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I knew this woman, but not well. Like most of us, she was idealistic, kind, and good intentioned. So why did she stay so long? IMO, time spent in the cult is relative to a person's needs. What strikes me is how a person misses or denies or misinterprets warning signs. I suppose part of it has to do with survival. Like her, I did that for years, too, especially the misinterpreting or rationalizing of warning signs. Psychologists tell us it's because there's a need in a person to cling to the status quo ... a variety of reasons are clear, i.e. fear of loss of community, loss of certainty, loss of feeling secure about "knowing the truth." I think we all can relate. It's a need so great that admitting what we're doing or believing or giving our loyalty to is bad, or a fraud, or a con, is just too much. We'd crack. Don't we all remember when we "woke up" and how hard that was to admit we had been duped or abused or stolen from? For some of us we nearly did crack up. Some I know have spent time in mental health hospitals, or are in serious therapy, or on heavy medication, or have lost themselves to alcohol or drugs. Or suicide. Breaking up is hard to do. Some people had a casual involvement in TWI. Others were encased in it like in an airtight plastic bag. Breaking free is HARD. I think it's a miracle any of us are here and able to compose a complete sentence. Maybe I should speak for myself, but truly, for those of us who were sold out for so long and gave so much, creating another life post-TWI has been VERY hard work and if it weren't for many good people (many are here on GSC), healing love, education, and time, I can't imagine what would have become of me... So If you ever read this, Melanie, STAY STRONG and breathe deep. It's possible to heal a little every day with love, education, and time. And I ditto what Skyrider said, that Offshoot groups formed by former WAY leaders are not a good option because in general they repeat the patterns from TWI. Besides, bottom line is that the Bible is always open to interpretation by man. The notion of "the accuracy of The Word" is just that, just a notion. No one has it. It can't be had. But that doesn't mean you cannot find valuable things in the Bible. Just question what people tell you it "means." Cheers, Penworks a.k.a. Charlene Lamy (Bishop) Edge I can be reached at http://charleneedge.com/Contact

Maybe your “insulated” approach is what spared you a lot of visceral damage that a cult can inflict on those who were much more involved in the organization…that’s just a guess…but I will say this, I don’t think that the many of the ideas in PFAL / way-doctrine can survive for very long when coming into contact with reality and so its continued “existence” is really dependent upon the proper management of the TWI hierarchy to keep reality at bay by any means possible…teaching people to NOT go by their five senses, that spiritual matters are not dependent on our reason, that the devil and his subordinates marshal everything against way-believers, etc…a lot of it boils down to how TWI taught folks to process any information they take in. “Growing pains” is an interesting title for this thread. I found this on growing pains: Despite the name "growing pains," there is no firm evidence that growing pains are linked to growth spurts. Instead, growing pains may simply be muscle aches due to intense childhood activities that can wear your child's muscles out. These activities include running, jumping, and climbing. Growing pains seem to be more common after a kid has a particularly full day of sports. from WEB MD I believe for some folks (like myself ) maybe the critical thinking muscles were never fully developed, laid dormant or perhaps atrophied due to staying too long in TWI. After 12 years of involvement, leaving and then trying to figure out what happened to me was a very slow process; but finding Grease Spot was where I experienced the most growing pains…maybe an accelerated process but I’m in charge of the throttle…I started giving those critical thinking muscles a very strenuous workout. But it’s not just an intellectual workout…no…much more than that…it’s the resonance I feel from others with similar experiences…it’s taking in the varied perspectives of others…it’s the exhilarating feeling of being let out of a stifling confinement…a breath of fresh air to the soul…reconnecting with the real world.

sorry - I find it hard to believe you didn’t have some great admiration for wierwille himself back then when in even some more recent threads you often defended him to the hilt in spite of all the facts and evidence to the contrary presented by Grease Spotters. In light of that - I tend to think you were pretty much incapable of separating the ideas from the author of those ideas - as evidenced by the circular logic you used on one particular recent thread: is PLAF god-breathed ?...which often went along the lines of PFAL is god-breathed because wierwille said it’s god-breathed.

(pointing above and to the right of Mike) Look, Mike, there goes the point. First we're not talking about a football team or a corporate board room, we're talking about the family of God and a supposed MOG who's supposed to have a more disipline than natural men on a football team or in a corporate board room. Further, he's supposed to be an example for the rest of us. I mean, if he doesn't obey God with his moral sins, why should I obey God in my venial sins? Second, we're talking about an ideology that made it all possible.

it’s easy to admire someone from afar but it's often a whole other matter when you see them up close and interact with them…and get to know what they're really like...kind of like the thing that happens in an abusive relationship.

EQ = Emotional Intelligence. At times, MUCH more important than IQ. For most people, emotional intelligence (EQ) is more important than one’s intelligence (IQ) in attaining success in their lives and careers. As individuals our success and the success of the profession today depend on our ability to read other people’s signals and react appropriately to them. Therefore, each one of us must develop the mature emotional intelligence skills required to better understand, empathize and negotiate with other people — particularly as the economy has become more global. Otherwise, success will elude us in our lives and careers. “Your EQ is the level of your ability to understand other people, what motivates them and how to work cooperatively with them,” says Howard Gardner, the influential Harvard theorist. (more)

Nice, T-Bone. If our "Christian" beliefs do not enable us to connect better with the world around us, what is the point of those beliefs? We are to love God, AND we are to love fellow humans "as ourselves". We are to LOVE others. Did not Jesus love others enough to GIVE himself and to DIE for all of them, those who knew and cared for him, as well as those who've never heard of him or who reviled him? Yes? Then we are to do the same. We cannot LOVE others without engaging with them. LOVING others involves action, caring, empathy. We have to GIVE of ourselves; what we receive back through his amazing grace [ie, not "payment"] is an amazing understanding of his love for us. Acting in love is how we "grow in every way into him who is the head--Christ" (Eph 4:15). So that's why I'm interested in learning more of Mike's journey into understanding as he explores the threads at the Cafe and learns of other people's stories. How has that helped his understanding grow? How does that help him to help others in his immediate vicinity? How does empathy for others play out in his life?

How much ungodly fruit does TWI have to bear before you recognize it was an ungodly tree?

What your misssing is that it was the ideology of PLAF that made the crapola of TWI possible. Solzhenitsyn said in The Gulag Archipelago: Ideology – that is what gives evildoing its long-sought justification and gives the evildoer the necessary steadfastness and determination. That is the social theory which helps to make his acts seem good instead of bad in his own and other’s eyes, so that he won’t hear reproaches and curses but will receive praise and honors. That was how the agents of the Inquisition fortified their wills: by invoking Christianity; the conquerors of foreign lands, by extolling the grandeur of their Motherland; the colonizers, by civilization; the Nazis by race; and the Jacobins (early and late), by equality, brotherhood, and the happiness of future generations. And TWI used Weirwille Over the World (WOW). The vehicle for this was PLAF.

Just curious - did you learn that from wierwille - aka the plagiarist, sexual predator, narcissist, pathological liar ? and since we’re talking about the big 6 - revelation and power manifestations - can you give some specific incidents from witnessing and in fellowships. fyi: another point on wierwille’s self-referencing and the big 6 - revelation and power manifestations - like all his other claims of greatness - these stories of how God taught him revelation are just that - fabricated stories. Were there any eye-witnesses to any of wierwille’s stories of operating the big 6?

I've held this view TOWARD the Trustees/Directors/Puppeteers...................for a long time. THEY are the Pharisees, the Abusers, the Deceivers.................

Amazing and depressing......the more I hear of wierwille's wholesale destruction of people's lives it astounds me that a solid core of enablers kept the leaks from bursting thru. Some of that Donh0ff/Kn@ve account is in Karl's book, The Cult that Snapped. Edit: In case moderators come by to expunge names, I diffused their identities.

Then....I posted this. Imo, that SAME pre-emptive strike was used when wierwille talked about critics [#4 above] who "go after the man of God" in a personal way.....his life, his clothes, his tie.... "pretty soon we get down to bare facts" (delivered for audience applause & laughter). Translation: Wierwille and his personal life is off-limits from public scrutiny.