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For the sake of this discussion, it might serve our purpose best to limit the definition of God to that which is present in the sections of scripture being examined.

WG, why wasn't your son allowed to take Ritalin?? Isn't that a Prescription Drug?? I take Prescription Drugs; they are closely monitored by the VA. Most of the adults I know take at least one Prescription Drug a day; some more than one. Who gave TWI the right, to determine what Prescription Drugs were given to kids?? They weren't doctors; my doctor tells me what drugs, I should, and should not take. Trust me WG, I would prefer not to take any meds; but there are some I have to have. I think TWI was full of S--t, when it came to Medical Matters.

Longhunter, The word you changed from "oral" to "immoral" SHOULD have been changed from "oral" to "MORAL." You're welcome.

I do get to see quoted material, and I think it would be nice if certain people didn't presume to characterize my position when they've repeatedly shown such a failure at basic reading comprehension skills that it's healthier to ignore them than swim through their sewage for a salient point. "The character of God in the Bible" is my definition for Yahweh, as I've said repeatedly. Dismiss that as "the fundy viewpoint" if you wish, but it's Yahweh as opposed to the conveniently shifting, goalpost-moving evolving God that some people keep trying to make this thread about.

Responsibility. I wanna learn to be responsible. I wanna look like I work hard and take the bull by the horns. That might come with risk and decisions and disappointment. That sounds uncomfortable. What to do???? Got it! I'll join a cult!!

Religion is the opiate of the masses. It screws up EVERYBODY'S "wiring".

What if wierwille cast out the spirit of the hook shot… and with it seven other spirits more inept than that… let’s see…there was… the spirit of plagiarism the spirit of Drambuie the spirit of roofie the spirit of Elmer Gantry (usually pairs up with spirit of roofie) the spirit of hissy fit the spirit of The Third Reich the spirit of Kool Menthol Cigarettes hmmmm…I was at Advanced Class ’79 – and if those spirits were cast out – I don’t think “the teacher” would have showed up.

...Good questions Jim. I don't suppose that our young Sowers poster has those answers...and if he did, they would probably be the same crapola that was spoon fed to us those many years ago... The bottom line is that these creeps are just another example of how the scam that Wierwille pulled on everyone is still alive and well...God sells...collect the money and convince yourselves that you are the "ones". Yeah right, been there, done that...and I'm the fifth Beatle too. Vic jr...get a real job before you end up in a rubber room.

The thing I don't understand is the dodging and secrecy.. I mean, isn't it just a tad bit EARLY in the life cycle of an organization for that? I thought that came after they had more than just a few volunteers, and lotsa money flowing in the coffers.. they"ve skipped all the preliminary steps (along with the loot) and gone directly to da way as it is today.. gone from zero to abundantly over-arrogant in less than a year.. maybe it was just founded in bitterness and arrogance.. to begin with.

Well you have to admit. . . all this lovely history brought to light. . . . concerning the Wierwille's from Ohio and now Mud Hole Mississippi . . . . cannot be good for business. Curious. . . . most groups like TWI are built around one central charismatic figure. . . cult 101. . . the big guy dies. . . the thing falls apart . . . . unless there is someone equally charismatic to step in. . . . rally the troops. . . and hold it together. Pretty common way for a cult to go away. . . the big dog dies. Armstrong and the COG are a good example. . . it splintered. I think his son leads an offshoot as he could not hold the empire together. Now that the Wierwille's splinter have a new charismatic figure. . . they are ramping it up and at it again. I just find that diabolical. I really do.

Well now I am really confused. . . someone comes here and has an over the top initial post. . . is called on it and what?? We say it is okay because he is young? People called him on it. . . . and all "kidding" aside. . . that seems the proper response. This is a discussion forum. . . no? Things are discussed? Differing opinions and viewpoints? What is it exactly we discuss? A cult that has hurt many people. . . whose cult? VP's cult and now his family seems intent on carrying on the legacy. Offshoot is a really nice word, but an offshoot of what. . . a nice little bible study? Not in my world. That family is poison. I am sorry they had VP for a dad and grandfather, but they can walk away from this garbage just like the rest of us. No one is forcing them to try and bring back the glory days. Do you know what finally penetrated my pea size brain? The truth of what it was really all about. The other side of the story. If he doesn't know like we didn't at that age. . . be a stand up person and tell him. Or we can tell him it is great he is on this path with this group and more power to him. Yeah. . . hang with the Wierwilles. . . where else can you get the "word".

You know... when I was 22 I was enthusiastic. I went in the worst parts of town and witnessed. BUT I never threatened anyone. I never defended vp as if he were some diamond-studded-gawd-on-a-stick. It never even crossed my mind to consider insults about twi, der victoid, gawd, geezus, or pfal as FIGHTING WORDS. And if I recall correctly, we were taught to behave ourselves with dignity 'so the ministry be not blamed.' We were supposed to have some class. All that is beside the point that I was taught better by my parents. So what does this say about the 'present truth' being sown in Mississippi? Nothing good I'd say.

It makes me sad that other stlll live and raise their kids in the mog worship, arrogant, isolationist beliefs of VPW/TWI, where bully characteristics are mistaken for boldness, and obedience to the mog is mistaken for spiritual depth.

Oh mstar. . . that was good for a real laugh out loud. . . . my thoughts run in the same direction. . . this kid better have the cure for cancer. . . Although, the bar in that family is set fairly low. . . what exactly IS the standard for a great MOG in the good old timey Wierwille family religion? Well, let's see? A guy who left the "confines" of orthodoxy and the church under a dark cloud. . . set out on a grand adventure to hang with the hippies and desired to attend an orgy. . . . Drank like a fish, had the mouth of a sailor, smoked like a chimmney, molested young women while parked in front of the house he shared with his WIFE. . . watched porn and was kind enough to share it. . . beastiality no less. . . admitted to feeling up his own kid. . . taught men that it was cool to commit adultery. . . set himself up as Jesus Christ on a stick. . . and fleeced the flock for millions. . . Hey, the kid doesn't have far to climb. . . . Oh, I forgot. . . this was the guy God Almighty gave the true "word" to. . . like it hasn't been known since the first century. . . he taught great truths on salvation . . . or was it sin? I still get those two confused. Oh well. . . . I SIT once. . . I am golden!

Dooj How can anyone hear the *responsible adults* if what one sees lines up with the worst that he has been told about the copped out possibly devil possessed disgruntled former followers of twi? Shoot, I had responsible adults trying to help me 30 years ago...I couldn`t hear what they had to say because when they said it, though time later proved them to be right, they were attacking a group and people that I loved. It was the people who were able to share things with me in a non confrontational way that planted seeds that later germinated into the niggling doubts that eventually opened the doors to my departure. I also think that as responsible adults, it is possible to have the capacity for kindness, the maturity to see past the controversy and the capability to present our points in a manner that someone can receive, rather than just getting upset and lambasting someone for their choices.

Caleb, Let me say I am really glad that you are here. It is obvious you have strong feelings for your group and your beliefs and there is nothing wrong with that. But frankly, if you are one of the students in the SOWERS group I am guessing you are pretty young and your life's experience is pretty limited. You know only what you have been exposed to by your parents and those they allowed around you. I can only hope that when you are older, you do not look back on your experiences and realize that you wasted prime years of your life giving your focus, energy, love, and best efforts to a man or a group that was as self-serving and down-right evil as they come, which is what happened to most of us on this forum. Now, to address some specifics: Not favorable toward TWI and DocVic, agreed (for the most part) Not favorable toward the Word in general, mmmm... really? I think you will find a great many practicing Christians here. The only "word" they are unfavorable towards is the bolloxed-up mess that was taught as "the word" in twi. Yeah... that's polite and respectful. You come to an OPEN forum and demand WE play nice, then YOU make threats. Is this the example set by your leadership? Or is this just the heavy-handed tactic you think will work best with a bunch of cop-outs? Perhaps the acorn really doesn't fall very far from the tree. First, I am not aware of anyone on this forum "accusing" V2P2 of anything, except of following a format of teaching and doctrine that is eerily close to his grandad's. And that's not an accusation, that's a fact. The rest of the comments are simply speculation; rude and rough at times, I'll grant you, but nothing like an actual accusation. No, we don't know the up-close-and-personal content of what is being taught at SOWERS, that is true. But after spending years of our lives being told "black is white" and "white is black" most of us now think "if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck it sure as heck isn't an elephant"! So, understand, while you say your humble leader is loving and gentle and kind and "knows his stuff" well, we know where a lot of his "stuff" came from so we have a really hard time believing you. --- Let me clarify: we believe you THINK these things and are genuine in your own personal assessment, we just think we have more long-term experience and understanding of the whole picture than you do, so it's hard to put much faith in what you are saying. Well, this may indeed be the whole measure of the man. But many of us could have said (and DID say) the same of DocVic only to later discover how misled we were and how two-faced he was and how much damage he was doing to our brothers and sisters in Christ behind the scenes. I can only hope you are correct in your assessment of Vic the grandson. But many of us here have to ask: if he is such a Godly man, why the heck is he imitating methods and programs set up by his very unGodly grandfather?

Hey Caleb, As far as your first post and my former response I want you to realize that I meant every freakin word of it! I also want you to know that I do not hold anything personally against you and my response was not an attack at you. It is just that most all of us at the greasespot has seen that "passive aggressive crapola" that spewed out of your computer in the very first post in your thread. And I guess we all have different ways of dealing with it. Here you are looking at a possible career in law enforcement and one of the first things out of you mouth (so-to-speak) is a direct threat from you that any of us may have a p!ssed of redneck knocking at our door. Well that prospect really does not frighten me. I have kept my head in more bad situations than you are years old I'm fairly certain. And I know how to deal with that "fight or flight" adrenalin rush that goes with those situations and can still manage to hold onto my poker face through it all. Let me tell you something boy, IF YOU EVER THREATEN ANYONE HEAR AT THE GREASESPOT AGAIN I WILL BE MORE OR LESS PERMANENTLY PO'D AT YOU UNTIL YOU SEE HOW VILE THAT BEHAVIOR REALLY IS. I mean what is it, do you like the idea of threatening women, kids, and people who are still recovering from the very ministry brutallity that you have already abundantly proved yourself capable of? And then even while threatening to be pounding at some kids door as an angry redneck you have the unmitigated gall to say that you want to keep things respectful? I suggest you take a real hard look at how you and your "Great man of God" use anger and threats. And if you can honestly say that threatening people who have been so badly beat up by their TWI experiences that some of us still need to find a reason every day to keep going sounds anything like JESUS CHRIST, then fine, but I know that you will not be able to justify your brutal behavior unless you have already became settled in TWI style delusion when it comes to determining who needs tenderness vs. who needs a slap in the face. I'll tell you what, go ahead and ask your best law enforcement teacher what he/she thinks of your first post. I'm betting that if you don't actually have a change of heart that they would consider it a black mark on you for the rest of your law enforcement career. You dumbazz kid! You are not practicing a biblical faith here so far. Who taught you this crapola?

The unofficial 4th Aid policy 1st aid pray 2nd have someone pray for you 3rd seek help from TWI's nurses 4th, your believeing sucks so you have to go to a real doctor. Anytime I had to go to the hospital, I was made to feel like crap about it. It was my own fault. Accidents don't happen, you should have known there was going to be a hole for you to step in that was going to break your ankle, you weren't "walking"