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Let's see... "lacking depth as do all intellectual inbreedings." We still represent more points of view than just the "praise vpw" "discussions" you prefer. "One is the supremacy of BG Leonard’s class. I heard that on production/market side it sucked, and that BG was an even bigger jerk than VPW. " You heard incorrectly. We heard from people who actually attended it. It was live so it was better "in production" than audio or video of vpw with errors left in. It was meant specifically for ministers and pastors, not the general public. It was meant so ministers and pastors could go bless their congregations. It was not meant as a source of revenue. BGL was a genuinely nice guy, and even vpw said so. He could have thrown vpw out when vpw was told the class was closed, then showed up to insist on being included in a class already in progress. He chose not to. He could have sued vpw when he found out about the plagiarism. but was so serious about Christian not suing Christian (based on the Bible) that he refused to, instead adding notices to his books on how plagiarism was wrong. And all the people who actually worked with him or took his classes said he was nice. "BG could have never marketed his product to the hippies and the baby boomers…. Just never!" It was never about marketing. He aimed his classes at pastors and ministers, to equip them to be better pastors and ministers. He succeeded there. "BG was in great error in that he taught SIT was a gift." He was not in GREAT error because his vocabulary referred to SIT as a gift, but his explanations and instructions all reflected a position that it was not a separate gift (all Christians were automatically entitled to it, etc.) Now, if twi and BGL are correct, this is actually a minor point because the practice taught doesn't reflect the poor vocabulary choice. If twi and BGL are both incorrect because the modern thing is not the SIT used at Pentecost, then he's less bad off than vpw, since BGL spent more time on healing, word of knowledge, etc, and vpw built up 2 whole classes on TIP. "And did you already forget about Oldiesman’s post on VPW admitting in writing that he was not into originality? I see zero references to it, even though I reposted it a few months ago here." Buried about 100 pages into one single book advertising twi which was never a collateral reading (The Way-Living in Love) was vpw's off-hand comment that "Nothing I do is original" and claimed his originality was in putting the class together. Anyone except someone desperate to exonerate vpw of rampant plagiarism would say that was nothing like an admission. He certainly never said that Leonard's class was the exact same class vpw taught, in every particular, a few months after taking BGL's class. THAT would have been an admission of something. It's a non-issue, because it wasn't an admission of anything, and WAS an evasion about the class already having been put together-which it had been. We've mentioned this lots of times, but someone around here forgets lots of stuff and doesn't admit it. ========================================== For those who arrived late to the party, this was Mike. Some of Mike's posts have contained the following: that vpw had an "OVERABUNDANCE of brains and brawn" and was "OVERgifted." When Jesus returns, he will have a copy of the Orange Book in his hands and be teaching you from it. He wasn't joking either. "Quite serious. I've seen him this way several times." He thinks the Bible is inaccurate, but has called the written pfal materials and twi materials "GOD-BREATHED." I swear, I'm neither making this up, nor exaggerating, nor changing his meaning by removing relevant context.

That seems a rather vacuous statement to make about the Bible. The above statement makes it sound like God is ok with a sinful lifestyle as long as you believe God for great things to come to pass and are doing "great exploits" for him. Please provide scriptural references for that assertion. There are many passages that indicate God puts a high priority on a contrite heart - - I think there's enough evidence in the Bible to indicate that God might be more concerned about a change of heart in the sinner rather than the status of one's belief system, what one believes, how big is their believing, all the things they believed God for.etc. - for example: My sacrifice, O God, is a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart you, God, will not despise. Psalm 51:17 NIV Who may ascend the mountain of the Lord? Who may stand in his holy place? The one who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not trust in an idol or swear by a false god. Psalm 24:3,4 NIV If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us. I John 1:8-10 NIV

Indeed. I wonder if any wayfers, happily plodding along with their lives, have ever left "the household" based solely on logic... What keeps people in a social organization (of any size)? Logic or the subjective sense of belonging? Would it be a significant event if such person or persons no longer felt a sense of belonging? You know, kinda like being marked and avoided...

The Way is a cult. Expect it to behave like anything else and you'll be disappointed.

Rosalie Fox Rivenbark snaked her way to the top of wierwille's cult........as health issues (don wierwille/cancer) and legal counsel (craig martindale/sexual predation) ousted these men from wierwille appointments. In August 2000, Rosalie had the reins of this cult in her hands. As president, what did Rosalie do for those 16 years of her reign 2000-2016? Damage Control Measures........yeah, she had to tread lightly and secretly as martindale was ousted. Slowly and methodically....rebuild and reshape the BOD to give her strategic advantage and cover her weaknesses. Keep the railroads running.......the WAP class was now anathema, so corps were mandated to "teach those wap classes." Micromanage Sunday Services.....the reading of sunday sermons became the norm and a yawn-fest was the result. Three Puppets teach new class.......Rosalie can't teach or inspire anyone. She rules by fear and intimidation. Strategically build twi's financial assets to $64 Million.........in case people and abs-contributions dissipate. Run off staffers that have health issues.......silence anyone in twi that is asking too many questions. Keep debt policies in place........no matter how many times it was researched and debunked. People keep exiting the twit-cult.......but people are replaceable. Always have been. The Resistance was growing: Resistance to the same old, same old micromanagement. Boring teachings, pathetic classes, sanitized explanations........the outreach was dead. More corps were exiting that those being "trained" each year. The programs were a joke.......and no one was laughing. FINALLY.........enough corpse leaders rallied to challenge Rosalie. She had her shot.....and failed. She was too legalistic. And, now......too old. FINALLY.........by August 2016, a seven-page letter was sent to address their concerns and dissent. Rosalie refused to give audience to such claims, but would be willing to meet with corps couples. She refused to give them advantage in numbers......trying to suppress these claims and then, target those who speak out. FINALLY.........a new president is "installed" in January 2017. LOL. And, Rosalie is slotted as vice-president !! Months later,...........the moynihans, horneys, forts, fredericks, sheldons, etc. are labeled with the pozzezzed label, m&a. What a kick in the head !?!? Same damn thing that wierwille did over and over again...only different terminology. Rosalie and Donna even bring in Marcia Faulk Greene to add to the girls' club.......as Chandler, Bill & Marcia's son, is the (cough, cough) corps coordinator. Circle the wagons and buy another keg of beer. Woohoo. The Cult will continue to find a way to survive......and scheme......and deceive. Rosalie's Cult Tactics 2.0 Re-teach old classes with new faces to reach a new generation..... The wagon train moves forward......it may be grueling, but it's moving.... It doesn't matter how many remain.......whatever it is, it's a "remnant of the faithful" Delusional and deceived, the cult is not going to change........EVER. And, Rosalie is going to wield power as long as possible. When she can't..........Donna and Marcia will. .

Twi has been sending out ornaments to their fellowship coordinators with the following comment attached: "The Remnant: Those that stay behind after all others have left. The remnant in the biblical sense, was actually the best part of a piece of clothing, or material due to its quality or durability. So it is spiritually. Throughout the old testament, within every generation, it always came down to a small remnant of believers who stood and believed when all others had left. We can see it in every generation. Still see it today. Stay strong oh ye remnant of the Lord!" Now, all i can say is this appears to be a pretty cheesy effort at damage control since so many folks split with revival and restoration. Im gonna do a tshirt that says "i stood as the faithful remnant in the way international and all i got was this crappy ornament."

Over the years I have noticed more and more that any conversation with the Way is a one way conversation. The Way presents material to the follower. The follower does not present material to the Way. As I have reflected on this, it is such an extreme cognitive distortion. In a normal human exchange there is give and take. This is in a personal sense, in a community sense, in an educational sense, and in a professional sense. What happens in a personal relationship where communication is only one way? Divorce. What happens in a community relationship where communication is one way? People don't feel understood and leave What happens in a professional business setting where communication is one way? People lose customers. In just about every setting you can imagine, one way communication is a poor choice for running anything or interacting with anyone. Yet the Way simply cannot modify its culture to listen. They don't have the ability. All the policy of the Way is set by a very old Common Core trained schoolteacher who didn't actually do the teaching job for that many years before starting to climb ranks at the Way for a job. Yet she sticks doggedly to that approach that has even in the educational system proven to be ineffective. http://edpsycinteractive.org/topics/instruct/instruct.html In this article on psychology in education they compare instructional methods. Basically direct instruction is geared towards standardized tests. And it is far less effective at students retaining information than other interactive methods such as cooperative learning. http://edpsycinteractive.org/topics/instruct/cooplrn.html Cooperative learning is where teaching is going now, not 50 years ago. It shows higher retention of material and greater satisfaction in learning. Could the Way ever make this shift? Sure, all you would have to do is remove all the hierarchy. And the cotton out of their ears.

Soc, great question! I learned Christian behavior, once I left TWI. A lot of non-Christians, I think are more Godly, than Christians. I learned Christian behavior by reading about Jesus Christ. I personally try to live the Golden Rule, everyday. I treat people the way, I would like to be treated.

It goes fairly well. I'm married, raising a kid, and feeling optimistic about the future- certainly more than a decade or so ago.

Hi Mike, The focus of where you want your attention on the vicster's life seems to be the teenage years. For some reason. What is that reason? You yourself are not a teenager. Have you emotionally progressed beyond that stage? Or have you regressed to that stage through a mid-life crisis? Your logic seems to follow teen-age type reasoning. BG was as big a jerk therefore plagiarizing his class was OK. BG made errors in his class thus plagiarizing his class was OK. VP admitted he wasn't into originality thus his actions are OK. No Mike. VP's actions were not OK. He sexually took advantage of underage girls who were not his wife. As a 60 plus year old man. He was a creeper. These are not the actions of an individual whose Bible classes are worth listening to. It is not OK. It is not OK to canonize this individual as a saint because you have an attachment to a class he taught.

Chock, once I left TWI, I was pleasantly surprised at how much better, many non-Christans treated me, than people in TWI. I dealt with much less Hog Wash with non-Christians, than with Christians. To this day, I have far more problems interacting with "Christians", than non-Christians.

Maybe. However, here's another way of looking at it.

Nice bit of "PFAL research", WordWolf – and I’d like to offer an alternate interpretation as well – The remnant left over after the job is done – which could also refer to the those who stick around TWI oblivious to the royal screwjob that’s still being done (note: "still being done" is in the present continuous tense - which agrees with the context of the situation - being present during a royal screwjob would make anyone tense)

We were predisposed to doing stupid things because some leader had brain flatulance. "Obey the MOG, even if he's wrong, then God will bless you," remember? Like any authoritarian culture, they make promises for the future. Then when those promises don't come to pass, they make excuses. I always loved the believing equals recieving con. After falling on your tail end a dozen times, you go to leadership to find out what's up. Then you have to present everything you did for the last dozen times so they could find that one millisecond where they could claim you weren't believing.

What was the use of going to fellowships at all? TO YOU, not much. It was meant to be a revenue and advertising source that benefited twi. Since it was in homes, there was zero costs. It brought in donations, taught tithing, and advertised twi's books, tapes, and classes, all of which were organized to turn a profit. So, they wanted you to show up. advertise for twi stuff, pay money, and go home. Actually helping you wasn't good for twi's bottom line. twi was never an actual ministry, it's always been a business designed to turn a profit. Other Christians might be concerned with a prophet, but to twi, there's only profit.

As much as any human can be said to base decisions on logic, I left twi based on logic and personal observation. (I went to ROA 89 to see things personally before making any decision, so I had both sides represented.) I hardly think I was the ONLY person who did, although I imagine many did not. Social organizations work for several reasons, depending on the organization. If they don't serve social needs, they collapse or wither away, So, yes, making people feel unwelcome will drive off newcomers and chase off old-timers. And yes, like twi's been doing for decades.

Tigers can't change their stripes (and leopards can't change their spots) because it's in their DNA. Chockful, your OP reminded me of the Socratic method. From the Foundation for Critical Thinking: "The oldest, and still the most powerful, teaching tactic for fostering critical thinking is Socratic teaching. In Socratic teaching we focus on giving students questions, not answers. We model an inquiring, probing mind by continually probing into the subject with questions. Fortunately, the abilities we gain by focusing on the elements of reasoning in a disciplined and self-assessing way, and the logical relationships that result from such disciplined thought, prepare us for Socratic questioning." TWIt wouldn't know critical thinking if it bit the organization on the a$$. Dictor eschewed critical thinking in "his corps."

Mike.....as you noted, "unorganized responses"......it looks like you're all over the map on this reply. So, to even respond to you......I'll have to address its components. "One is the supremacy of BG Leonard’s class. I heard that on production/market side it sucked, and that BG was an even bigger jerk than VPW." Not sure I've heard anyone here state it that way......."the supremacy of BG Leonard's class"........but most assuredly was the origins of wierwille's October 1953 class and subsequent classes where he patched in some of Stiles and Bullinger, also. And, what's with your comment on "BG was an even bigger jerk than VPW".............Mike, I don't know if you meant that the way it came out, but are you referring to victor paul wierwille as a jerk? "BG could have never marketed his product to the hippies and the baby boomers…. Just never!" And your point is?........I'm not sure that this statement will have much weight around here, because many (most) of us are in the camp that it was a detour regarding life AND Christianity. Wierwille was into building a cult, not preaching and practicing true Christian doctrine and the One Body of Christ. "BG was in great error in that he taught SIT was a gift. How many other errors and wrong slants did his class have?" And, wierwille was in great error when he went off on tangents of the absent Christ and skewing dispensationalism. In fact, Mike........I've stated this many times on this site, so please bear with me.......I was on staff, corps and in wierwille's presence dozens of times in unique situations and NOT ONCE did I ever see the man operate any of the "big six manifestations" even when he claimed a guy was possessed in the BRC. All wierwille did was get angry, stammer meaningless wordspeak and tried to intimidate him with confrontation. "Has anyone EVER entertained the thought (and collected data) that most of what we mean by “originality” is actually multiple-hidden sources? Well.....if you want to explain your hypothesis on it, you might want to rename it. According to Wikipedia.....originality is the aspect of created or invented works as being new or novel, and thus distinguishable from reproductions, clones, forgeries,or derivative works. An original work is one not received from others nor one copied from or based upon the work of others. "As for Mrs Wierwille, who ever said her words were canonical? And who ever said VPW’s words were canonical? Not me. I say he was often wrong. It’s only what he put in book and magazine form that I see as special. I never held that all his memories would be accurate." So, on point 5............is that how you think God via holy spirit operated in wierwille? Just so I got this straight.........you believe that wierwille was often wrong when he spoke or taught, but when he put things in writing that was special?

T-Bone I wanted to say thank you for expanding upon this post. Your quote from that book has really set very deeply with me and helped to clarify things in my life currently. That book is now on my Kindle too! I think maybe the reason why many people stay in a cult is the lies they tell themselves. And how they take others on intent value rather than actual treatment. This allows for abusive relationships and for so-called ministers to use God's name to further their own various lusts.

Yes we definitely became brainwashed to accept the one-way communication as the norm. That is a collective consciousness. Frame every conversation with where it sits with respect to the "higher powers". Which that section in scripture is the one teaching leaders to be less Machiavellian a-holes, not for them to use to mandate flock behavior. From my perspective the only way TWI hierarchy ever has an ear to the ground is because it is attached to their head which they have buried in the sand of their own egos.

Jeff, I am surprised they didn't tell your wife that she should "believe God" instead of having surgery. That is the sort of abuse a friend of mine in Columbia. Although surgery was not an option for him to fix his problem, he got shunned because "after all these years" he had not gotten delivered from his degenerative eye disease. What an effed up bunch of leadershit that place had.

not sure if The Way International could make the shift, Chockfull, from what I remember when I was in TWI I Think many folks accepted that limited form of communication in most situations – whether it was a class format, fellowship teaching, one-on-one counseling…whatever. It was often a one way street - - with the flow of traffic being subliminally directed to give deference to the TWI-mindset……it wasn’t just some jargon folks used as if there was an official way-speak lexicon - - actually, I think it was more along the lines of a cunningly mandated collective consciousness…whether we realized it or not we were led to think, speak and act a certain way as TWI hierarchy set the example. As the dynamics of group-think tends to go – we follow the flow - - an artificial collective consciousness, if you will. Two-way communication was often stymied by the simple things: - Listening to a teaching tape does not allow students to ask the teacher questions. Also having students hold their questions until the end of the class is a good way to have students forget about the importance or context of their question. - Answering a question with a question avoids an exchange of information. - Pat answers are a quick, evasive, and oversimplified attempt to resolve problems...such as: just renew your mind…why don’t you do a word study of “forgiveness”…you really should take the blah blah class – it would really help you in your walk. - People were never encouraged to speak freely - i.e. say how you really feel or think about something - rather always frame your ideas and even personal issues in a positive TWI-centric format. == == == == I tend to think that the only reason TWI hierarchy has ever had an ear to the ground was so that they could have a heads-up on talk and trends that would threaten their reins of control...It was never about catering to the needs of the "customers" but about securing the needs of the hierarchy.

WordWolf stop it. You're going to show the Way how to do Biblical Research.

Technically, there's more details, but most people need to know the Titanic sank after hitting an iceberg, not the name of the helmsman when it struck, or who was in charge of the lifeboats, and so on. There's a lot of little things that happened (not so little if they happened to you), and you might want to read around about some of them. Or you may not because it's not worth it to you. Either way, feel free to stick around!

The first usage of the word "remnant" in the KJV is Exodus 26:12. There it actually speaks of cloth. "12 And the remnant that remaineth of the curtains of the tent, the half curtain that remaineth, shall hang over the backside of the tabernacle." Strong's specifies that the word translated "and the remnant" here means, literally, "a redundancy." In other words, it's the extra cloth that isn't needed. According to the pfal system of things, the first usage of a word has special significance to its usage all through Scripture. "the best part of a piece of clothing" is FAR from what the usage is "in the Biblical sense." In fact, Biblically, it's almost the opposite from the beginning, it's left over after the job is done. twi's job has been done. It's "faithful remnant" are the people left over after it's been made redundant by hundreds of Christian groups who get the job done better.

I have seen so many people do so many stupid things because some leader thought they had a great idea for someone.

That’s pitiful and funny at the same time, OldSkool …so I’m thinking “a piece of clothing”…like…patches! Then I thought of the tune “Patches” by Clarence Carter…so I listened to the tune and thought – yeah good way to offset the loss to their pockets and roster – check out the key part of the song Patches: “…For, life had kick him down to the ground When he tried to get up Life would kick him back down One day Papa called me to his dyin' bed Put his hands on my shoulders And in his tears he said He said, Patches I'm dependin' on you, son To pull the family through My son, it's all left up to you…” == == == == == == == == hark - the voice of one such remnant: “It’s all up to me now…Oh the scriptural drama and urgency of it all is almost overwhelming…I will carry on with the four fifteens....say, is there a chance I can get ordained anytime soon?...Reverend Patches! Has a nice ring to it, doesn’t it?" here's the actual tune Patches

Another thing a cult does is convince you the cult knows what's better for you than you do. I heard one ministry leader try and explain this by claiming: "I know what you want better than you do, I know the Christ in you."

Holy Schmoly.........that ornament sounds like it comes with devil spirits attached. /sarc Remember when we used to take items to throw in the fire at Burn the Chaff day? Things like.........record albums, crosses, jewelry, idols, ornaments, pictures, etc. anything where devil spirits hitched a ride into a person's life? OMG.........could this cult thing get any more whacked?

These posts got me thinking about how when one joins TWI and sticks around for a while – they adopt a unique filter for how to look at things – whether the past, present or future. Something I remember from Everything You’ve Been Taught Is Wrong: Fact, Fiction and Lies in American History by James Loewen on CD – it goes along the lines of history being a fabrication – something that is man-made. My 2-bit opinion agrees with Loewen…besides knowing that history is a study of the past by folks who may not always get all the facts straight, who may have a bias or two, who may filter out things they deem unimportant, I figure it never hurts to check out history from several different sources – from folks who may have a different take on things. That’s the beauty of Grease Spot Café. Sometimes new folks come here and paint Grease Spotters with broad strokes. But even a cursory reading of About the Way and Doctrinal forums reveal there’s quite a difference of opinion in what’s wrong with TWI – told from the unique perspective of each person’s experiences The “official” history of The Way International – is a fabrication alright! A great tactic to hide all the deceptive, manipulative, exploitive, abusive, destructive things that they have done and will continue to do. The Way International - always the consummate chameleon with a carefully planned strategy that adapts to every situation. It may change its color…its outward appearance…but remember it is still a chameleon.

I think if someone demanded I show them my checkbook and paycheck stub to prove I was properly ABSing, I'd tell them,"Good idea, you want to show me you checkbook and paystub to prove to me YOUR properly ABSing?"

Yes, definitely the modus operandi of the Board of Dolts is to package up some new and improved different class series based on the original series but different enough to try and distance from the bad press of the teachers who came up with the series. Maybe as enough time goes by they hope that people will forget. Then they won't have to whitewash, they hope to present a fresh and clean image to a younger generation that doesn't know anything about the real history of the Way ministry. Then they can just direct the slavelings to "run the class" and everything in life will solve itself. Meanwhile, the dolts can collect statistics on the classes run, and "manage" from above. All while surviving off the $65M from when the Jesus movement brought in income. Nefarious plan. Sounds like a movie that could be entitled "The Long Con".