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Well, this thread has wandered off point somewhat. This was the point: I'm seeing lots of defensiveness from Mike, but nothing about empathy or understanding about the hurt caused by TWI. And nothing of any personal growth by Mike. Knock it off, folks. Let Mike slink back into the woodwork, as he (says he) wishes to do. He might then find time to ponder just a little on what he's too busy defending himself against. But I'm guessing that this thread will meander on for another dozen pages, with Mike continuing to offer provocative comments and not empathetic ones.

Hardship and Burdens............were heaped upon corps grads and advanced class followers with each passing year. The fact that there is a 21-page (and counting) discussion on "the secret messaging of wierwille's writings" is sleight-of-hand and moot............in my opinion. The Scriptures give us explicit examples and warn us to beware of this type of deception and seduction. Words and fair speeches without confirming results are little more than intellectually theorizing intent. OMG.......wierwille could NOT do what he claimed. Not one time did I ever see him operate "the big SIX manifestations." I have posted of an incident in the BRC where he adamantly proclaimed an 8th corps guy was possessed with devil spirits.......YET, wierwille did nothing but yell, fume and stomp out. Pppfffftttt. THE REASON CORPS STARTED EXITING...............more rapidly by 1980-->.........was hardships and burdens. The burden to attend corps week and roa each year was unsustainable. Anyone with a modicum of empathy for these increasing burdens could SEE THIS. When I was in Canada as the country coordinator.......I had many of these conversations with way corps in Vancouver, B.C. and Calgary, Alberta. It was a HUGE deal to take 3-weeks off EACH YEAR for corps wk/roa. As more corps married........more pregnancies, more babies. Reality was at the front door. Corps grads needed a career path that would strengthen and sustain their families. The burdens to keep apace with the cult-mandates was escalating. Maybe, that is why I highlight the Luke 4:18 reference. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I don't care how many times someone tries to explain to me "the secret writings of wierwille"............the man was a narcissist, a drunkard, a predator and a bully. He fits every description of a "senses man" drunk on power. I loathe everything about him.......his deception, his cloak of authority, his plagiarism, his sexual predation over corps women I knew and his unrepentant wantonness. To the very end............Wierwille's Wantonness .

Do you have some early Greek, Hebrew, or Aramaic text that rightfully translates it that way or are you just deciding that's how it must be according to your private interpretation of PFLAP?

Occam's razor would suggest that regardless of whether JC ever lied, "All people are liars" retains it's veracity. It's a generalization that is accurate. IF JC never lied, it could rightfully be said that he would be the exception that proves the rule. Further, I think Mike's Gobbledygook is just a lame attempt to translate his PFLAP belief into something that addresses the questions of modern Christians. I don't buy it.

I don’t think this discussion has really been about if “the word” works or not...or even if one’s personal application of “the word” works or not... It’s just my opinion but it looks to me like this thread (as well as some other threads ) involving a certain poster has been more about what does NOT work in a discussion - things like dishonesty, logical fallacies, changing the subject, dodging questions, etc. - which many Grease Spotters have tried to point out and even assist that certain poster so that there is clarification on exactly what his point is.

My guess would be no. Shall we take something a liar says as fact? How do we know when he's telling the truth and when he's lying?

As far as I'm concerned, he could be a member of the Church of Latter Day Smerfs, I wouldn't care. As you were saying, it his journey and his problem. But once he crosses the line and involves me, he makes it my problem. As I've said before, you don't go on atheist sites and try witnessing to them, nor do you go on communist websites to chat up the benefits of capitalism, nor do you go to a socialist website to proclaim the joys of being a republic. Common sense should tell you your going to create a flame war. I dedicated 42 years of my life to PLAF. It was the biggest mistake of my life. Tell me, Allen (to use someone elses metaphor) What if someone told you there was this four star restaurant with the most fantastic food. You go there and you find the food is spoiled and full of roaches and maggots. You watch and the cook doesn't wash his hands. So you realize you've wasted your money. Then you go on the net and someone else is trying to sell how great that four star restaurant is. What do you do? Add to that the hero worship of Saint Vic's dark soul. (I can name good things Saint Vic did; can Mike tell us some evil things he did? Like I said hero worship) Then include Mike's head games (he has a tendancy to insult people, then when he gets the predicted result, he says he wants peace) and dishonesty (claiming posting quotes from PLAF is too much work, yet thinks nothing of posting a half a page on one of his theories; claiming he doesn't know common bibical characters) and you'll see he's busy creating his own problems.

Jesus Christ is the exception because he was not of Adam's bloodline. He was not "of Adam" or "of the man." I'd translate the verse "All of Adam [the man] are infused with lies." This is an ownership issue. The adversary owns Adam's race. Jesus Christ is the second Adam, and never was owned by the adversary, the liar-in-chief.

Oh, but Rocky, surely you understand that the general membership (aka peons) give (physically) in this world, and the same receive spiritually. Only "spiritually." All that ABS goes to helping people in need. You know, like the trustees and higher-ups who have devoted their lives to service of said peons, those who've given up jobs that they could have held at Fortune 500 companies, and such like.

Rocky,

Ok, sincerely offered explanation, sincerely accepted. I'll do my best to make this brief, simple, and relevant. ========================== What's a rationalization? A rationalization is a MASK. Someone wants to do something, so they PRETEND they have a rational reason for wanting to do it. They construct a fake reason that SOUNDS rational, and says that's why they want to do it. It's NOT rational, but it's trying to fake it. The point of a rationalization is someone wanting to do something and looking for an excuse to do it even though they don't have a sensible reason. What's a False Dilemma? A False Dilemma is a type of rationalization. Someone wants to do something, so they construct 2 things- 1) a mask for what they WANT to do, to make it sound much better than it is; and 2) a grotesque parody of realty that represents what they want all the other possibilities to look like- in order to make their choice look better by comparison. The next step is to pretend that there are exactly two-and ONLY 2- possibilities- the one they want, and the hideous option they invented to make their choice look better by comparison. In this case, Mike, you're offering exactly 2 options: 1) believe what you want to believe- which you're claiming is fantastic and only a fool would give it up for any reason; or 2) completely discard everything you believe all at once to embrace this "Pure Evil" construct you've invented and named that bears no resemblance to what anyone is actually SAYING. The obvious thing about this, Mike, is that it's a giveaway. It's a basic strategy for someone who has SQUAT. Every person relies on what they have going for them in a discussion. "If you have the law on your side, hammer the law. If you have the facts on your side, hammer the facts." Someone relying on making something up to contrast with their position just to look good is like someone who goes out to singles bars-making sure to bring along an acquaintance who's incredibly ugly to sit next to in order to look like a better option. You keep speaking of this "Pure Evil" mockery you've invented, and expect people to take you seriously. I once said "I disagree" to someone, and they began making up all sorts of things they IMAGINED I agreed with or condemned, like condemning mixed marriages (Mrs Wolf was amused to hear me tell her that one.) Do you think that person was taken seriously as someone ready to have a discussion? If you really want to discuss what different people here believe about vpw, for example, we CAN explain it briefly and clearly- and NONE of it conforms to your "PURE EVIL" construct.

It just occurred to me that the organization's practices with regard to doing good things for people in need stands in violation/contrast to its proclaimed belief in "giving = receiving." If the organization truly believed that axiom, perhaps over the last several decades it wouldn't have been quite so tightfisted about helping the unfortunate.

Shouldn't the translation be "Most humans are liars"? The "humans" part of the translation is there to include women. But why the "most"? Well, Jesus Christ was a man, did he lie?

Rocky! What a fantastic little video on Ravens! I love stuff like this, it not only shows the complexities of the Animal Kingdom, but also it fascinates me that God put on the hearts of certain people to be able to watch and study these creatures from the littlest of insects to the most mighty of beasts. Tactical Deception. That's a new phrase for my vocabulary! Men do seem to be able to revert to the behavior of animals sometimes. And not to knock animals, they have to do it for survival. People seem to do it for power and greed.

Hey Grease Spotters, I just have to say, it’s almost comical to see someone claim wierwille is not their hero and yet in the same paragraph whitewash wierwille (aka the plagiarist – a known liar and thief…swindler…sexual predator…adulterer…greedy weasel… drunkard) so as to suggest he’s God’s chosen vessel “to deliver His Word to us sinners.” How nauseating and illogical is that ?! ...It would be counterproductive to all the work God did through Jesus Christ ! I mean…really? God made a plagiarist – a known liar and thief…swindler…sexual predator…adulterer…greedy weasel… and drunkard - His authorized agent to deliver His Word to us…that’s not how God works! take for example: 9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God…I Corinthians 6: 9-11 ESV You know, I understand that we’re all sinners – we’re human - - imperfect - - but what about all those verses that talk about Christians forsaking their sinful habits…we're not just sinners now - - we're redeemed sinners - and God expects us to act like it! Like in the above passage quoted – it notes in verse 11 "and such WERE some of you…” – past tense. wierwille THE hypocrite was an unrepentant sinner – a plagiarist – a known liar and thief…swindler…sexual predator…adulterer…greedy weasel… and a drunkard until the day he died...folks that want to put wierwille on the same plane as any of those who wrote the scriptures need to show chapter and verse where God authorizes an unrepentant willful unconscionable sinner to deliver his message to believers. Show me anywhere in the Bible where God endorsed hypocrites ! talk about the more redundant lie...we've seen this time and again on various threads - wierwille-admirers intent on whitewashing the hypocrite! Geez Louise ! promote wierwille as an authorized agent to deliver God’s message?! ...I guess a person’s hero-picker could be broken if it’s not already jacked-up with some troll-agenda or got sucked into the black hole of wierwille’s delusion…regardless I would recommend they seek professional counseling…cuz that’s just flat out weird to encourage folks to follow a sick fvck like wierwille…I'm starting to think this thread is about the growing pain of the wierwille-obsessed. == == == == a side note to any folks still in TWI, if any of this makes sense to you – then get out NOW ! Do not pass the cornucopia. Get out now and don’t look back. What are you waiting for? Do you expect Jesus Christ to personally knock you off your WOW-mobile? It’s a lot less painful or embarrassing to take heed of the light being shed on TWI’s dark underbelly by Grease Spot Café. The Way International's dark legacy will continue to gnaw at your soul and render you totally ineffective to serve the Lord Jesus Christ. Do not fvck with toxic doctrine & practice…tell your cult-leadership they can kiss your a$$ goodbye. nuff said…love & peace

"All men are liars." from Psalms 116:11 Of course, more recent translations/versions don't make this the exclusive domain of the male gender. We can either be alarmed and indignant about it or we can accept that it's the nature of things (a fact of life) for individuals and groups (organizations). Academics have pondered the issue, probably for eons. Interpersonal Deception Theory (IDT) explores the interrelation between the sender's communicative meaning and the receiver's thoughts and behavior in deceptive exchanges. Then there's looking at deception solely from the perspective on the deceived person. When does one first recognize and realize that team sports often rely heavily on deception? Baseball -- the hidden ball trick; stealing signs (either baserunning signs or catchers calling for certain pitches). There's more of them just in baseball. In basketball, there's the head fake (then passing the "rock" to a different offensive player or taking the shot). In football, if the quarterback doesn't become masterful at looking at one receiver and throwing to others, he gets intercepted too frequently to be successful.

I wanted to thank you for your heart and work in doing what was right in your time and ongoing into today. I agree with your conclusion and can only with you tell the truth now. Peace brothers.

Yes, Chockfull......The Way of Canada was/is registered as a non-profit entity under Canadian governance. All monies (donations/gifts/tithes) stayed in Canada and were documented and all expenses coded under strict restraints in formal ledger and end-of-year accounting. Then, The Way of Canada submitted these records to a yearly audit by a reputable accounting firm. As I remember, the fee of $5,000 for annual audit was deemed a prudent investment to keep The Way of Canada in good standing with governing officials. In retelling this experience and situation in Canada, I am reminded of the "giving and receiving" that I experienced during those three years in Canada. Quite honestly, it seemed like we used way magazines, teaching tapes and yearly themes from twi as a guideline rather than dogma. From Moncton, New Brunswick to Vancouver, British Columbia........there were pockets of believers who didn't care a whit about what was happening at twi's headquarters. The language barriers, the subcultures and demographics of Toronto and Montreal, most notably....... added a vast array of challenges and "liberties," for sure. As you stated above, the Board of Dummies were heavy-handed in exploiting the people........and therefore, limb/region guys didn't have the opportunity that I had. Perhaps, if I'd "run it up the flagpole" all the way to Howard Allen, who oversaw I.O. ..........he might have shot it down. But.......I didn't ask him. I believed that I was walking with God.......and allocating the $4,000 for dental work to a corps grad in need was what I did. Again......I was trying to walk in his steps [Luke 4:18].

So many failures by veepee............. Zero Corps program........[check] Instilled "Lock-Box" teaching as a Principled Pillar.........[check] Built on a Foundation of Unaccountability to Anyone.........[check] Tried to Update Teaching/Filming of foundational class at PFAL '77........[check] No Accreditation at The Way College of Emporia...........[check] Lauding Camp Gunnison as Premier Vacation Spot and Restaurant for Way Believers...........[check] Sent out corps letters as stop-gap of hemorrhaging corps grads.............[check] The Sno-Way.......an all-terrain vehicle attempt-built by Grumelot and another Family Corps guy......[check] Putting Mantle on Martindale as 2nd prez...............hahahahahahaha.............[check] Word in Culture........Fine Arts House, "Cultural Center," High Country Caravan, etc........splat....[check] The Victors Quartet..................nothing like killing off youthful zeal..........LOL.......[check] Athlete of the Spirit terminology......---> AOS Production.........oops......[check] Corps Exploitation and Labor at corps wk/roa.........not sustainable........[check] Pharisaic Example of "Desiring to be Seen & Served".................[check] NO demonstrating God's Power to the people.......NONE............[check] Flaunting Smoking/Drinking at late night corps mtgs..............[check] Used Motor Coach for Sexual Predation..............[check] Wrecked Twig-Hopper in Ontario and silenced all to secrecy.......[check] Lies and Cover-up of Cause of Death.....CANCER...........[check] Mystique of "man of god"...........like dust in the wind........[check]

THIS WAS WIERWILLE'S ALL NINE ALL THE TIME...... Wierwille was a narcissist....... Grandiosity with expectations of superior treatment from other people Fixated on fantasies of power, success, intelligence, attractiveness, etc. Self-perception of being unique, superior, and associated with high-status people and institutions Needing continual admiration from others Sense of entitlement to special treatment and to obedience from others Exploitative of others to achieve personal gain Unwilling to empathize with the feelings, wishes, and needs of other people Intensely envious of others, and the belief that others are equally envious of them Pompous and arrogant demeanor