wide variety of views in the Christian community but God will lead you to a place that is best for you, now; later, another place might be more appropriate for where you are on your journey. That's fine. You didn't say how long you'd been in or how old you are now; if raised as a child for more than a couple of years, there'll be a lot you need to work through. Take your time. Whatever you do, wherever you find yourself, live kindly and with compassion. Seek others who live kindly and compassionately. Be kind to yourself. Oh, and read Bibles other than KJV. Too loaded. I found The Message (wildly different!) a good way to start reading again. Made me think and not gloss over or jump into TWI thinking patterns. There are threads here about different Bible versions, and why people who still read Bibles read the versions they do. Blessings!

Deconstructing Fundamentalism Independence Day Six years ago today, I lifted my three sleepy children into their car seats, hastily threw our belongings into trash bags, and shut the door on my abuser forever. I had 1,041 miles to drive. I weighed 105 pounds. I had no job and no home. I was scared to death. But I knew the exhilaration of freedom the minute I pointed my wheels south and stepped on that gas pedal. I was done sleeping with my keys and wallet hidden under my pillow. I was done trying to protect little eyes and ears from witnessing his anger. I was done with years of systematic abuse hollowing me into a shell of a person. The times that I tried to leave, and the things that he had done to me to stop me from leaving. For years afterword, my hands involuntarily shook when I said it out loud. Me too. Me f**king too. (more)

The irony of using this particular scripture out of context is that, in the blink of an eye, it shifted the focus from Christ to one's own self. That doesn't simply obscure the message, it contradicts it. You (not Christ) become the central figure, by operating the law of believing and faithfully following the formula for success. To say that Wierwille wasn't operating a bait & switch scheme would be a naive denial of reality.

Rachael Denhollander was the first woman to publicly accuse former USA Gymnastics team doctor Larry Nassar of sexual abuse. As she worked to find justice for herself and the doctor’s other victims, Denhollander began to turn a critical eye on a community that she depended on dearly for support ― her church. Denhollander, an evangelical Christian, saw that Biblical teachings about grace and repentance were being weaponized against victims, pressuring them into offering an easy forgiveness to their abusers. At the same time, churches lacked accountability structures that treated victims with compassion and respect. It soon became clear to her that when it comes to properly caring for survivors of sexual abuse, the church has a long way to go ― and experts HuffPost spoke to agree. Denhollander opened up about her disappointment with the American evangelical church in an interview Wednesday with Christianity Today’s Morgan Lee. “Church is one of the least safe places to acknowledge abuse because the way it is counseled is, more often than not, damaging to the victim,” said Denhollander, who now works as a lawyer in Kentucky. “There is an abhorrent lack of knowledge for the damage and devastation that sexual assault brings. It is with deep regret that I say the church is one of the worst places to go for help.” (continued) As far as I'm concerned, Ms Denhollander is a righteous warrior. Her insight obviously applies to what took place during Wierwille's reign of error (and terror).

Taxi, thanks, but I really am NOT interested in R&R. I would rather spend my time in at the GSC. I am pleasantly surprised by how much Godly information I glean from reading the posts. But again, thank you for the information.

Sometimes, in an open discussion forum.....a side-tangent erupts that adds great insight to deeper thought-provoking questions. Therefore, rather than seeing this topic get lost and buried into hundreds of other threads...it needs its own thread.

I needed both change and help and I was fortunate enough to have a BC who supplied me with both. I am sorry that the only things that you received from PFAL were some minor head-knowledge things about figures of speech, etc; but what that indicates to me is that you really missed the point of PFAL because I really believe that taking PFAL saved my life on at least two separate occasions (the first time I took it and another time when my life was falling apart). As I have said before in other places I think there were a lot of people who took PFAL only for the knowledge involved instead of from any heart-felt desire to know God, and knowing God was the real point of PFAL. I don't believe the doctrine of no condemnation or exposure to the Word dulled my 'conscience', in my experience it sharpened it. I became more and more aware of mistakes that I was making over the years but I learned to deal with them in a Godly manner by apologising to God (and other people if appropriate) immediately and then moving on without obsessing about the mistake (whatever it was) but also making every effort to avoid making the same mistake in the future. I never bought into (or was taught by my leadership) the attitude that anything I did was okay because I was righteous and therefore I didn't really commit sin or do anything wrong. However, condemning my self was just adding another sin to the one I had already committed. But, as I have said before, I was privileged to be around some very good men and women of integrity whose only interest was in doing the Word and loving people. I regret that not all of you shared my experience.

This thread has been an amazement to me!!!!! I came to GS because I heard from a friend, a couple months ago, that a TWI fellowship had come to town. I was surprised at my reaction....FEAR!!! It actually made me quiver. My hands visibly shook, and I began to sweat!! That reaction alarmed me. What the he!! was that about?!?!?! I was frightened by the mere thought of a twi6 being close by. That really shook me up bad!!! I stewed over it for several days. Then, on a whim, I googled TWI and found GS...been here ever since. I read everything here like a man obsessed...articles, stickies, threads...the works! Some of the posts struck home, others made me angry, and others made me cry, but the more I read, the more I realized I HAD TO deal with this TWI infection in ways I had not imagined. My early posts were aimed squarely at vp, the monster. I had thought I was past that, but I wasn't...I had just buried that, and much more deep inside...and hearing about that fellowship brought it all back to the surface. And the more I remembered, the more crap I found lurking in the corners of my mind...that was the most frightening part! I really believed I had re-examined my belief system sufficiently enough to get my head on straight...well, all I had done was the "feel good" part. I assuaged my pain just enough to get by, but no more. I hadn't addressed the deep seated problems that TWI had instilled in me. Well, for many years after I left TWI I wouldn't even look at a bible, much less engage in any discussion, or thinking, about it. It brought up too many bad feelings and doubts. To make a long story short, about 5 years ago I began reading the bible again. I had never lost my love for God...it was just buried under all the hurt and doubt. I thought I was reconnecting to Him and re-examining my beliefs. And to a certain extent, I was. I had begun making decisions about how I led my life based on what I was reading in the bible...and those changes have become permanent through the years. I had been working on the simple, basic things...the great commandment, being humble, helping others before I helped myself, looking for the good in others, putting God first in my life, looking to Jesus Christ for guidance, praying for others to prosper while asking only for my needs, etc., etc. In His usual, subtle way, God was, little by little, guiding me back towards Him. So, what does this rambling have to do with this thread? Well, I just realized that without my conscience being healed up, I would, ultimately, have fallen right back into waybrain thinking, or close to it. What I have just realized today is that what I had actually been doing was rebuilding my conscience...relearning how to distinguish between right and wrong, good and evil. I think that's why GS has made such an impact on my life...it's a whole community of people seeking truth and answers, helping each other to get to that truth and those answers. I immediately recognized that I needed to be involved here. I needed those same truths and answers. All the postings here have made me think hard about my beliefs and their application...harder than I've ever thought before....and all this thinking is finally paying off...I'm learning vital insights into God's Word and His ways more and more every day...the pieces of the jigsaw really are comming together...and today, a big one dropped in place. FROM THE DEPTHS OF MY HEART, THANKS GS COMMUNITY! :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap:

True. But I think if we saw what the finished product was going to look like, few of of us would have chosen to submit. Personally, I didn't need change, I needed help. Honestlly, I didn't get the kind of "help" I really needed until I was out of der ministry.

Before I started this thread – it has bugged me why my mind would keep going back to the pajama party incident – and really I never thought about it - until coming to Grease Spot this year. It's not like I was traumatized by the incident. I think for me it has become THE defining moment of the devilish influence that emanated from VPW. It was a teacher/student setting – with me idolizing his every move all out of proportion. I firmly believed he could do no wrong. Whether he realized it or not – his true self came through – loud and clear. This happened in the Way Corps – the training center for his most dedicated followers! It's just another teaching opportunity – a subliminal one – the "master" is modeling how to be so spiritual, so mature – that he can do anything and not sin – "it's nothing more than watching porn with a sixteen year old girl." Or what other demented reasoning would you like to use for justifying this incident? "I'm showing you this doggie/women porn video because it may help you in counseling someday." Oh yeah – good point - I forgot about all the thousands of people in the pornography industry I could help if I knew all the sordid details of their typical workday. And I think it would be a great challenge counseling a former porn-star canine. From my Christian perspective, I like some of the points in The Vanishing Conscience by John MacArthur: Mental health is contingent, if not synonymous with, moral health. The conscience functions more like a skylight, not a light bulb. It lets light into the soul; it does not produce its own light. Its effectiveness is determined by the amount of light we expose to it, and how clean we keep it. Cover it or put it in darkness and it ceases to function. That is why the apostle Paul spoke of the importance of a clear conscience [I Timothy 3:9], and warned against anything that would defile or muddy the conscience [I Corinthians 8:12; Titus 1:15]. He warned of the dangers of a calloused conscience [I Corinthians 8:10], a wounded conscience [I Corinthians 8:12], and a seared conscience [I Timothy 4:2]. Some excerpts on "conscience" from The Tyndale Bible Dictionary by Walter Elwell and Philip Comfort: "Although one's conscience is an inner witness to spiritual and moral truth, it cannot be regarded as the voice of God…No one has such a grasp on moral truth that his or her sinful nature may not overwhelm the conscience and render it unreliable…Both the English word "conscience" and the Greek word translated as "conscience" in the New Testament mean "to be with knowledge." In the Old Testament, Adam and Eve hid themselves from God in shame because their consciences passed moral judgment on their disobedience [Genesis 3:8-10]. All human beings normally have the power of moral judgment: "The spirit of man is the lamp of the Lord, searching all his innermost parts" [Proverbs 20:27]. Conscience, then is a gift of God to provide light in matters of good and evil." I went through the Way Corps program during the latter part of my TWI years. Yes, this sedative to the conscience was already coursing through my decision-making process but had not met any real catalyst of opportunity – for my wife and I left TWI during our practicum year – after Geer's power-play Patriarch fiasco. What if we had stayed in? Considering my upbringing – a good Roman Catholic boy that feels guilty about everything – I don't think I would have become a major womanizer, thinking I was god on a stick – but I could have walked right into a temptation to be unfaithful. Maybe one day I'm counseling a woman – she's telling me she wishes her husband would be sweet to her like the way she's seen me at twig with my wife. She says she hasn't been intimate with her husband in years. She says she just needs God's love, a healing touch, to be loved by a spiritual man. She says she needs a hug – just a hug….I can easily see myself – running all these things through my mind of what to do to help – wanting to help – and then the seductive subliminal VPW training would activate – thoughts like: "Anything done out of love is okay. I think I'm spiritual enough I can handle anything – no fear – and I care about this believer enough – to meet her needs – whatever it takes." This is an amazing thing to me. For something that can have such a powerful influence in dealing with memories, how we act at the moment or plan to act in the future – this inner voice can be "silenced" if we ignore it long enough. As I Timothy 4:2 points out – our conscience can become seared – cauterized – rendered insensitive by persisting in evil. This thread has been mostly a self-help therapy for me. As I continue in this Christian life I become more concerned about the moral status of my heart. Dealing with the mental baggage of my TWI years is like trying to re-calibrate my moral guidance system – or maybe installing an anti-virus program in my heart... Why did I start this thread? A few reasons…I don't have some secret sin to confess – but I have such a healthy respect for the devastating power of sin and think I may have dodged a deadly bullet by abandoning TWI's leadership training program. What kind of person would I have become continuing in that frame of mind? Another reason is there are some who have left TWI and maybe still are not aware of the dark side of VPW. Perhaps there are Corps – still in TWI – who have never thought seriously about the subtle influence of leadership modeling such a morally corrupt version of Christianity. Consider I Thessalonians 1: 6 "You became imitators of us and of the Lord…" I think people have a natural tendency to imitate others. That's how we learn – until we make something our own. The Old Testament reference to the "heart" included the idea of our conscience. Proverbs 4:23 "Watch over your heart with all diligence, for from it flow the springs of life."