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I drove a '58 Ford... best friend had a '63 buick convertable.

I think we can shorten the discussion by just getting right to the heart of the matter; two notable scholars F.F. Bruce and Sir Frederic Kenyon – both with expertise in the historical reliability of the New Testament have stated that very little has been lost as to what was originally written in the New Testament docs, in The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable? by FF Bruce... it says on pages 14 and 15: “The study of the kind of attestation found in MSS and quotations in later writers is connected with the approach known as Textual Criticism. This is a most important and fascinating branch of study, its object being to determine as exactly as possible from the available evidence the original words of the documents in question. It is easily proved by experiment that it is difficult to copy out a passage of any considerable length without making one or two slips at least. When we have documents like our New Testament writings copied and recopied thousands of times, the scope for copyists’ errors is so enormously increased that it is surprising there are no more than there actually are. Fortunately, if the great number of MSS increases the number of scribal errors, it increases proportionately the means of correcting such errors, so that the margin of doubt left in the process of recovering the exact original wording is not so large as might be feared; it is in truth remarkably small. The variant readings about which any doubt remains among textual critics of the New Testament affect no material question of historic fact or of Christian faith and practice. To sum up, we may quote the verdict of the late Sir Frederic Kenyon, a scholar whose authority to make pronouncements on ancient MSS was second to none: ‘The Interval then between the dates of original composition and the earliest extant evidence becomes so small as to be in fact negligible, and the last foundation for any doubt that the Scriptures have come down to us substantially as they were written has now been removed. Both the authenticity and the general integrity of the books of the New Testament may be regarded as finally established.’ “ == == == == == Bruce’s point is simple – with the increase of hand-copies comes the possibility of scribal errors – but that also means you have that many more “witnesses” as to what was originally said. And another thing to consider is what type of scribal errors occurred. Was a word misspelled, or repeated or transposed, etc. - - these would be easy to spot and corrected by comparing other copies... It appears wierwille is somewhat removed from analyzing the actual texts that are still in existence; in the PFAL book, page 128 in chapter 11, “The Translations of the Word of God”, wierwille states: “Since we have no originals and the oldest manuscripts that we have date back to the fifth century A.D., how can we get back to the authentic prophecy which was given when holy men of God spoke? To get the Word of God out of any translation or out of any version, we have to compare one word with another and one verse with another verse. We have to study the context of all verses.” == == == == == I see two issues with wierwille’s approach: First: He’s off by about a century and a half on the oldest manuscripts in existence – Bruce notes on page 10 of his book that there are in existence over 5,000 Greek manuscripts of the New Testament in whole or in part and that the best and most important of these go back to somewhere about AD 350. Second: wierwille is not comparing Greek manuscripts – instead he is comparing translations or versions of the Bible! That’s like playing the telephone game - the first person states a message and by the time it goes through a whole line of people the message might sound somewhat different from the original. wierwille is at the end of the line - comparing how one translator interprets a phrase in the Greek to how another translator handles the same phrase. Frankly I don’t have much faith in wierwille’s ability to see beyond his own doctrinal preferences to note differences or similarities in translations since he would come up with goofy phrases that blurred variations like “all without exception” and “all without distinction” – which is the same thing. == == == == == Here are multiple challenges: First challenge: how can wierwille claim he can get back to the authentic prophecy when it was first given if he is only looking at translations and versions instead of the manuscripts written in the original biblical languages? In my humble opinion, it is doubtful wierwille was even competent to read and understand any of the biblical languages anyway. Second challenge: what standard or criteria are you using to declare that the KJV or other translations lack validity and authority in matters of the Christian faith? Third challenge: specifically what errors are there in the KJV - or in other translations, for that matter - that need to be addressed because it is mission critical to the church and/or one’s Christian faith? Or to put it another way - what errors does your manifesto confront and resolve to make your unique creed a better version of Christianity? Fourth challenge: How is PFAL God-breathed if all wierwille did to put it together was just supposedly compare translations /versions …oh and plagiarize the work of others too? Fifth challenge: If God’s breath gave life to scripture (II Timothy 3:16) and in a way that represents an extension of God himself then doesn’t that make God a liar and thief if you believe that a bundle of plagiarized material (aka PFAL) is God-breathed?

No, the social cohesion was working fine. You were looking at the wrong target. The people at the location the wows went to were expendable and faceless. The wows who went there on their own dime and ran classes that raised a tidy profit for twi counted-especially once some of them started tithing. (Their money is welcome at twi.) The cohesion was between the wow vets, corps grads, etc, not with the peons on the field. They only count for the income they bring in.

When a thread like The Wierwille Legacy comes along and sucks up all the oxygen in the room, I believe that it is an extreme example of how followers viewed wierwille, his writings and/or twi. Not trying to be disrespectful to Mike in any way......I simply stated that "he was a cult of one." In fact, I have many times stated that social cohesion, or group cohesiveness, was the underlying foundation that kept "followers" in this group for years and decades. The primary motive for staying, for most (not all), was social cohesion......i.e. access to others, activity, self-worth, a-cause-bigger-than-self, part of a movement, etc. While on staff 1981-1983 (at the height of wierwille's "glory years" of Ambassador One flights, Living Victoriously, High Country Caravan Filming, and Sound Out '84..........corps and staff were buzzing around with plenty of activity. Yet, on corps nights in the OSC lunchroom........dozens of corps who sat at the back of the room hardly took any notes. And, forgive my skepticism when I say........."who ever took the time to go back and study ANY of their corps notes?" So......while its eye-opening to see someone come along and have this hyper-fixation to the "writings of wierwille"........it's beyond the pail of most everyone I ever was around in twi, except Chris Geer. And even then, I believe that Geer was a surgical-opportunist wanting to get into wierwille's inner-circle, and more. To me........the pfal class was the nectar and social cohesion (activity) kept the bees a-buzzing. The more "involved"......the more one was "in the know." Climbing the pyramid......getting to the next level increased "perceived" spiritual stature. Headquarters was inundated with social activity.......not staffers who sat around with lexicons and concordances. One of the posters here, years ago, said that Rosalie told her that she didn't need to read the Bible, because she was constantly editing publications for the way magazine......i.e. reading "the word" every day at work. Although cohesion is a multi-faceted process, it can be broken down into four main components: 1) social relations, 2) task relations, 3) perceived unity, and 4) emotions. No matter the task, staffers were led to believe that they were "helping to move the word over the world." If you were a carpenter, your work helped in that perceived goal. If you worked kitchen staff, then your preparation of the food that day helped nourish leaders and staffers to do their work.......every person interconnected and adding to the cohesion of the group. Of course, here at GSC we know that the cult took this cohesion and seduced it.........with buzzwords, incremental indoctrination, isolationism, unbridled adulation, etc. People stay/stayed in twi........because of social relations.......the longer you stay, the more "interconnected" you become task relations..........the longer you stay, the more "valuable" you become perceived unity.......the longer you stay, the more "invested" you become emotions.................the longer you stay, the more "committed" you become The intricacies of social cohesion are vast and wide........and, so often, are overlooked as a main component of the cult's infrastructure. I'm sure that there are others here at GSC that can convey this topic much better than I have. In summary.........from all my years in twi, I believe that social cohesion was and is the underlying foundation of why people stay. There is NO laser-eyed focus on the Scriptures and following its precepts. While twi touts itself as a "Biblical Research, Teaching and Fellowship" ministry......there's no research department, only readings on sunday sermons, and very few even like hanging out with others in their branch (except at meetings). Oh Lordy, Lordy........what a tangled web they weave when first they practice to deceive..........

I had a career. Which wonderfully took me to another country. Which, since this thread appears to have become about cars, enabled me to buy my first car, a Ford Laser Sport. Bright red, it was (especially once I'd cut'n'polished it, brought the colour up beautifully). I liked it a lot. Like this but below the rubber door trim it was red, not grey as in the image.

You stated he was "born with an overabundance of brains and brawn." You stated that he was "OVERgifted." The man's brains and brawn were strictly average- as has been shown beyond any REASONABLE doubt. You don't have "a healthy distance" from him.

Yes you are Mike. You’re putting lipstick on a pig by legitimizing his writings with the caveat “He had a competent team of Way grads who assisted him”. They did exactly what he wanted them to do, or they got bounced. Nobody dared to cross him. I’m sincerely sorry that you’ve spent decades believing that VeePee was a legitimate scholar and teacher. He was an unrepentant, unconvicted felon. That’s YOUR HERO. I’m thankful he wasn’t mine.

Hey guys, some beautiful machines! So distinctive! Nowadays a lot of vehicles look alike to me. Soul Makossa, I’ve found you !!!!!! 1967 Chevy Malibu

1967 Ford Galaxie 500................. my first car

Very good post, T-Bone. Very good.

If we don't change direction soon, we'll end up where we're going. When your IQ rises to 28, sell. Professor Irwin Cory. The "World's Foremost Authority". I'm waiting patiently for Mike to make a point. Any point. Besides the obvious that he's a devoted worshiper of all things VeePee.

Oh, what rubbish. Either it fits all or it fits none. If your whatever-it-is is really the revealed word of God, then it should be good for "OLGs," "refugees from Craig," grads, and people who have never heard of TWI. Do you know, Mike, if people do a PhD (as in "Dr W"), they have a very searching oral examination on the minutiae of the subject of their thesis? " Once you have submitted your thesis you will be invited to defend your doctorate at a ‘viva voce' (Latin for ‘by live voice') or oral examination. The thesis defence can be a daunting prospect, but many people really enjoy this experience of discussing their PhD research with genuinely interested experts. It can also be a useful networking opportunity. " https://www.vitae.ac.uk/doing-research/doing-a-doctorate/completing-your-doctorate/your-viva Your Dr W would (if he'd really done a doctorate) have had to defend his thesis (premises) before real experts. He would have to show he really knew his stuff. It's a bit more than delivering a token sermon. Now then, Mike. You will see if you care to read the link above that to some extent you are being subject to some searching and challenging questions. (I know you aren't defending a PhD but you are presenting some very controversial material.) You have to answer these challenges if you want to be taken seriously. If (as appears) you want people to throw away their Bibles, their compilations of sacred literature going back for millennia, in favour of PFAL material, you have to deal with the challenges as to why that might not be an appropriate course of action. I daren't even think about you presenting PFAL to a Jewish person, telling them that Moses is a liar or deluded or hadn't got it right, and that some cornfield preacher in Ohio is the only one who really understands God. Never mind "OLGs," "refugees from Craig," and grads.

T-Bone............LOL Several of us young bucks would pile into someone's car and cruise the country roads (drinking a beer or two)...... ........singing to the tunes of the radio.

I can see where I made the error, WW. I was thinking of cohesion as being like a close knit family (family of God, how much closer knit should that be) And members of a close knit family would never dream of losing contact with one another. In reality, The Way was more like a poker tournament, where a core group was making the rules, but the players were interchangable and come and go.

"By emphasizing shared symbolism, religious teachings and practices help promote social cohesion. An example is the Christian ritual of communion, which not only commemorates a historical event but also allows followers to participate in the unity ('continuum") of themselves with other believers (McGuire, 2002). All religions have some form of shared experience that rekindles the group's consciousness of its own unity. Religion has played an important part in helping members of subordinate groups develop a sense of social cohesion and belonging even when they are the objects of prejudice and discrimination by dominant group members..." From sociologyassignments.com It's pretty basic.

...and so, as the sun sets slowly in the west

(runs off screaming)

Oh yeah.......many WOWs after rock of ages were never heard from again. Same with some corps after graduation................gone. I left 20 years ago......and STILL can't hardly believe that I stayed that long. It wasn't because of wierwille-mystique nor wierwille's writings, that's for sure. The social contract of helping others is noble......IF the organization has noble motives.