Leaderboard

For those who had only a brush of involvement with twi, it is understandable that they didn't see behind the mask. On the field, away from twi's headquarters........there were many, MANY good twig coordinators in the mid-to-late 70s. During this time, it was common for faithful followers to hobnob from one twig to another across town. It may be really difficult, now, to realize that the way ministry exuded strong Christian tenets of love, giving and support at the local level. At each twig fellowship.......two or three songs were sung at those fellowships each night that came from Christian denominations: What a friend we have in Jesus Tis so sweet to trust in Jesus My Jesus, I love thee In the garden My Jesus of Blue Galilee I love to tell the story Great is Thy Faithfulness etc. For those who ask, "How could you join a cult?"..........it wasn't like that in the early 70s on the field. There was no monitoring, no mandating which fellowship to attend. If someone across town was teaching hot bible......that's where the action was. At times, some one would not show up for a month.....but was welcomed with loving arms when he/she returned. Nobody joins a cult willingly (wittingly). In every thing that I've learned or experienced, I would say that wierwille pulled his mask off more openly around 1977.....definitely, by 1978. The confrontations became more widespread and intense. A mandate swept thru to replace The Blue Song Book with the brown song book [.....was this because twi was pressured on using copyrighted songs without permission?....]. Some of the high-profile leaders were starting to stand up and challenge wierwille's authoritarian style and doctrine......while others exited, like Peter Wa-de in 1975. In December 1977.......wierwille begins writing his corps letters and laments that corps are exiting. Letters to the way corps Thirty letters........evidence that wierwille was using another tool to shame and guilt the corps. The problem persisted AND ESCALATED........because wierwille did not change course. Corps kept exiting, because they were being manipulated and exploited. Wierwille knew the tactics of incremental steps. Sure........it took YEARS before it became manifestly clear to the general public. And, then......most notably, Christopher C. Geer took to the podium in 1986 to label craig, don, and howard as "the problem" for everyone being off the word. Good Golly.....Miss Molly! What a load of steaming bullschit. What is so freaking crazy is that there are STILL corps today who believe that wierwille was this benevolent, prophesying man of God. And, here at GreaseSpot........the wierwille-defenders refuse to connect the dots. Go back thru the threads......and you'll see that NONE of the staunch wierwille-defenders ever changed his opinion. And, I say "his"......because, as far as I know, every one of them were men. With overwhelming evidence of wierwille's sexual predation........they dismiss it compared to "the greatness of pfal that he taught." We see it on present threads. You can see it on threads 15 years ago. Go back thru the threads.......and read it for yourselves. Wierwille-defenders protect their idol, wierwille. Seems to me...............wierwille-defenders STILL want the mask back on.

Great posts, Skyrider and ChockFull ! I know it’s been said – and my common sense would agree – no one ever knowingly joins a cult… I got involved in ’74, and like you said it was a sweet time of a simple Christian lifestyle for me… what might be a good metaphor for my 12 years of involvement with TWI is the boiling frog fable ...Early on I was not aware of the growing threat behind the Christian mask…but as time went on – the cult’s subtle powers of manipulation and exploitation extended... or should I say intruded further and further into my life…and it wasn’t until I started questioning things in ’86 that I began to suspect there might be a mask - - that something was covering the real problem or problems. I am so thankful there’s a place like Grease Spot - where unmasking a cult is a group effort !

sky I think you describe perfectly the challenge we have with the "snow-on-the-gas-pumps" crowd. I also experienced a more genuine Christian love I felt at the beginning of my involvement with the Way. And there were many good-hearted people who insulated souls from the evil above. Many times I was that good-hearted leader. At other times I fell short of that. I had a delusional view of the man and the message. I had to come to grips with that before I could come to grips with what God "called me to". Freedom of will is what God called me to, not enslavement. I think that is the true struggle of the Wierwille apologist. It is an internal struggle, whether it is manifested outwardly on these pages in discussion or not.

Today marks the day the great evangelist Billy Graham died. He was known by many including our country's ex-presidents. ""His faith in Christ and his totally honest evangelical spirit inspired people across the country and around the world" - George HW Bush

Recently, one author connected some dots in American history (500 years of it) showing how America became a Fantasyland for new religions and the implications thereof. “A provocative new study of America’s cultural history . . . In this absorbing, must-read polemic, Andersen exhaustively chronicles a development eating away at the very foundation of Americanism.”—Newsday A reader said this about the book, Fantasyland is, as the subtitle says, a 500-year history of the United States, recounted through a particular prism, and I find the thesis convincing and compelling. Andersen's premise is that from colonial days on, America, unlike Europe, has been shaped by people who have been divorced from reality, whether through religious fanaticism (think the Puritans) or prospects of riches (think the Roanoke colony or Jamestown settlers). And that tenacious grip on fantasy over fact has largely guided our nation's history, with new examples emerging in every era. In the aggregate, this elevation of the impossible, the absurd and the unsubstantiated, has repeatedly destroyed lives and gotten us to the sorry place we are today... Fantasyland won't sit well with people who are deeply religious, as some of the other reviews suggest. Andersen takes repeated and precise aim at mainstream religion, as well as fringe sects like Mormonism and Scientology, He traces how various extreme elements and beliefs have come to influence politics, culture and education, among others. And he doesn't cut New Agey sorts any slack, either. But for those of us who reside mainly in the reality-based community, who believe in science and empirical evidence and view religious documents like the Bible as metaphorical, not literal, it is an important and valuable analysis of how we have come to the current pass.

Yeah, T-Bone..........so thankful that GSC is here. It really is amazing to go back thru those threads like say.......pages 88-179. Hundreds upon hundreds of posters have benefitted from this information.......and presumably, living life well now.

Yeah, chockfull.........there is a major struggle for these wierwille-apologists to internalize what happened. It is really quite something to EXPERIENCE the intimidation, manipulation and exploitation.....year after year. Behind closed doors, wierwille's vehement anger was unleashed on the corps time and again. Everything ratcheted up in 1978........when the rock of ages was "ordained" to be at the root, at hq. 1978..........roa at headquarters! 1978..........last year before adv class went "in-house" 1978..........confrontation of three 8th corps gone research-rogue 1978..........shell of OSC building; transitioning from BRC underway 1978..........more campuses / more corporate structure IMHO........the narcissist set his sights on "his legacy." Full-speed ahead.

Reminds me of THIS.

The true way is Jesus Christ. He releases burdens, not imposes more. He frees people, not enslaves them to traditions of men. He tells the truth about evil, doesn't whitewash it. He called the ruling Jews "whited sepulchres". That applies so aptly to so many ruling religious bodies today. Shunning as a practice is anti-Christ. The psychological damage and evil it causes people is well documented. It is a widespread practice in religions regardless of what people are worshipping. For example, the Amish, the Way, the Jehovah's Witnesses, and Scientology. What do they all have in common? The practice of shunning.

If you go looking for a fight you will surely find one.

Astounding! In response to SoCrates’ question Mike replies: For one, it wasn’t “strongly urging” – it was mandatory. For two, and this really riles me: in my opinion, these are far worse (to name but a few). And they're not just "wrong," but mostly illegal: raping young women drugging them breaking up marriages enforced abortion Not to mention > theft > bullying > outrageous hypocrisy Set against those, forbidding to marry is small beer. By the way, can I bring this to mind:

Love and peace to you too T-Bone. I can see you deeply considered what I was suggesting. I'll save your post for future reference.

"Dr. Carol Burns also has a well-researched and documented book "Billy Graham and His Friends: A Hidden Agenda?" that looks much deeper than just the goody-two-shoes facade of TV preachers' football stadium revivals... " That's what you said. If there's some point to the reference, please make it. Otherwise, instead of making a point, you're assigning homework. You're the one who had a point to make, something to say, so please say it. We've had plenty of people who've made vague comments and actually had nothing to add to discussions before. We'd prefer to see people add something to the discussions. "You can believe whatever you want. Don't do your homework. I don't care if you do or not. I have done mine. Please make your specifics about how you know Billy is squeaky clean." "Did you ever spend time with him in his motorcoach?" Well, if you've already done it, then it's a piece of cake to get specific about what you know, what you've seen, heard, read, etc. Graham's lived his life in the public eye. I've not heard of any story breaking of him caught doing something- yet stories have broken about lots of others- Swaggart, Baker, Roberts, etc. What I HAVE heard is all consistent with a man free of scandal. His standard policy was to never ride in an elevator alone with a woman not his wife. Sounds extreme to some ears, but I think it's a sensible precaution for someone who's taking extraordinary steps to avoid opportunities to sin. For the rest, proving a negative doesn't work- but the absence of scandals where many of his peers were caught says quite a bit. That's as specific as I can get. If there's anything more concrete than "he's a public minister, they have authority, they all abuse their authority", then this would be a good time to bring it up. "If you think 'The Way's' Preacher on a Pedestal had enough money to cover all their evil tracks, you can bet your bottom that Billy has many more millions to cover his. If you don't know that Power = Corruption in this world except in the case of the incorruptible man Jesus Christ, keep right on believing that. You're free to belive whatever you want." So, looks like nothing specific. BTW, vpw had enough of a system to keep from getting arrested and exposed publicly while alive- but plenty of people knew and have stepped forward. He died before it caught up with him. As for power corrupting, I think it amplifies what's there. Someone who's corrupt will abuse power, someone who is not will not. We've seen there were people in twi with authority who never considered abusing it; I've never abused any authority I've had nor have I wanted to. "Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely" was from Lord Acton, not the Bible. I feel at liberty to disagree with Lord Acton and to cite counter-examples. "Don't know who you are, I don't want to have to do the homework to find out. But I'm sure if you're the head Preacher here, or owner of this site, or moderator, or whatever, that you may decide to Mark & Avoid me like I've read so many people on here were, or you may just delete my posts, or completely delete my profile, it's ok, life goes on. If that is your revenge, go right ahead, it'll be just like old times. And I've been thrown out of much better places anyway. Have at it. I've tangled with better. I don't see much difference between your attitude and the attitudes of the people who are criticized so much here for things they apparently did to innocent people years ago. It's ok though, because I read posts on this site for some time before deciding to post here also, knowing that it would not be long before the attacks came. Lovely." "Oh, and if you are the decision-maker on this site, please try to find it within yourself to give me a little notice if you are going to kick me off the site so that I can say 'bye to the people who have been nice to me here. Otherswise if you just kick me off without any notice, then that will give me the right to tell others how this website is a cult, just like many people here have stated that 'The Way' is a cult because they got booted out with no notice either." That's an awful lot to build up, all from a notice that politics are no longer allowed on the GSC after some bad history with it. Amazing how fast I'm accused of things I never even suggested. I'm not the head anything here, but I post, and sometimes people find something useful in them. After you put down the chair, you might find something as well. Or you may not-there's no rule about that either way, with my posts or anyone else's. The GSC is remarkably free-handed in that respect. "Oh and by the way, since you apparently don't know, Politics and Religion are the same thing, just two arms of the same body, and if you haven't figured that out by now, well, then you do need to do your homework. " Politics, and anything that allows authority over someone, can resemble each other, but none of them are the same thing. Political discussions in particular got really contentious on this site, and wasted the time of the moderators. The admin considered either shutting the entire site down, or shutting down the political section and political discussion in general. He chose to go with the latter. Anyone is welcome to make their own messageboard for politics or anything else- and in this case, someone made a political forum with the blessings of the admin. Eventually it wound down and I don't think it exists anymore. Anyone's welcome to make a new one. I could have sworn we were discussing the recent passing-away of Billy Graham....

Actually one of several models I’ve been using (ever since I came to Grease Spot some 12 years ago) is a biblical model – where my reference points are the passages that instruct Christians on how to spot a false prophet, a false teacher, a wolf in sheep’s clothing, a religious hypocrite, etc. other conceptual models are just as valid to help one know and understand how cults and cult leaders work – such as a psychological approach, or sociological, intellectual, historical just to name a few. some of these approaches can be observed by the examples / links within my earlier post (see quoted below) of truly hard-hitting posters who are uncompromisingly direct and honest, especially in revealing unpalatable facts: Your claim of Grease Spotters using a “pure evil” model often hits me as nothing more than a straw man fallacy – where a person distorts, exaggerates or misrepresents what others have said in an effort to make it easier for the person to refute it all. But I think I understand what you’re saying about missing the complexities of the bigger picture (and I’ll get to that in a minute) – but what I think you’re missing is how really simple this process of discernment is: Matthew 7 on how to properly judge others and not being hypocritical, identifying false prophets by their fruit, and identifying true followers of the Lord. Matthew 23 talks about the ways of religious hypocrites, the double standard they employ. II Peter 2 talks about false prophets and teachers who use insidious doctrines, follow their sensualities and exploit their followers. == == == Complexities: Nowhere in scripture is the Christian ever encouraged to look for and cling to any of the supposedly good things of these false teachers and hypocrites. Now I will say this – I think some Christians have a hard time seeing the hypocrisy of wierwille because of their fondness for scripture – especially if PFAL / wierwille first introduced them to the Bible and/or serious Bible study…I can relate to that – being raised Roman Catholic, my experience was mostly with religious ceremony, Latin phrases, no knowledge of what was in the Bible / zero doctrine unless you count catechism… For me, PFAL was like taking swimming lessons from a really bad instructor; wierwille didn’t really know how to swim but I guess his display of overconfidence encouraged me to jump in the pool – after the class I enjoyed reading the Bible – used to read it all the way through several times a year…but if PFAL was swimming lessons – then life is the actual test to see if you can sink or swim…and honestly it was pretty much sink for most of my TWI involvement… I say that because a doctrine or theory may sound really cool but it’s not really worth much until it’s put into practice – when the rubber meets the road. You know – does the theory work? I think those claims of benefits on the back of the PFAL green sign-up card were just that - claims…they didn’t really work…when the rubber meets the road - it goes nowhere …a lot of the stuff promised in PFAL kinda makes me think of the dead-man’s float I learned at day camp (CYO Day Camp - - oh boy! ). The fact that they called it the DEAD man’s float still bothers me to this day…does that mean the poor guy didn’t learn to swim? ... but anyway I digress…the dead-man’s float is taught to beginning swimmers – you get in a prone floating position – face down in the water – your legs are extended back and your arms forward…and you just float…you don’t go anyway. Now you can imagine yourself as a great swimmer but the dead-man’s float will never win a gold medal in the Olympics…maybe in curling…if you were the stone and liked getting pushed around. Jesus addressed the issue of hypocrisy: Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat, so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practice… Matthew 23: 1-3 ESV …And I think this is where a lot of TWI followers act as if they are mentally incapacitated if someone challenges wierwille’s man-of-god persona. To a lot of the general public, wierwille’s sermon on the love of God / I Corinthians 13 is solid gold and it is inconceivable to them that wierwille had a double standard going on...in that regard you might want to check out a certain post on how was your identity changed thread ....the essence of what he taught and modeled by example to the way corps was that the Bible’s moral code of things like don’t steal, don’t lie, don’t commit adultery really only applies to the spiritually immature; you don’t hear about that in PFAL – where in an early session he makes a big deal over the two great commandments – love God and neighbor. Another thing about complexities and I think you have a valid point there, Mike - i agree - we should look at the good....and the bad...and all points in between – in trying to sort through my TWI experience – I think it is essential to survival that I have a healthy attitude while in the process of sorting it all out. That’s learning to accept it all – the good and bad experiences, successes, failures, insights, emotions, etc. as part of life. A great thread to check out is cult survivors: the duality of life life is complex...and sometimes we want to shy away from the ugly uncomfortable awkward parts of reality...we want to cling to the familiar and the comfortable...but i think a healthy attitude looks at the whole enchilada...now that doesn't mean you have to eat it all at once ....take it one bite at a time ...and remember to let your food settle before you start thinking about desert - my mom taught me that... ...dear, Grease Spotters, love and peace…and have a good night.

As to WHY politics is not allowed on the GSC, the answer is long. Briefly stated, it's not allowed anymore. The GSC is not about politics, but allowing discussions of politics took over the board, monopolized the moderators, and almost doomed the board. No more politics, period. So, let's keep politics off this thread. As to whether Billy Graham had some issues, problems, etc, please make your specifics. If I have to do the homework, I won't bother and I'll at least suspect it's a bluff. The Billy Graham I've heard of was as free of corruption as you can get as a person- someone who did his best to avoid situations where he might consider sinning. (That really cuts the odds down.) I'm sorry to hear he went, but he had a long life- partially due to clean living (vpw died in his 60s after decades of chronic smoking and drinking.)

Bush? The Burning Bush? No...not Moses' burning bush... Take a look a The Washington Times Front-Page June 29, 1989 Headline article about The Burning Bush. Did Bushie's friend Billy know Bushie allowed call boys late-night access into the White House? Need more proof? There are videos of public meetings showing Bushie's tender physical contact with a caller... Dr. Carol Burns also has a well-researched and documented book "Billy Graham and His Friends: A Hidden Agenda?" that looks much deeper than just the goody-two-shoes facade of TV preachers' football stadium revivals... It's not just "The Way"...... it's The Way of Power and Corruption. Put Preachers on Pedestals in the Past

Just heard this. A great loss. A brother in Christ of whom the Lord will be saying, "Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master's happiness!"

OK, watched another episode last night. Saw so many parallels: L Ron Hubbard = VPW (both creepy old guys) David Miscavige (the successor) = LCM (the successor) Sea Org = Way Corps Clear the Planet = Word Over the World "We are Special, the only ones who can save the world." = "We alone know the true rightly divided word." Billion Year Contract = Way Corps unbreakable lifetime commitment (doulos/dog soldier) Declared / Disconnected = Mark and Avoid Being responsible for what happens to you = Believing equals receiving, Spiritual Responsibility for others, What you fear will happen Suppressive act = Being negative, not being likeminded, being out of fellowship, not "blessing" others Psychiatric help is forbidden = no need for psychiatric treatment since it's your fault for not renewing your mind

Comparison and contrast are always such personal things. There are similarities and differences between the Way and Scientology. The main difference I see is the method. What is believed, taught. The means I see are remarkably similar, the ways to control people. The means are what we never discussed in the Way. It was always implied behind-the-scenes tactics. This actually is a great first place to start to detect cult behavior, where a good deal of the expectations placed upon the individual are unwritten ones. Similar people control methods that I can see .... Intense involvements in classes Strict policy in classes - high involvement, many hours, time, money invested 2.5 hours a day being a "good Scientologist" or "good follower" Daily schedule Early prayer and study - "lift lists" - all leadership and the ministry Study - Put aside all other reading material - study classes and collaterals Witnessing - 2x2 accosting people in malls late night, door to door like the JW's, outreach "events" to put together classes in a weekend Meetings - 3x per week minimum as opposed to 1x or 2x for church minimum. Classes - always something to run people through. These are the artifacts of the organization Crews - "service" is always emphasized, and especially "Adv. Class Grads" - whatever free time you did have should be volunteering Programs - "spiritual elite" - eventually over time, many / all will be talked into this Behavior is modified and controlled through doctrine Caste system formed by class and program attendance (Grad., Int. Grad, Adv. Class Grad, WOW vet, Corps) Friendships formed at the same caste level - leads to life decisions Corps marry Corps, AC grads similar, etc. Hate for technology/internet - censorship of reading material HQ technology 20 years behind Only advancement is into Search Engine Technology - to hide criticism of group Members encouraged to "stay off internet" Sea Org / Way Corps Forced abortions or leave the org Marriage and Family of less importance Rules against marriage related to caste system Rules against pregnancy Rules against pets Unwritten rules showing true commitment No coaching kids sports and missing the STS Extreme dissent detecting tactics Political "assassinations" of rivals Abusive behavior by top leadership Screaming/cursing Demotions and punishment assignments Probation as a punishment threat/tool Shunning Hyper-intensified paranoia of top leader singling out any imagined slight or resistance All standing in org is totally framed by this paranoia People's lives are ruined for the slightest little thing Borderline poverty level salaries for Staff "Management" salaries for Pres. Cabinet - $80-90k - rural town - many buy houses in New Knoxville or surrounding areas paying cash Ultimate golden handcuffs - org success, financial stability College options for kids - Bowling Green University - can attend on Pell grants for free because of poverty level parents salary Kids avoid debt and running afoul of policy Wow, and I thought there would be a few bullet points at max.

merge Wierwille(not public version), Martindale, and Geer, suddenly you have Jim Jones, David Koresh, Dave Miscavege, each individually a bully, tyrant, and dictator

More parallels - in Scientology there is always the promise of achieving a "higher level" if you just keep going, if you just spend more of your money for more classes and those sessions where you hold the cans and get interrogated. There is the highest level where you go Clear. For us it was also class after class until TaDa! The Advanced Class, the Holy Grail of spiritual enlightenment. And as it is in Scientology, once you get there it's not what it's cracked up to be but wait! There's another way to "grow spiritually". Go WOW. Even better go in the Corps! Then climb the ladder. Wow those ordained people must really be attuned spiritually. They must be walking by revelation all the time so if they tell me to do something it must be right even if I think it isn't because I'm at an inferior level. Like those levels in Scientology. Once you are Clear you are There. But once you get there it too is not all it's cracked up to be. And the money. The total disregard in both organization for the sacrifices being made to give and give at the expense of the members. An exScientology remarked that in the parking lot you could see the fancy cars and the beaters. The top echelon get the good ones and the run of mill underlings give and give and can't afford a decent car. And both organizations take the money and funnel it back into the organization and do nothing for those who give it for the purpose of the underlings (Joe Believer) is but to serve and give and give. Like in TWI we were told we would be "blessed" to serve. But where was this elusive "blessing" we were supposed to receive? Those at The Top sure seemed blessed. Surely God would bless us too if we just kept going and going. The former Scientologists in this series all shared that they reached a breaking point that it was IT and they did whatever it took to get out. Just as many of us did. When we knew that we never would get that carrot on a stick and we'd had it. One of the exScientoligists, upon being asked how much he had gotten over it all, said he sometimes went days without thinking about Scientology, Same here. But just as they say, it's never totally over. But they have gone on and reclaimed their lives as we have. Leah Remini left Scientology in 2013 and said some things about what she's going through and I could relate to that phase when you're making that transition, which to me is the first few years. Then you're living your life free of that cult and don't think of it for days.