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Hi Grease Spotters, Just wanted to mention why I am incredulous with some of the posts on this thread (like the ones quoted above). It just seems like a trick to outmaneuver other posters who make legitimate points…someone claims they are that far ahead of the curve when issues like lying and sexual immorality are being discussed on this thread – he claims he was looking into these issues many years ago…. I guess he thinks I should give credence to his take on the issues being discussed…Sorry, but I say that’s bull$hit. He states “I was on fire with researching the phenomenon of lying. I mean even to the point of making crude lie detectors at home.” I mean…come on…why? Is he trying to beat a lie detector test? Does he think he’s lying to himself? This is so ridiculous... Sorry but my bull$hit detector is spiking big time on that one…But wait…it gets better… He also said “I was in touch with scientists who were top polygraph experts. Later in life I hung around with brain scientists who often dealt with what they call "confabulation" where various varieties of brain damage can cause a victim to lie profusely and way beyond credulity.” Has anyone looked up confabulation here’s an excerpt from that link: “Confabulation is a memory disturbance in which a person confuses imagined scenarios with actual memories with no intent to deceive. Most cases of confabulation are the result of dementia, brain damage, aneurism or Wernicke-Korsakoff syndrome (thiamine deficiency due to alcoholism). People who confabulate stories are often very confident in their memories even after being shown contradicting evidence. These stories can vary from slight truth alterations to completely unbelievable or bizarre tales. Even when the stories are completely false, the person appears coherent, consistent and relatively normal. Confabulations are classified into one of two categories: provoked and spontaneous. A provoked confabulation is when a patient invents an untrue story in response to a question. These tend to be quite common among patients with amnesia or dementia. A spontaneous confabulation is a more rare occurrence and involves the telling of an untrue story with no apparent motivation.” == == == == Considering the person’s dishonest tendencies on many threads (like frequently changing the subject to avoid answering direct questions, rarely provides proof of claims,often resorts to using logical fallacies, ignores facts and evidence, often presents skewed alternate versions of wierwille’s history) I am tempted to think his claims of studying so much about lying, the brain and confabulation are actually a confabulation of his experience as a patient in some study on confabulation. == == == == == Reviewing a few of his statements: “we’d do a grad night and work “adultery” and “fornication” from KJV, Young’s, Bullinger, Interlinear, etc. We also collected about 9 rationalizations to casual sex that had floated around sparingly for years. I think the “spiritually mature” thing was one of them. I was surprised and delighted when I first saw the JS paper on adultery. He had about 14 appendixes that were the same rationalizations we had 9 of. We had done a mini JS paper in 1979ish. “ and “I mentioned that that sounded familiar to me, because my twig did a mini-research work on adultery and bs rationalizations that were popping up around the ministry and causing trouble. In other words, me and my twig were blowing the whistle on the bs rationalization “spiritual maturity” a few years before JS did with his paper. “ Yeah…my bull$hit detector is registering 11 on all that…and my bull$hit detector only goes up to 10…I actually had to draw a number 11 on the scale to accommodate the input overload. …but anyway…I seriously doubt much of what’s been said in the above posts because it hits me as an unabashed ploy - stating one has worked on acquiring expert knowledge or expertise on something WAY BEFORE anyone else. This is really just a childish game of one-upmanship…not buying it…nuff said.

“dulled to questionable behavior, and therefore a pushover for any rationalization. Dulled to it yes; spiritually mature, pretty unlikely.” Hmmmmm… wierwille supposedly the most “spiritually mature” in TWI had a knack for desensitizing folks to questionable behavior (please see the thread TWI's Sedative to the Conscience for details on that)…yeah “spiritually mature” was just code for religious hypocrisy. ya know “great” sexual predators think alike –consider the recent scandal of that sexual predator scum physician of MSU and how he exploited privilege and trust; check out this link in Psychology Today here's a snippet of that article: “Betrayal, violation of trust, and remembrance of the inappropriate acts can leave abuse survivors with trauma-related symptoms. Conditions such as post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), anxiety, depression, complex PTSD, eating disorders, substance abuse, alcohol dependence, or a disordered personality (i.e., borderline personality) are not uncommon after abuse. Understanding the psychological and neurobiological impact of trauma on survivors can help the abused and those who love them pursue treatment and support. Heinous acts that violate our trust and body often disrupt neurochemistry and lead to dysregulation of the emotional system within our brain. These neurobiological changes can leave a survivor in a state of suffering, pain, and anger long after the abuse.” == == == == "I missed out on a lot of fun, but it looks like I missed out on a lot of misery also." Mike, that seems like such a callous and flippant thing to say. please re-read the above excerpt from Psychology Today , think about this from the victim's point of view...what if you were one of the women victimized by wierwille? Then how much admiration would you have for him and all the stuff he preached about ? would you be so quick to come to his defense? == == == as far as the rationalization goes – that’s what the predator does - NOT the victim! From Wikipedia on rationalization “In psychology and logic, rationalization or rationalisation (also known as making excuses) is a defense mechanism in which controversial behaviors or feelings are justified and explained in a seemingly rational or logical manner to avoid the true explanation, and are made consciously tolerable—or even admirable and superior—by plausible means. It is also an informal fallacy of reasoning.” == == == wierwille violated the privilege and trust of the people he supposedly served – he didn’t give two $hits about personal boundaries…you’ve heard of doctor’s without borders…wierwille was a fake doctor without boundaries.

Maybe, this is........ ......seems like this thread has been all over the map...... .......but, it just seems to me, that once again another thread was hijacked and all the focus is about Mike. And, for those who've been long participants of GreaseSpot........know that these wierwille-defenders show up time and again to derail or diffuse the essence of the thread topic. I wouldn't be surprised if another 20 pages were added as Mike's proclivities and innuendos banter back and forth. Of these "wierwille-defenders"..........did any one of them EVER change their opinion? ........even when a corps girl was drugged and sexually assaulted and gave her first-hand account, wierwille-defenders REFUSED to believe it. ........her heart crying out to be heard.....deeply abused, deeply broken ........the only deep way she could convey what happened to her in twi.........was "soul stealing" ........adultery vs soul stealing ** A poster took to her defense on page 8........to try and knock sense into this wierwille-defender. [ 15 years ago ] ........one of the great threads on GSC.......to try and engage a wierwille-defender to stop and think deeper.....

I'm going back to taking another drink when someone's the "best in their field" or "top of their field." I think the business of "confabulation" is relevant here- the real meaning. We're getting posts of CONFABULATED MEMORIES. We're getting "I wish I'd done this" conflated with "And here's what I did" and the conflater, like other conflaters, isn't even aware they're doing it. However, they've heard this before and remembered the TERM but not the meaning. Naturally, the rest of us aren't going to exactly swallow the sandwich that's being offered.

Really ?!?! you say "The reason I constructed home made lie detectors was so I could hook them up to the leaves of common house plants." that's totally different from the reason you gave in an earlier post ( see below) where you said "This thread is fascinating to me. Before my involvement with the ministry I was on fire with researching the phenomenon of lying. I mean even to the point of making crude lie detectors at home. I was in touch with scientists who were top polygraph experts." Let me guess...did you think your plants were lying to you? geez Louise - I now had to draw a number 22 on my bull$hit detector - and I think you've hit the daily double

Yeah, Rocky................and then some !!! 15 years ago........this 9th corps girl spoke out here at GSC, adultery vs soul stealing

I tried to hit "like" multiple times but it won't let me.

Actually T-Bone quoted Mike. Mike, Mike, Mike... spiritually mature people unlikely to be a pushover for rationalizations? I'd say you've got to be kidding, but sadly, I doubt you are. Earlier, I asked about a definition or description of spiritual maturity. No response from you (or anyone else here... likely because that's bull$hit twi jargon). For you to suggest that "maturity can be easily miscalculated," suggests you believe it is not only not twi jargon but actually an objective phenomenon. Please, by all means, explain to us how to calculate this objective phenomenon so we don't miscalculate it. Perhaps a more objective reality is that EVERY human is subject to falling for The Confidence Game. People (like us) who bought into Wierwille's ministry and pflap DID fall for the con. From the book review link, Wierwille exploited our anxieties too... about eternal life, about truth, about the need for belonging... and then some.

alright my Yahtzee got a Bingo...hallelujah !!! anybody up for Parcheesi ?

Now, Grace please don’t be upset - I wasn’t plagiarizing …just wanted to invoke your wonderful name and catchphrase I thought of yelling Yahtzee but that only works in Vegas

Hey, Mike, did you know "lock-box" comes from an old Aramaic phrase that can be literally translated "sweep it under the carpet."? Don't tell anyone, though, it'll just be our own little secret

I must say Saint Vic taught you well. You want to lecture, but when it comes to you following what your lecturing others to do, you go by the don't do as I do, do as I say motto. Does this include accusing others of using pure evil models? Does this include accusing others of trying to trick you? Does this include accusing others of judging you? Perhaps you should work on becoming a worthy example before lecturing us.

I tend to agree. Btw (not a response to waysider), I tend to think Mike is in quicksand over his head in this discussion. He can't even recognize rhetorical questions (that answer themselves). It takes me back to when I said something about his quasi-intellectual bull$hit. Mike doesn't even come close to writing as if he has a background of examining anything in detail to suggest he has analytical or research skills on par with academic practitioners.

Just an IMHO here: I believe Wierwille's "all sins are equal" was really a preemptive ploy on his part to silence any dissidents . It certainly explains the lock-box and "not thinking evil of your brothers and sisters in Christ"...like a "You're just as guilty as me." sort of thing.

Yes, there were some pretty harsh consequences for David’s sinfulness – and I don’t think that comes as a surprise to anyone who studies the cultural background of the Bible or for that matter, anyone that has some sense of right and wrong…but your comments here make me want to touch on something you said in the previous post: I think it’s only a matter of time for the moral ambiguity of TWI to wear down - or perhaps anesthetize the conscience of followers…like bringing a pot to boil slowly, the frog will probably sit in it until he cooks…many former way corps on Grease Spot have attested to fact that wierwille taught one thing to the general public “the word means what it says and says what it means” for example…but to the way corps he would often promote the idea that one could become so spiritually mature that you could handle something that a lot of less "spiritually minded" folks couldn't - - like adultery...that's probably one of the biggest tricks of how people got fooled into thinking there's no degrees of sin.

Perhaps you’re overthinking the issue...many cultures / societies past and present follow a similar dictum of “punishment should fit the crime” whether in criminal or civil cases...and usually within a judicial framework- many details are taken into account such as if others were harmed and to what extent by the perpetrator of the crime.