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Chockfull, I'm amused by our brief interaction here, and while I think it opens up a fascinating discussion, it is one that is off-topic here. Agree? Everyone else: If you're wondering where I am in this discussion, there are multiple explanations for my relative lack of participation. First and foremost, I consider Mike's thesis factually debunked. There is nothing to discuss. He has never answered for the plain and obvious factual errors and contradictions in PFAL and the writings of VPW that discredit his thesis conclusively all by themselves. If he ever gets around to it, maybe I'll jump back in. But I see no need to revisit the endless cycle of "dodge, deflect, deny, anything other than admit an error is an error" that is his stated m.o. Honestly, why debate someone who announces upfront that he will not debate with integrity? My apologies if this sounds like a personal attack. I'm struggling to separate criticism of the person from criticism of his stated m.o. I have nothing to say about the person that would not result in a violation of GSC rules. Which brings up another reason for my relative silence: I humbly recognize that a decent portion of the GSC rules appear to have been developed to address the various ways I behaved in dealing with Mike. Lots of things I said and did would be considered blatant rule violations today. While I have not discussed this with anyone recently, and I only discussed it minimally with people years ago, I do not believe this is a coincidence. I also do not believe I am able to disguise my feelings enough to avoid rule violations if I should re-engage in the discussion. Housekeeping: I DO believe I am capable of behaving fairly as a moderator. So for no one has asked for that, and if that should happen, I'll see if any other mods are available to take action before I step in. And I will advise Mike personally if there is something I do that he would like to challenge. Somewhere in this list of why I'm not participating is the fact that my beliefs have changed between the original discussions and today. As such, it would be too easy for people to dismiss my comments because I do not believe ANYTHING can be "God-breathed," so how can I fairly judge whether VPW's writings are? (My answer: By holding VPW's writings to their own definitions of the characteristics of the "God-breathed Word." Surely it cannot be God-breathed and yet be incorrect about what God-breathed means!) All said, in the olden days these discussions were shipped to doctrinal. I am inclined to move it again. The only reason I haven't done it already is that the GSC has changed so much that this conversation may not be the nuisance in About the Way that it once was considered. Nonetheless, the question of whether a written work is "God-breathed" automatically falls into doctrinal, for the record. In any event, happy debating.

Concerning vpw and whether or not he repented, I think it's good to go over what he said and did, and not what we THINK. In his final hours of life, one of our posters actually had interacted with vpw. vpw was dying of cancer. His "Law of Believing" had completely failed him, as he was unable to just believe away the cancer in a manner consistent with decades of his teaching. At moments like that, anyone would be thinking a lot about their mortality, about what they'd done so far, what would happen after they were gone, what they were to do now, in the little time they had left. vpw had plenty of time to think over the rapes, druggings, molestations, plagiarisms, abuses of alcohol and tobacco that led him to that moment. What was his overwhelming thought in what he was sure were the final hours of his life? He was reviewing it in his memory, and reviewing it more. According to him, he was trying to figure out when he'd displeased God Almighty that he was unable to believe himself healthy. He was unable to come up with ANYTHING, which is why he kept searching and searching. For those of you who skipped over that, let's look at it from another angle. Does God Almighty like rapes, ,molestations, druggings, etc? No, he does not. Do they displease Him? Yes, they do. Did vpw know this? vpw supposedly spent his life teaching the Bible and about what God Almighty wants. If vpw, after all that time, still didn't know those were wrong, then he had to have been quite remarkable as a figure of immense ineptitude among Christians. one who could preach that God Almighty was pleased by sinning and displeased by temperance. If vpw really DID know, then he was completely fooling himself as to whether or not his rapes, molestations, etc counted among the rapes and molestations to which God Almighty disapproved. Did vpw repent? vpw didn't even repent ON HIS DEATHBED.

And Raf. I think I'd agree with you to some extent about "God-breathed," though for different reasons. Some of the Bible is (without limitation of categories) record keeping; some is collections of sayings or common sense or wisdom; some is history; and some is visionary. The last category might be "God-breathed" or God-inspired. These threads intertwine throughout all the books of the Bible. I do not believe every word is "God-breathed." I do think that the principal ideas that the words convey are (often) Godly, when they aren't being factual reportage.

Mike: T-Bone, No I don't want to be identified with someone who is like you describe. No one would. I’m not sure at all that your description fits VPW. Along with the Pure Evil model the prevails here goes the relatively uncontested notion that the frequency and intensity of the depravity were of the highest nature. I don’t believe evil is that efficient. It gts sloppy and over plays it’s hand all the time in my experience. T-Bone: Perhaps if you went through the corps program you would have seen a whole other side of wierwille: witnessed the indoctrination process of his twisted-teachings for the corps program....witnessed the “sloppy” nature of his licentious lifestyle…as he let his guard down around “his kids”…drinking and smoking like it was going out of style…witnessed his inappropriate behavior and teaching methods around adults and teens…or worse yet, what if you were one of the women sexually victimized by wierwille...I can't imagine you still having such a high opinion of him. yes, then maybe you’d be satisfied to see that evil is NOT THAT efficient, after all. If wierwille carried on like that to the general public he’d have totally blown his persona of “the man of god”. You’re closer to the truth than you think - hypocrites can only maintain their cloak of respectability for so long – Jesus pointed that out: Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them. 5 “Everything they do is done for people to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6 they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7 they love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and to be called ‘Rabbi’ by others…Matthew 23: 1-7 NIV == == == == Mike: So, I expect a degree of exaggeration in reports of evil. I came from a Catholic where I was steeped in analysis of sin intensity. I don’t want to severely bias my “fruit data” with your “fruit data.” I trust the “fruit data” I see from PFAL I see in my own life much more than I trust the collective sight of those here to look inside someone else’s’ life for “fruit data.” T-Bone: I don’t think you understand Jesus’ criteria for judging fruit; Jesus never instructed us to pick and choose fruit that appeals to us…he never portrayed that a life of discernment was like going to a farmer's market and seeing which fruit is ripe, which fruit we prefer - his instructions regard how to determine if a tree (a person) is good or evil...and he never said anything about trying to look INSIDE someone else’s life for “fruit data”…Jesus said a bad tree is recognized by its fruit…an evil man brings evil things OUT of the evil stored up inside him - in other words, it's something we can SEE - it's not something hidden from view: 33 “Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit. 34 You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of. 35 A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him. 36 But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken. 37 For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”…Matthew 12: 33-37 NIV

Really, Mike? Sure, you'd appreciate it, but should you really expect it? Pinball Wizard, Mike. Until you become like the Pinball Wizard instead of the pinball, it just ain't gonna happen.

According to Mike, vpw should be compared to Balaam. Hey, Mike and I agree on something again!

I suppose one can assume “mastery” of wierwille’s writings can be the same as “mastering” the KJV Bible if one accepts wierwille’s twisted scheme of interpretation…and I suppose if one accepted the meaning of love as defined by a consummate hypocrite, liar, thief, plagiarist, and sexual predator like wierwille – then one could assume they are applying their mastery of his writings in love. To answer this question of Mike’s “Do you know anyone else who heard an audible promise from God to get taught directly by God?” I will need some time to compile a list of the many charlatans who have misled followers by pretending to have a hotline to God.

Change VPW to Paul and you all will be where I am today. Just saying.

I think we should give Mike a bit of a break so that he can put his "manifesto" together. In one coherent place. (Then we can really challenge him.) Yeah. That's really going to happen.

‘65 Ford Mustang 2+2. My 1st new car at 19 years old.