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What were the "advantages" for slick-vic to LIE about his organization's beginnings? First and foremost, it put DISTANCE between him and B.G. Leonard's foundational class and class-based ministry....... clearly, from the timeline and content it is easy to see that vic plagiarized the class wholesale and ran with it in October 1953. So, why wasn't the starting date in October 1953? LOL.........Now, that would have been too obvious tying it to Leonard. That's why wierwille had to reach back to the ridiculous "vesper chimes" youth broadcast to make his claim. Young vic had a narcissistic personality disorder that needed fed with admiration and adulation. It wasn't enough just to start something new.......it had to be proclaimed best in every way. Even though it swayed many youth, most of the adult crowd shrugged and left after taking this class. Contrived and manufactured accounting to *build his reputation*............snow on gas pumps, audible voice, black heart/white heart revelation, and the vesper chimes broadcast as anniversary date. Fabrications that fed the narcissist and his pathologies. And, mrs. wierwille the dutiful wife stayed silent and played along with this charade.......until after he was dead. Then, she set the record straight on the anniversary date .................at least. .

There's your............ ALL NINE ALL THE TIME

Is one exclusive of the other? I mean, since wierwille was affected with a narcissistic personality disorder THAT was the conduit for his actions. Whether one labels it as he "convinced himself" or "believed to be some great one".........that is not exclusionary or an aside. NPR is the core element.................... Narcissistic Personality Disorder.........[according to Wikipedia] Grandiosity with expectations of superior treatment from others Fixated on fantasies of power, success, intelligence, attractiveness, etc. Self-perception of being unique, superior and associated with high-status people and institutions Needing constant admiration from others Sense of entitlement to special treatment and to obedience from others Exploitative of others to achieve personal gain Unwilling to empathize with others' feelings, wishes, or needs Intensely envious of others and the belief that others are equally envious of them Pompous and arrogant demeanor

Ya know if I ever run an advanced class I am going to relegate all that to the junk table

Yup...that’s the “magic of believing”....holy cow - he did practice what he preached ! remember class, believing equals perceiving

Do you think it was all about covering his tracks? I think it totally was about covering his tracks, but I also think, having seen his comments when he was alone- that vpw even convinced HIMSELF that all of that was connected- that he really convinced himself of his hearing voices and seeing imaginary snowstorms- and didn't really remember that without Leonard, there would have been no class at all. I think he overwrote his own memory, making it easier to lie to others because that's how he actually remembered it. This also benefited the narcissist because he was able to convince HIMSELF he was some great one, which is one thing he wanted all along!

T-Bone: What honesty! I think you're quite safe "in the middle", as it were. As one who carefully weighs things on BOTH sides of the scale before rendering a verdict, you're quite the "juror of gold", which is quite admirable in God's sight. And yes...balance is a great key. Scripturally, this equates to the "Jews and Gentiles", of which "the church" is comprised. (Basically, the Jews are too strict and the Gentiles are too lenient.) Those who are wise are careful not to go too far "to the left hand" (law, or cursing) or "to the right" (grace, or blessing). Just be content in "your own middle"! Since leaving "them" (as with you) I haven't studied as much as I used to --- because I'm more concerned these days about DOING a little of what I know. Instead (as you) I take more time to take care of my wife and things of concern to make sure my promise of "giving her a great life" is secure. I look well into our finances. Our house is paid for. BTW, "you know who" wasn't glad when we took out a mortgage for it --- screw them and their "borrower is servant to the lender" perversion of the Scriptures! Not to brag, but we paid off a 30-year mortgage in 5 years and 2 months. (Needless to say, we would NEVER have saved enough CASH to buy this wonderful home with if we did it "their way"...OK...enough!) Therefore, our "autumn years" look quite bright ahead. If I can say one thing to you it would be this: Ro 14:22 "Hast thou faith? Have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth." So if you allow a bit of LIVING at times (instead of constantly studying the Bible) so what? God knows your heart. And isn't that the point --- to live happily and in peace? And while you're doing "those other things" you spoke of, just keep it in balance and try not to judge yourself too harshly, friend. Yes though, keep searching where your heart takes you. For all you know, what "you decide" to look into just might be God himself allowing you to suppose those are "your great ideas" --- when in all reality, it just may be that HE (just as written) "is working in you to do of his good pleasure"! If you can "read between the lines", consider the possibility of 1Co 12:11 meaning that (as you're already willing, by your own choices and personality) God is behind that already --- according to his plan for you personally...leading you RIGHT WHERE YOU WANT TO GO ANYWAY! Just remember to give him the credit for "those good ideas of yours", because they're probably his to begin with anyway! Peace, brother...

Hi Spectrum49 I understand what you’re saying and I usually appreciate a commentary on what’s happened thus far ; I think some other posters besides me have noticed there have actually been at least three vibrant themes coursing through this thread: a discussion on how to stop mass shootings, the practicality of a wierwillian frame of thought, and the legitimacy of wierwille’s theology. Perhaps the reason the discussion has gone toward the latter two themes is because the person who had started the thread assumed they had a ready-made preaching platform and was not prepared to have an intelligent discussion with other folks – not sure on any of this…but stay tuned . . .the thread ain’t over yet ! Too bad it wasn’t just a discussion on how to stop the shootings – but it seems to me that the person who had started this thread may have had a hidden agenda – as evidenced by their lack of documentation, misinformation, and their inept references to things that wierwille taught… how many times have folks tried to coax a straight answer out of the poster? Frankly, it’s always frustrating and disappointing when folks try to have an intelligent discussion but intermittently there’s someone randomly punching buttons on a jukebox that only plays wierwille-lite. But enough…I’m not the one that should be explaining why this discussion has occasionally turned toward what’s wrong with the Way…I’m not the one who has been using TWI-ish ideas to try and support a point. I’m not the one to use a source established by Scientology to disparage medical professionals. I’m not the one who posted some of the copyrighted material of The Way International on their own website - the glorious Orange book...PFAL but - - watch out for those TWI lawyers ! You can believe what you want...I believe in calling a spade a spade.