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Did the ring leaders M&A them back? Cause, that would show them.

Glen Campbell .............. RIP

TWI knew about as much about counseling as I know about nuclear physics. You say you have a troubled, rebellious, disobedient child who's been diagnosed with ADHD? There is no such thing as ADHD. BEAT THE HELL OUT OF YOUR DEVIL SPIRIT POSSESSED CHILD AND HE WILL LISTEN-REMEMBER-OBEY! You've been diagnosed with a serious disorder and you're scared? Well, where's your believing? It was either your lack of believing or devil spirit influence/possession that screwed you up. I watched someone who I considered to be the most exceedingly great and mighty woman of God who had ever lived beat the crap out of her little daughter, aged about 3, because she spit out the steamed spinach this woman was feeding her. Then she beat her some more to get her to say "Thank you, Mommy, for providing me this healthful and nutritious meal." That was when I realized this cruel, sadistic, legalistic zeeatch knew nothing about raising children. I wish I'd taken that damned spoon away from her and shoved it down her throat.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/most-people-consider-themselves-to-be-morally-superior/

"And my comment at the end of the post was more of a general observation than it was personal... but perhaps the closer to the truth something is the more it tends to sting." Except, of course, it did not sting. The only thing it did was Reveal Your desperation, which made me pity you a little.

You excused temporal atrocity over and over and over again and then chastise me for pointing it out. Please.

The omission of links was intentional because you don't have any. You know the claims you do have won't stand up to scrutiny. So you hide them and pretend that I'm not willing to look for them. Nice try. Dishonest. Sad.

Positive outcomes of realizing you're more moral than Yahweh: recognizing that "it is written" doesn't justify cruelty, sexism, racism or slavery. Other than that I can't think of anything.Seriously, how is it that some of you think I'm the arrogant one in this conversation when others just literally make s--- up as a pronouncement without the slightest bit of critical thought to challenge or support it. No positive outcomes? I could list 30 while snoring.

YO! HAM!! Where the hell are ya squirrel?? We're missing you!!

Oh my gosh - the first squirrel to be knighted ! Sir Nutzalot

It is an interesting time. I won't say who, but one person on that list of "signers" recently contacted me to say she just finished reading my book, Undertow and appreciated it (not her exact words). Mmm...

TLC, if you're going to cite evidence (I didn't call it proof) then cite it. Don't claim it exists and leave others to find it. The ad hominem at the end of your post reveals your desperation. But for the record, I don't need no stinking badges. The pericope of Jesus and the woman taken in adultery only reveals that even Jesus knew the Old Testament law was immoral. Stoning people for adultery. I mean really. No one ever said mercy was a sin. What you're ignoring is that Jesus could have cast the first stone and still not sinned. And you would have to call that moral, even though you know full well it is barbaric. I'm sure when ISIS tosses gay people of rooftops, they justify it with the eternal perspective. Here's the deal: you have repeatedly cited the "end game," big picture, eternal perspective to excuse temporal atrocity, making my point over and over again in the process. That doesn't make me smarter than you. It just means that you've surrendered your capacity to make a moral judgment. You know full well there's something inhumane and immoral about the actions and laws I've cited. But you've convinced yourself that Yahweh is more moral, wise, etc than you. He must be right. I must be wrong. Evidence be damned. Now, temporal or eternal: there is no moral basis for forcing a rape victim to marry her rapist as HIS punishment. There is no moral basis for pelting a man with giant rocks until his skull cracks and he literally can't take it anymore as punishment for picking up sticks on the wrong day of the week. That you would excuse such atrocities on the grounds of some eternal perspective (NEITHER of those victims is promised eternal life for enduring such abuses, by the way) speaks to an abdication of your moral responsibility.

Rofl!!

I promise, I will not knowingly get you started...

Who is Yahweh? Raf: I define Yahweh according to the Bible. Waysider: I define Yahweh according to the Bible. Longhunter: I define Yahweh according to the Bible. TLC: I define Yahweh according to the Bible. Mark: I define Yahweh according to the Bible. BSvic: Yahweh is one of the god concepts that helps determine sexual evolution. This is the root of our inability to make progress on this thread. TLC, I apologize for lumping your posts in with his earlier. You're making coherent arguments. I don't agree with them, and I've explained why, but they're not incoherent.

IMHO, religion may be the worse " drug" in History.

Good Lord! That's one I forgot all about. Put wheat germ on anything that isn't moving. And then all 50 of us would meet every morning at 5:30 in one of the basements. One spark, at the wrong moment, could have blown us all clear into next Thursday.

Remember liquid lecithin? You were supposed to consume a couple tablespoons a day to increase your state of alertness. Maybe if we had gotten more than 5 hours sleep a night we wouldn't have been so concerned with alertness. I think I would rather duct tape my eyelids open than drink that swill.

"Reduce vandalism"...two thoughts: if TWI didn't make itself so obnixious locally, perhaps it wouldn't have suffered vandalism. It would be interesting to know how much "vandalism" other farms and properties in the same neighborhood suffered Formation of a private police force is hardly "bless those that persecute you" or turning the other cheek. (Maybe property protection was "justified" by protecting the ABS the believers had contributed) "Grant them access to nationwide police records"...Would this be used against alleged vandals? Probably all of whom were known locally. Or would it have been used against the believers? Knowing the abuse that took place with known information (like "letters of apology" and "Birth to Corps papers", how much worse and controlling would the organization be, if they had access to such sensitive Police information? Nationally? Knowledge of one's own and one's family's past criminal history would be passed off as "revelation" and would be used for fuelling all sorts of "possession" allegations. What a scary thought.

waysider.....yeah, I see your point. Thanks. In looking at this "top ten list of doctrinal errors"......one is left with the impression that martindale totally screwed up twi. Yet, twi was unraveling under wierwille's watch! And, many would contend that wierwille's credentials and life disqualified him from any and all spiritual oversight. How many of those corps/clergy types who left twi....AND WENT TO OFFSHOOTS.....still feed and seed the wierwille fallacy? Hundreds of these corps and clergy are still out there living off the legacy of wierwille. Classes with 12 sessions. Programs like SOWERS. The youth are sacrificed at the altar of wierwille's legacy once again. If I were to put forth a "top 10 list"......the countdown would look something like the following. And, "the law of believing" as purported in twi would be #1...the scriptures never state it as a law. Yes, God honors believing to those promises in the scriptures, but it isn't a wish list for self-advancement or gratification. Skyrider's Top Ten List of Doctrinal Errors 10) The Black Snowstorm was a Lie 9) Plagairism is Stealing 8) Take this class and shove it 7) The Way Tree has root fungus 6) Corps Program was Indoctrination 5) Members in Particular: Not collectivism 4) Twi was No Zion 3) MOG Doctrine is anti-Christ 2) Search the Scriptures: Not PFAL 1) The Law of Believing is a Hoax .

SoCrates

Don't want people to realize the research ministry really didn't do any research. Most of the so-called research was either others work or something pulled out of Saint Vic's tail. SoCrates

I cast my vote for lower than a pregnant whales stomach on the ocean floor. SoCrates

When one strips away all the adulation and twi-idolatry of wierwille......imo, he was a false teacher who succombed to the lusts of the flesh. With tongue in cheek......wierwille was "not anywhere near the top of the food chain." To add description to this analogy, let me say it like this.... Was he a killer whale?........no Was he a white shark?.........no Was he a marlin?..............no Was he a mackerel?............no He was a catfish, a bottom-feeder........yeah, he may have grown quite big in the back rivers of crawdads, minnows, and such, but a bottom-feeder nontheless. :)

Was it a movement? Not in the normal sense – unless you want to count a bowel movement by someone who was so full of $ hi+… …..filled to capacity? Nay, brethren he was filled to overflowing! Of a truth, yeah verily, amen and a men's room. ~~ Maybe I'm wrong - but I thought a movement is when folks with a common ideology work together for the same goal or goals. In that regard the "PFAL Revolution" or anything generated by TWI for that matter is the exact opposite. So rather than PFAL/TWI starting from a grass roots level [a movement arising from a certain group of people], it was a subversive plot to overthrow the lives of unsuspecting souls on life's journey. Not sure if that's the best choice of words – since "subversive plot" implies that there is deliberate and malicious planning involved to transform an established order. I just won't attribute to vp and the other bozos that much intelligence nor demonize them by painting them up as evil incarnate [although that is tempting at times]. This has been discussed on other threads – such as vp hijacking the Jesus movement. Imho, the PFAL/TWI "revolution" – or "subversive plot" was really a mutating virus – an ever-changing pathogen that causes a variety of diseases in each host…..a pathogen that arose from the heart of a certain ego-centric, sociopath, parasite-like predator with delusions of grandeur – vp. Did it change the world? Doubt it. Did it change me? Yup – several times over, as a matter of fact. Change #1: Initial change was the gradual absorption of the TWI mindset after taking PFAL. ~~ Change #2: Then the metamorphosis was ramped up at an alarming rate when I went into the corps – which was a methodical procedure for suppressing my individuality [the corps program…the environment…uhm…the whole sub-culture is really an ongoing homogenizing process that ensures the continual maintenance of your personality makeover…er…uhm making sure it sticks]. I can still see the poster hanging on a hallway wall during my first semester: the world out the Word in ~~ Change #3: The turmoil surrounding the reading of Passing of the Patriarch threw a wrench in a dusty little used contraption – aka my brain. So many questions bubbling up….doubts….observations….feelings….frustrations….fears….worries…concerns…Am I entertaining devil spirits for thinking these things? Am I tripping out? This was an unwanted change at first. Because it was…..scary. I mean certain thoughts and questions were coming on so strong and so fast and they'd lead to other ideas – like I said…scary. Feeling a little like Bruce Banner when he got upset [ok, cue the visual aid - ] and turned into the Hulk. Not saying I became a super intellectual – just trying to describe the, at first, fleeting moments of clarity and awareness - going from a brain-dead corps guy to a person with a somewhat normal functioning mind. Maybe it's something about the indomitable spirit of man – when given half a chance will always strive for freedom. ~~ Change #4: I'm happy to say this continues to be an ongoing process. It's been said whatever doesn't kill you will only make you stronger. Maybe there's something to that. I broke my left hand in a truck rollover. I am right handed. A curious thing – after therapy and time my left hand is now stronger than my right. Hopefully, I am a wiser, more discerning, compassionate person after surviving my stint in TWI. ~~ Something else I think of about this topic. What IF – and that's a big IF - maybe I better underscore it …..what IF TWI wasn't a totalitarian form of government. What if there had been a give and take at all levels – maybe more of a democratic approach. Maybe some things would have turned out different. Sounds far-fetched? Yes I know – BUT – I mentioned this on another thread - consider an incident from I Corinthians 5, where Paul called on the local church to levy a very harsh judgment against an immoral person. It was over a sexual scandal so vile that even their pagan neighbors were kinda freaked out about it. The local church had done nothing about it – maybe even prided themselves over how loving and forgiving they were as to minimize this awful sin. The Corinthian church followed Paul's instructions to excommunicate the offending party as a disciplinary action which not only protects the church but as a means to bring about a heartfelt change in the sinner. There have been brave souls who have had the nerve to confront vp, lcm, and others over the years on various issues – I mean serious issues – like adultery. This is not common knowledge to the general TWI populace – not even to most corps. It is common knowledge at Grease Spot….well, the bozos stayed in power and you don't ever hear about those who had any kind of face-to-face with the aforementioned bozos… How does this relate to the I Corinthians 5 passage? Well, vp et al remaining in power, TWI becoming a life-entangling nightmare for followers is what happens when sick deranged lying thieving weaselly leaders go unchecked. To put it in secular terms – that's the reason we have laws, a judicial system, support groups like Alcoholics Anonymous, and mental health professionals in this country. Too bad TWI is a world unto themselves.

Broken Arrow......thanks for your posts. Oh, how different everything was back in the late 60s and early 70s......the Jesus movement, the music, woodstock, the counter-revolution, the day the music died. The clashing of a cultural change was in the making. Then, while in college....I was invited to a "twig" off-campus. At that time, twigs were simple, short, spontaneously different, no corps or stuffy leaders......hahahaha. For two years, I hardly knew what a corps person did or looked like. Yet, with incremental steps.......the legalism put a stranglehold on twi. When all was said and done....it was FAR WORSE than church. And, crazy indoctrination......I stayed into the 90s.