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Waysider, stop baiting the silly beggar. Then, he'll have time to present his manifesto or thesis or whatever it is. Baiting him just prolongs the agony (from his PoV) or amusement (from our PoV).

Cho - - cho - - - chugachugachuga - - Chooooo choooo

If I had a buck for every person I've counseled who got bad advice and counseling from Moynihan I could buy us both a couple of dinners at the Wooden Shoe Inn, DWB. None of us were perfect, every one of us in the earliest years you're referring to had challenges, made mistakes. Every one of us got our butts kicked more than once, and deservedly so, in order to get our attention and get us moving in the right direction when we weren't. We were young and learning. The problem with guys like him is they never got the foundation set right. He and Dottie came into the Corps with previous seniority from NC pending evaluation. After the first few months they and several others were bumped into the 3rd Corps and graduated with a year of "Corps training". They were nice but they were skidding - I'll never forget the BS he gave my wife and I after we discussed his a situation I'd observed, and questioned his handling of it. All I wanted was to see it set right, and I was more than willing to talk about it to help, if I could. Instead he blamed ME for not being "spiritually" minded enough to see how he was right....a tactic that became all too common for him as the years progressed. It seemed minor, we moved on - until it blew up in the people's face later that year, as his "counseling" to them failed. He completely disconnected from any involvement or responsibility. He did the same kind of thing for many years after that. He was also famous for never getting his facts straight and making excuses it didn't matter, later. Another thing I learned early on about most of the self declared heavies from the early Corps was that most of them were not successful at witnessing, signing people up for PFAL and under shepherding them over time which was the basic thing being promoted at that time - sign 'em up, get 'em in.. They crowed about everyone else being able to do it and castigated failures but many of the assignments they got they didn't have the kind of godly revival that was seen in the early years in the West and East Coast fellowships, Kansas, and other places, they TALKED a lot about it, "taught", telling others what they should do but were not successful at doing it when it came to actual outreach. 1000's of people heard the Word of God and the "signs, miracles and wonders" abounded, confirming the preaching of Jesus Christ. Frankly I was so youthfully dumb at the time I just assumed "they" knew something I didn't when it was the reverse. Charlene talks about this in her book - if you read in and remember what it was like, it becomes painfully obvious. Picture Donnie Fugit, who just "did it", versus other guys who were more interested in "teaching" ad infinitum what was already in PFAL, while there were assuming positions in the ministry. Did I love Bob - do I today? Absolutely. But everything I've seen and read they've stated they finally saw was "wrong" was wrong for many years prior. I was not happy to see all those people who turned a cold shoulder to God and His people and stayed on there for so many years. Taking all those years to see what they were doing was wrong, they're in need of very very serious rehab. Give them ample space and time to do that. I remember a guy years ago - he'd been a long standing supporter of the Way for years after many of us had left. His wife had dropped out of active participation, he still had half a leg in and it was either on GS or WayDale where he finally posted a copy of a letter he had just sent to Rosalie. It had the tone of - "you know me, I'm a Corps grad, long time supporter and you know how I love the ministry and support it financially and now here I am, I have some recommendations that I think would help you be a better ministry". He offered to come there, meet with her and discuss these things. He expected a positive response - after all, it was HIM, right? They would listen to him, right? He got a turn down and was ignored beyond that, as he reported it - and he was SHOCKED! Why? Because he had the feeling many others had had before him - hey, it's ME, I'm with you on this, I just want to help....! When I saw how this most recent group had bailed out, domino style, what they wrote about it reminded me of the same thing, adding of course that they'd been poking needles in anything that acted legitimate for years themselves. The only good news is they disconnected, for whatever reasons. Time will tell where that leads them.

Mike, just so you know, VPW even said himself that his writings were fallible. Here you go .... PFAL book page 83: "Not all that Wierwille writes will necessarily be God-breathed; not what Calvin said, nor Luther, nor Wesley, nor Graham, nor Roberts, but the Scriptures--they are God-breathed."

This will go on for pages. Then he will eventually vanish. Later, he will claim he answered everybody and provided proof and nobody could dispute him. I don't think he even does it on purpose. He's not seeing the same reality most people are. So, where you see him stall for pages, he "remembers" he actually answered lots of questions. If you want to know what that's like, watch "Lord of the Rings-Fellowship of the RIng", and follow the ring in the scene where Bilbo is supposed to leave it behind as a gift for Frodo. I've shown that scene to people, prefacing it with "follow the ring in this scene", and periodically pausing and asking "Where is the ring now?" to make sure they realize Bilbo's not quite experiencing the reality he thinks he is, at that point. Don't expect Mike to have learned anything, either. He once made a claim about the Bible. I refuted it verse by verse, and ended with a comment that he would probably make the same disproven claim again 6 months later. Sure enough, 6 months later, he did.

Taxidev, as someone who has a bro-in-law directly involved in leadership and the COUNTLESS wrongs he has done to my family and I and others ( including a number of women..I think you get the drift ) I will let you know when we get an apology from him and his wife ! That might tell me something about this r & r group and their motives. That it's taken them 20 years to jump ship ( After the LCM fiasco speaks volumes to me. IMO, they are all a bunch of used up hacks that have realised they aint gonna be getting any support from twi as their sunset years fast approach so are going to use what abs they have for themselves and THEIR families....

I never served at any of the top levels of the Way, but I did graduate from the corpse. I did hold some leadership positions. When I finally left twi, I told God I didn't want to lead again because I was that torn up about having misled people either into the lies or deeper into the lies and slavery of twi. I spent several years after I left reevaluating ALL of my beliefs. I think anyone who leaves needs time to decompress and reevaluate. I wouldn't even read KJV because of the ruts in my brain that led to twi beliefs. I'm still in process.

Some of that R&R leadership group were willing participants in many of the types of misdeeds we have cataloged here including the sexual swinger's club at the top level. While I appreciate their words of contrition, their actions right now exactly mirror the Way's. Whitewash their past, while securing their future by starting a new ministry utilizing their teaching credentials and connections from the past. Starting a new splinter group is not a new thing. There's even threads on "How to Start a Cult" around here, giving pointers to better ways. Some of the old wineskin groups are less harmful than others of the old wineskin groups. For example, I remember talking to Shr0yer and Cl@pp when they left and started CFFM. That's the last group to leave the Way and teach all the good stuff but remove all the bad stuff. I guess they weren't good buddies enough with this group leaving and Shr0yer left it as an inheritance to Tonya his daughter so they can't have the same power over there. So instead joining that group, they need to found a new splinter. So they can have power and influence again. It is another variation of serving their own belly as the Bible states. Their primary interests are their "position" - in society, in this new group they are founding. They are the leaders, the founders, the head cheeses in charge. I mean why couldn't they realize so much about their training is messed up and have the humility to allow others with better training to lead? Like joining a church locally. Or mixing it up with other Christians in the body of Christ. But no, they gravitate towards those that treat them with the same status they had in the Way. It's a ministry founded on alligator tears and fake contrition. It is as Jesus taught, an old wineskin.

Hi Taxidev. Welcome to the Spot! "They have admitted such. And they have expressed their apologies and sorrow for having done any harm to anyone. While they are all adults, they did think they were doing the right thing. Being deceived was not an easy thing to recognize and acknowledge, but that is what they have done. And they have asked for forgiveness." "I don't have a long history with many of these people, but the ones I know personally are incredible men of God, with a strong stand on the Word as opposed to any organization or individual, other then Jesus Christ. It is because of those individuals that I know personally that I am following what they are doing and teaching. I see here that many of you have a plethora of negative experiences with many of them, but I don't. Maybe that's why I am more willing to give them a chance to prove themselves." I have been reading with interest, your several posts concerning R&R. You do have a unique, and much closer view of both TWIt and it's latest Offshoot, R&R, as they exist today, and your firsthand experiences with some of the major actors in both cults. I quoted the first two paragraphs of a post you posted early yesterday morning, because imo, it effectively summarizes your baseline opinions and attitudes toward TWIt and R&R, and it sparked some thoughts on my part that may expand your knowledge of facts which you are most likely not aware of. You say you got involved in TWIt in 1995. By that time Boob and Doody MoneyHands and Michael Fort had already been involved with TWIT for 25 plus years. Moyneyhands officiated at my wedding in 1973, and was in-rez with my wife and I for the one year the 3rd corpse was in-rez with the 4th. Boob and Doody were made "honorary" 3rd corpse grads after that year. Boob got ordained in the fall of 1970 at HQ by dictor Paul in the BRC along with John Lynn and Steve Heefner. Heefner went to The Way East (NY and New England), Lynn to IN, and Moyneyhands to NC and the ECU Way Home. Later, when dictor paul pulled his silent coup/takeover of the Way East in March of 1972, firing Heefner and replacing him with none other than Boob and Doody, I was a full-time TWIt employee at The Way of Long Island. I had first been to ECU in March, 1971 for a "Youth Advance". I went down with Pressed Down and Steve Heefner from NY. That's where I first met Boob and Doody. Then, I was a full-time Branch Leader in Queens/Brooklyn under Steve Perez, when Boob came to be the hatchet-man for dic's putsch. Heefner was fired, Perez quit, and the full-timers in Long Island and NYC all quit and got jobs. That is when my 16 year interaction with boob and Doody began. You said they have apologized with sorrow "for any harm they have done to anyone". Well, they did great harm to me and my family 22 years before you ever heard of TWIt'n'Piffle. I confronted them. They NEVER repented, not to this day nor have they ever apologized. They were adults alright, but they were NOT DECEIVED! They knew EXACTLY what they were doing, and why they were doing it. They knew EVERYTHING and I KNOW what they knew because I confronted them, and da Forehead, and the board of trustees personally for 9 months at HQ in 1986, right up to when I resigned in December of that year. They repeatedly and willingly lied to cover for Wierwille, both dic and Donnie, Howard Allen, Da Forehead and BellaDonna, Rosalie Rivenbark, THEMSELVES and all their ECU pals, who were just loving dic's Ephesians license to sin teachings. I have shared numerous incidents of their lying, manipulative phony "counseling", covering up for all the scores and scores of abusive sex acts committed by their moggie pals, contributing directly to suicides among those who had been raped or molested by their BOT and other "top leadership", in order to guard their "lockboxes" and the man-o-gawd. There are numerous posts for you to review here Taxidev, should you want to know more facts. They did that for 20 years before you ever heard of TWIt! Do you realize how many VICTIMS they have yet to apologize to??? Fortunately for you, you "don't have a long history with many of these people." I do, and let me assure you, these "incredible men of God" are exactly THAT! INCREDIBLE! They are liars. They have been participants in and guardians of the very behaviors you say they "independently" and concurrently arrived at a biblical consensus about, thus condemning everything they themselves gleefully participated in for 25 years before you ever met them. There can be no genuine forgiveness to elders in the church without their genuine repentance (Matt 18). They never asked me for forgiveness. That's what Jesus taught, but that's only "for your learning, it's not TO you"! LOL! They were not deceived. Not since 1972! And they STILL lie. They're still guilty. And, so are the Forts, and the Horneys. I know plenty of their facts too. They have not apologized to me nor asked for my forgiveness. It's been 31 years since I last confronted them face-to-face. I wrote them a letter and submitted 16 separate questions for their FB dog'n'pony show last May. Never answered any one of them. I did get a response from incredible boob though! I posted it here. It was, "Hi Ralph." Many of us here do have a "plethora" of nasty experiences with your pals at R&R. We ate their rotten "fruit" for 20 years before you got to personally know how incredible they are. They "proved themselves" as pimps and whores for 20 years before they pimped you. They got more "consideration" by far, than they ever even considered having for those they helped destroy through 48 years of faithful TWIt service. There are dead human beings on their "bema list"! I think their bema time will be a helluva lot of "I never knew you(s)" and very few, if any, "rewards". Looking forward to your thoughts Taxidev..............peace.

This always amazes me. They wreck how many lives? They abuse how many people? They refuse to listen to their iniquities for how many years? Then, when it's obvious the ship is sinking, they think all it takes is a an apology and all will be fogiven and it'll all go back to business as usual. Tell me, if somebody robs your house, you may forgive them, but are you gonna let the front door unlocked? If someone stole money from you, you may forgive them, but are you going to let your cash lay around when they come visiting? If they were sincerely sorry, they would resign and put the ministry in the hands of someone who will run it the way the claim they will.