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He tells them to be joyful. Doesn't explain how. The Word says be joyful *POOF* you are now joyful. Like when claiming verses. Craftily disconnects the motive from the action. . . . Be joyful because I said The Word says so, mention "love" cause that'll sound good to your mind, now go sell PFAL.

Yes. BTW, anyone who wants a quick summary of the main points of that entire transcript, it's simple. I said it before: "Serving people is important for Christians. Therefore, master all three levels of PFAL and serve them that. There are no answers outside the Way Ministry." (The end,) My initial response to it was that this was the closing remarks of a man with an overinflated sense of his organization, and an underinflated sense of all Christians outside that organization.

Since it was hard to find, I thought I'd repost it. Mike insists this was vpw's last public teaching (there's reason to dispute that), and that it's important (and most of us don't take that seriously at all.) It was called "The Joy of Serving." Here's the transcript of "The Joy of Serving", aka "The Joy of Serving Transcript." (Yes, it took me a while to find it, so I'm reposting it off of "OK, Once and For All", page 7, from dmiller.) ====================================================================== The Joy of Serving Transcript ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "The Joy of Serving" Dr. V.P. Wierwille May 12, 1985 [song ends "I Am Resolved"]". . . will come to thee." Thank-ya very much. Please be seated. Well it's wonderful seeing you all again on a Sunday night. Really I appreciate your coming in from all over the area -- and I'm sure that Reverend Chris Geer and everybody else does. Most of you know, at least the Corps knows, that Chris and Barbara were my aids for about five years. So, through the years we have been very closely knit together. And, real thankful for their ministry and their dedication. Phil it's [Phylis?] good to see you. (laughter) You got married on me. 's nice. (laughter) Got anything to show for it? (heavy laughter) [pause] Mrs. Wierwille and I will be returning to the s-- United States tomorrow. And so I just wanna, again, thank Chris and Barbara and all the -- st- Corps here and staff and everybody, for -- the exquisite way they took care of us. And how blessed I been just ta be in their presence. [Article from The Way Magazine begins near here.] Since this is the meeting here at this time of country coordinators -- and of course, what I'm going to say should be applicable to every born again believer, but especially to -- our coordinators. I wanted to just share a little bit tonight on the joy of serving. The joy of serving. Number one, you can't serve unless you've got something to serve. So if you are going to serve a dinner, you have to have a dinner to serve, right? Good. If you master the foundational class on Power for Abundant Living, and the intermediate class plus the collateral readings that accompany them, you have really something wonderful to serve people -- with. That twig and twig area leader, and the country coordinators, leadership of the Corps, of the WOWs, have to all have this joy of serving. If you haven't got the joy of serving you missed something in the Word of God you oughta ah-put on. Heh, heh. So, number one, you gotta have something to serve. Number two is love. In Ephesians, chapter five -- verse one: Be ye therefore followers [imitators] of God, as [beloved, or] dear children; Number two: And walk in love, as Christ also [loved you, is the text], and [gave up] himself for [you] an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet smelling savour. I'll bet most of ya thought I was going ta read ya first Corinthians thirteen. (laughter) Wouldn't hurt ya to read it sometime again -- and believe what it says. Ha-ha-ha. Then I want you to look at first John, the epistle of first John. Chapter three -- verse sixteen: Hereby perceive we the love of God [and this word "love" is always agapao, or agape], because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. Verse seventeen: But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him? Go back to Peter. Flip back a book, first Peter. Chapter two - no, chapter one. Verse twenty two. Seeing ye have purified your souls . . . That's renewed mind, 'cause your soul is not purified when you're born again. It becomes purified as you renew your mind -- according to the Word. purified your souls in obeying the truth [there it is,] through the Spirit unto unfeigned ["unfeigned" is genuine] love of the brethren, see that you love one another with a pure heart fervently: So first, in the joy of serving, you've gotta have something that's joyfully to be served, heh heh, secondly love, and then thirdly service. That's the joy and the order of it. I'll give you the four basic scriptural things relative to service as I know it from the greatness of the Word. Not gonna read these, just going give 'em to ya. I'm gonna read one of 'em with ya. Luke twenty, twenty-two and following; Luke twenty-three, sixteen and following; John thirteen, one and following. [ Luke 20:22ff, Luke 23:16ff, John 13:1ff ] But the one I want to read with you is from the Gospel of Mark. Mark, chapter ten. Verse thirty-five: And James and John [two of the apostles], Sons of Zebedee, [came] unto him [unto Jesus], saying, Master, we would that thou shouldest do for us whatsoever we shall desire. (heh, heh, heh) Sounds sort of selfish, doesn't it? (heh, heh) And [Jesus] said unto them, What would ye that I should do for you? They said unto him, Grant us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory. [And] Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can you drink of the cup that I drink of ? baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? It's referring to his death. Thirty-nine: And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized with shall ye be baptized: But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared. Verse forty-one: And when the ten heard it, they began to be much displeased with James and John. [And] Jesus called them to him [all twelve], and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them. See the world is just opposite of the teaching of the Scriptures. They exercise lordship over them; and then the great -eh - when he gets higher up on the ladder, then he exercises authority over the top of them too. That's why, so many times, we have heard that money is power. Because money buys people, and then people become the slaves of those who have the money. That's the world. Verse forty-three: But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, [shall be minister -- be your minister -- means minister to you]. See, every twig coordinator ought to know what's happening in his twig, among his people. He ought to know his people very well so he can minister to them. You can't help somebody if you don't know there's a need there. So a twig coordinator really has to get close to his people -- to know. And people are usually hesitant to really tell ya what they need until -- you have earned their respect. And you earn people's respect by serving them the Word of God and loving them -- and then learning to keep your mouth shut. You just -- you just never tell anything; you just help people. Forgot which verse I was -- forty-three: But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister: Verse forty-four: And whosoever of you will be the chiefest [the greatest, the toppest], shall be [doulos of all] servant of all. Not just minister but a servant of all, a doulos, -- marked out for just serving people. For even [verse forty-five] the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many And after all of my years, and our years of working with people, I think the joy of service is exactly, in a synopsis form, what I've given you tonight. Number one, you have to take PFAL and master it -- Intermediate, you gotta master it; the collateral's that go with it, you gotta master. Then you've got something to serve people. And then you have to do it with the love of God in the renewed mind, -- agapao. Then your service is just not a ministering service, it is a doulos service, where you are a marked-out slave for serving. And I think this is what has made The Way Ministry so wonderful all over the world, generally speaking, is that we have a lot of the love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation among our people and that we are serving our people. So every Twig coordinator, Twig Area, Country, anybody that blesses people, like anybody, even if you are not a Twig coordinator, you ought to master this so you can help somebody in the shop or factory; or wherever you are, so that you got answers for them. Outside of this ministry, people, I've seen very few answers. If we knew where there were more, we'd go get 'em! (laughter) That's right. Heh, heh. I think later on tonight you're gonna hear this old church hymn: O Master, let me walk with Thee In lowly paths of service free; Teach me the wayward feet to stay, And guide them in the homeward way. Teach me Thy patience! still with Thee In closer, dearer company, In work that keeps faith sweet and strong, In trust that triumphs over wrong; In hope that sends a shining ray, Far down the future's broad'ning way, In peace that only Thou canst give, With Thee, O Master, let me live. [The Way Magazine Article ends here.] That was my confirmation verse. Heh, heh -- hymn rather, not verse, hymn. Revelation three-twenty was the verse. Well, way back in March 17th this year we officially opened and dedicated the Word Over The World Auditorium at International Headquarters, that I'm sure a lot of your love and blessing's involved in. And since the opening, we have been making available the Sunday Night teaching fellowships -- Teaching Service, on video tape, as well as audio. But because of the differences in formats used in the United States and used here, most of you have not yet had the opportunity to see a video version of the Sunday Night Services. So Reverend Geer and I discussed this yesterday and felt that you'd be blessed tonight to see the Word Over The World Auditorium and a Sunday Night Service. So, Reverend Geer, you do what you have to do. [Tape ends here]

Excuse me?? David, I don't have an ax to grind; F-off!

Great posts Rocky & Waysider ! Sometimes wierwille apologetics make me think of an Old Testament passage: 20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter! 21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes, and shrewd in their own sight! Isaiah 5: 20, 21 ESV What an insult - to fault the students for the “teacher’s” ineptness (not even considering his gross moral depravity here) . How ridiculous is that?! wierwille was supposedly a "gifted teacher" – president and founder of a biblical research and teaching ministry – but one of the few things he was really adept at was crippling the intellect of devoted followers.

I would agree that Sean Penn's (like him or not) film work stands up. If a list were made today of hollywood's best, for me, I think it would be a very short list. I would also agree with you George, that a good actor should be versatile in both comedies as well as dramas. . Robert DeNiro comes to mind. So versatile. Take your Ryan Reynolds, or Brad Cooper's, or Chris Pine's. They are all good looking hunks who play heartthrobs for the ladies but they fall short imo when it comes to giving a truly worthwhile performance. They are mostly known for choosing comedies. I don't know if that's because that is all they are offered or not, and I find that hard to believe, but I think it suggests A: that hollywood has dried up and no longer cares about really good roles or B: that those actors aren't as versatile and haven't developed that kind of range to play really good roles. I never would have thought 15 or 20 years ago that George Clooney would come up in the conversation as a really good actor. But imo that's what he has done. He has developed that range in his acting and has become versatile at playing both arenas.

Moving target indeed... People went in to become "the best" for God and found out that the "lifetime commitment" wasn't to God but servitude to an organization People went in to develop "gift ministries" and found out that they were being trained to be twig leaders People went in to learn how to be twig leaders and found out that they were supposed to quit their jobs and abandon their careers and work full time as "ministers"

You had to LEARN to hate eggplant, chard, and mustard greens??? George

Do the letters "ss" mean anything to you. That was what the corps was be groomed to be. I refused to go along with the plan.

I was once told that the WC was getting too big to handle at one locale and so they were having FL programs to see if they could do in-state WC type programs to supplement the WC. I was there 1976-77 and during that time they acquired I think Emporia and I know Rome City in 1977, so I am pretty sure Broken Arrow is right. And for me personally the FLO program was not a complete loss; I met my wonderful Mr. Garden there! WG

I didn't know that different states had different programs. OTHO, I got the impression that the local limb leader had a lot of power to define the program. I could be wrong. In California the Fellow Laborers seemed to be a Corps for the people who wanted and were otherwise qualified to enter the Corps but couldn't get their sponsorship together. The bottom line was more slaves to run the limb.

I think all his programs were designed to provide a free sales force. ...the purpose of taking the class was so that you would "spiritually mature" and get other people to take the class...everything Wierwille did was calculated to eventually make money for himself.

Amen to that..and that includes my "sphere of influence"...As a manager of a retail store, I take a personal interest in all my employees...I do my best to treat each one with respect and concern for thir personal situations...I set the example of how I want them to work and then I treat them as friends...the resonse is great! The work place is a test of our faith and how we conduct ourslves....

I think the Trinity and other Biblical related beliefs may actually be the red herring in this discourse. A group does not necessarily have to have a religious bent to fit the criteria of a cult Is the group leader self appointed, charismatic and domineering? It may be a cult. Does the group have special, privileged knowledge that drives it to fulfill a special mission? It may be a cult. Does the group dictate intricate details of how the members must speak, dress, think, and behave? It may be a cult. Is the group inordinately focused on recruiting new members for the purpose of generating revenue? It may be a cult. Does the group limit and/or discourage interaction outside the group unless said action benefits the group? It may be a cult. Does the group have its own language, encourage members to think within a narrow set of parameters and reinforce a black/white, either/or mentality? It may be a cult. http://www.caic.org.au/general/cultcrit.htm

Maybe a bit off topic. When I stumbled in here, looking for a copy of PFAL, in 2006, there were people here who had already been kicking this stuff around for more than six years.-----But, to me, it was all brand new. I'm really glad they didn't just say "Well, we've been kicking it around for six years. That's long enough." I needed to hear what they had to say even if they had said it a hundred times before -----because I was hearing it for the first time. In my opinion, if you really want to compare ANY two religious groups, you need to place less emphasis on their stated religious tenets and more focus on the day-to-day lifestyles they promote.

Yeah....saw this stuff in 1981. At hq, another corps guy and I had several discussions on this very thing. He transferred from another department where an abusive leader had gained strength and authoritarian rule with docvic's nod of approval. I know corps get a bad rap.........but I joined forces with MANY corps thru the years to "relieve the heavy burdens" from oppressors. So often, compassion towards others is simply looking at a situation from their point of view and adjusting accordingly.

I wonder how many times old VP showed up late to various functions and meetings. Better yet, there is one account here on GSC about how he and Howard Alien completely blew off a big public meeting and used the lame, old "snowed in" excuse when there wasn't even any snow. Who chastised THEM?

Thanks for the info. Waysider. How sickening. I would say that having sex with underrage girls qualifies as pedophilia, but I'm no legal expert. I guess definitions are secondary anyway. His actions are sick. And to think we referred to him as our "Father in the Word", or, "the Man of God for our day and time". How sick.

After listening to an offshoot class discuss SIT, and after giving it a good-faith effort after which I reported moderate success, my EWF was very excited and declared me "born again". To her, SIT was the main criteria, the critical indicator of the new birth. P.S. CES/STF had a phone number you could call if you needed "technical support" (my characterization) on SIT. I thought that was kinda weird. ("Having trouble with your SIT? Give us a call!")

And then there's the mashed potato analogy. "Gotta feed the Christ in you with spiritual mashed potatoes to make him big and strong." Gee, I thought Christ in you was supposed to represent the limitless power of God. How's come you need to do something (or anything) to make him big and strong?

LOL My friend, told me of fellowships she attended where a roomful of people would all be speaking in tongues at once. The thought of that really creeped me out.

I visited the site. "Father" this and "Dad" that. Creepy Are these people simply unaware that Wierwille was a serial rapist? Or do they know and not care? Do they know he openly claimed to have fondled his own teen-aged daughter? Are they aware of his cause of death and the terrible credibility dilemma it invokes? I don't think I'll be joining any time soon.

Yeah... I skimmed those who have joined that group... didn't know most of them but one face in particular jumped out at me from my past... not a pleasant experience! Kinda sad to think that folks who no longer attach themselves to twi still spout its doctrine and catch-phrases and blather on about the abundant life and our father in the word... wow. Makes me so glad I have moved on from that mind-space.

Well, I went and looked at all the members. That little stroll down memory lane has given me a bowel complaint. :( Saw one girl who attends the high school my son graduated from (don't know her, he graduated in 2001), a couple of fellow fellowlaborers, couple of former limb leaders and whoopy-do important people, etc. Saw a boatload of folks stuck on stupid. I will never again get myself into a situation where a human being is placed above Christ in veneration and attention. THANK YOU GOD for getting me out of that freakin' mess!