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(nods) And Saint Vic had a lot of sociopathic traits: lack of empathy for his victims being a big one. See if this sounds at all like Saint Vic: Profile of the Sociopath This website summarizes some of the common features of descriptions of the behavior of sociopaths. Glibness and Superficial Charm Manipulative and Conning They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims. Grandiose Sense of Self Feels entitled to certain things as "their right." Pathological Lying Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests. Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way. Shallow Emotions When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises. Incapacity for Love Need for Stimulation Living on the edge. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal. Promiscuity and gambling are common. Callousness/Lack of Empathy Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them. Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others. Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency Usually has a history of behavioral and academic difficulties, yet "gets by" by conning others. Problems in making and keeping friends; aberrant behaviors such as cruelty to people or animals, stealing, etc. Irresponsibility/Unreliability Not concerned about wrecking others' lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blames others, even for acts they obviously committed. Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity Promiscuity, child sexual abuse, rape and sexual acting out of all sorts. Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future, poor work ethic but exploits others effectively. Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility Changes their image as needed to avoid prosecution. Changes life story readily. Other Related Qualities: Contemptuous of those who seek to understand them Does not perceive that anything is wrong with them Authoritarian Secretive Paranoid Only rarely in difficulty with the law, but seeks out situations where their tyrannical behavior will be tolerated, condoned, or admired Conventional appearance Goal of enslavement of their victim(s) Exercises despotic control over every aspect of the victim's life Has an emotional need to justify their crimes and therefore needs their victim's affirmation (respect, gratitude and love) Ultimate goal is the creation of a willing victim Incapable of real human attachment to another Unable to feel remorse or guilt Extreme narcissism and grandiose May state readily that their goal is to rule the world (source) SoCrates

I think the lies and falsehood caught up with him.. I think at the end he died a helpless, disease ridden, bitter, angry man.. grasping at straws to the end. One whopper after another.. "I gave my EYE for da *ministry*.."

I don't doubt god told Saint Vic he'd teach the word like it was taught in the first century. The only question I'll ask: which god? SoCrates

Its possible. But those are usually the most pathetic form of con men. They believe their own line of bull. SoCrates

Yeah. VPW was the original "hybrid" He sure got a lot of mileage out of that "vehicle" he created.

I find it hard to believe he didn't realize he was lying when he plagiarized and claimed the works he put his name on were his own. Did he really not realize some of those writings were word-for-word replications of other authors?

VPW concocted a pretty huge story about himself... Snow on the gas pumps, "doctor", claiming he wrote books that he plagiarized, Hey! he invented the hookshot!...and drive in restaurants!...and was given the keys to the city in India, and saved the US from sure destruction...and.... well ... you get the idea....he was self inflated, grandiose and had a penchant for talltales... Im sure he told the truth some of the time but with him it was hard to tell what is true and whats not. He was very good at snowjobs. I know I would never count on him in a pinch to serve me the 'truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth' or anything necessarily closely to it.

I think of the guilt and pain heaped on people who were less than healthy. Where is your believing? Believing equals receiving, confession of belief yields receipt of confession, believing images of victory.....you must not be believing...I am believing for this.....mind pictures...God won't spit in your direction. . . . staying your mind...renewing your mind...practicing the presence of God.....SIT......out of the abundance of the heart......confess it......believe to be healed. The adversary, the adversary, the adversary .... You are going to die if you leave TWI. The devil is going to get you, posses you, kill you and you will deserve it too. Then they kicked out the most vulnerable and most needy of hearts like they were taking out the trash. Wasn't it VP who said..it was the fear in the heart of that mother that killed her child? People with sick children are already fragile...can you fathom what that kind of guilt and condemnation added to that fragile state can do to a human being? To a marriage..to a soul? It is very dark and evil doctrine they threw around like it was nothing but the gospel truth.

Johniam is not the only person who reads here...and I would like to think...and have occasionally been told...well, more than once recently....that these types of discussions can be very helpful to others.

I was wondering the same basic things, Ham. Only my way of putting it: Why are you coming here to do your witnessing? Your preaching to the ???(whats the opposite of choir?). Do you think we're going to have an epithany and suddenly think: "Hey, that Saint Vic he was a real stand up guy. Sure, he stole our lives. Sure, he couldn't keep his pants on. But, hey, that's our Vic, yuck, yuck. Bygones are bygones, so what, huh?" Sorry, thanks to someone else, most of us here sampled the wares your offering. We're still trying to hard to get the bad taste out of our mouths from that time and have no interest in another sample. SoCrates

Thank you, Broken Arrow and Old Skool In Twinky's origional topic, she said: Again, this info is 8 to 11 years old and may or may not currently apply to CFFM. In the late 90's CFF was brand new in a small town in western Ohio. Twinky wondered about CFF and the wider community. They started out by renting a closed church building until they built their own. And they had joined the local church organization and were actively involved in church community activities. They wanted to be on a good relationship with their fellow christian neighbors. John Shroyer, native born to western Ohio, wanted to be active with his local community. I did hear a few stories of CFF helping someone who had a need. One family had a member with some serious health problem, and CFF bought them a new minivan so they could get around. Again, when I first went, CFF was maybe two years old, and maybe 3-400 people. When I faded away, it was 4-5 years old and had 800 subscribers to it's sunday tapes. They were still a young organization and trying to figure things out. Also they were growing very fast, taking in many of the walking wounded of twi. Anyway a few more twi curioddities; In '73 and '74 even before there were official branches and limbs, the area leader kept the abs for a month and then turned it in to the limb leader. Said limb leader then kept it also for a month before turning it in to hq. If either the area or limb leader needed something that month, the cost came out of the abs. My area leader needed some tires because he traveled a lot to care for his people so that was taken frrom the abs. Somewhere in '74-5 hq called all abs directly in to hq because they said some were abusing the privilege. In the early days, when abs was local I did hear of a few little financial assistances when a believer had need. nothing big, but then we were all young semi-hippies and had little we needed at the time. A funny thing happened on the way to TWI's self destruction. Apparently a part of Geer's godification of the patriarch for personal use, abuse, and self gratification was abs should have been to help believers. Twi announced it would use some abs to help those with need. (At least to the IRS max of $3000 per individual.) Our branch lesder filed for a single mom who's young son had broken a leg and she recieved the $3000. By the time she got the money, the program was already gone.

What exactly does "reconciling men unto God to the church" mean? In that phrase there is somewhat of a confusion of destination there. I would contend that VP got 100,000 people to hear the gospel of VP. When you examine the personal lives of VP and Jesus Christ you see in VP an egotistical cult leader with a motor coach, expensive toys, a plane, who sexually abused people and verbally abused others. With Jesus Christ you see humility. Looking at the fruit makes the gospel of each much easier to ascertain.

Don't I recall a verse of two about Christ throwing the moneychangers out of the temple? Something about making my house a den of theives? Once you marketing yourself, it stops being about God and starts being about you. God gave us his word freely, freely it should also be given. ABS? That's from the heart, not because someone charges $50 for a book. Its from a feeling of thankfulness, not commerce. Your argument about quality also holds no water. So your telling me the minister whose giving people the bread of life on the street corner is presenting a poorer quality verson of the bible than someone, say, charging $100 for a class? If that were true, why didn't Christ charge? Why didn't the apostles? And they preached a purer form of the bible than we could ever get. Second of all, your comparing apples and oranges. The Eagles are about entertainment, not your personal relationship with God. And, as long as I'm at it, what happened to that give and it'll given onto you pressed down, shaken together, and running over schtick that the ministry is so good about handing out to people. What better to give then the word? Think of all the blessings they're missing out onby not giving people the class. The real way in wass designed to be was for the ministry to teach you about God, His blessings, and your relationship with Him and as you are blessed and recieve those blessings you ABS. Saint Vic knew not enough people would recive blessings from his line of bull (statistical probability states 1 in 10 would recieve whatever they thought was a blessing from the class), so he created a counterfiet way of getting what he should have through blessed peoples ABS. He charged for the class. Then when it got to be more about money and less about God, he emphasized ABS. Craigmeister finished the cycle by demanding ABS--or else. SoCrates

I got to spend some time with John Shroyer in 2001ish. He was a very compassionate man. Something that is little known about John is that when people were leaving TWI, John would take them in or put them up in a hotel so that they could decompress. He would help them get to where they wanted to be with cash, transportation, support. The folks that I knew that were helped by him told me about how generous and empathetic he was. Never did he try to convince them of CFF, he just wanted to help get their lives back on track.

Great post, Chock. That about sums up how I feel about "men of God" and their subsequent "organizations."

You know, I knew Wayne, and Kevin both back in their TWI days. They actually both were pretty decent guys for the most part. And Jon N3ssle too. I think Jon got scrwd over by Okus Lecherous Rantus Prime and that W@ll@c3 clown mentioned in the recent Hirschfeld thread. Wayne was the research guy behind most of the "far out" new stuff that was taught on the 2nd PFAL / FNC class Okus taught - well, N3ssle too. Rosie Rivitus Prime absolutely hated Wayne, as she does all people in some of his categories - men, and people with an IQ above 100 who don't prostrate themselves in front of her. He got treated very heavy-handed with all the schedule BS, really ridden hard. Then he got kicked out and put on probation. So it's just natural some of these guys when they've been treated as poorly as TWI treats about 95% of their people, to pick up and go across the street and start another church. To me, CFFM basically IS TWI, except they bill themselves as being more loving and caring. I mean, if you took all the BS garbage that TWI has been spewing in the last decade about being a "kinder, gentler ministry" and looked at it from a realistic perspective, that probably is CFFM for the most part. CFFM probably is the kinder gentler TWI. I guess it's a viable option for some, and with TWI becoming progressively more hard and stupid you may see a greater gravitation there over to CFFM. The TWI BOD made CFFM, and continue to make it viable. I hope as those guys grow they remember the lessons they learned from how they were treated and never do the same. Is there a problem with it? Well, here you have my soapbox kicking in here, so caveats and disclaimers all out front and all that. IMO, Jesus said you can't put new wine in old wineskins. And that is THE #1 MAIN PROBLEM with all these offshoots. These guys get treated poorly, get ....ed, and their first knee-jerk reaction is to go out there on a government website and start up their own 501-c or whatever corporation. WTF? Why is that necessary? They really aren't able to detach themselves from the doctrine of TWI and move on. They repeat the past. I mean look at the fiasco with JL and STF. Those guys managed to self-destruct within 10 years or so. IMO the main problem we have today with Christianity isn't the concepts, the teachings, the fellowships. It's what enters in when people try to make a profession out of it. 501-c regulates the flow of money. Why do you need a flow of money? One person can give a gift to another person without that. You can live Christian lives in your home, among families, in a community. When $$$ comes in, that's when you start to see motives and behavior change. You start to see man building up endless empires unto himself, organizations to "serve". And when you bring God into the mixture of all that it just is really problematic. Take CFFM for instance. Look at their most recent newsletter. You've got Kevin and an article witnessing to a gal on a plane, helping her. Good general stuff, but does it really need to be broadcast out across the nations? I mean I don't feel the need to blog about my plane conversations. Did the people in Acts do that? Circulate newsletters writing about their great escapades in witnessing? Well - Luke recorded them, but that's a 3rd person perspective (1st in places), but it's different. I'm kind of picking on Kevin - but he's got a job to do - the ABS pays his salary, so he has to crank out an article. And one about his efforts to expand the group is pretty standard. Then in CFFM's newsletter you have all the "Zone Happenings". OK. WTF is a "Zone"? One guy writes - "Are You in the Zone? If not, let us help you get there?". I mean, is this normal Christian language? WTF is a "Zone"? Am I playing defense on basketball here? You dig a little deeper and you find out that basically the "Zones" are equivalent to TWI's "Regions". You have Zone coordinators, and State coordinators or contacts. Already, we have people behaving like clowns and focusing on and highlighting their positions within CFFM over any Christian teachings or Bible verses. Where did this start? Well, at the top of course. You have the guys who picked up shop and are relatively reasonable guys starting to "ordain" other people. And have annual planning meetings. This grew into setting up a leadership structure. When you do that in many ways it values one person over another. Especially the higher up you go. At a local "fellowship" type level, it's just a person opening their home up for meetings. So there's a limit to how big the head can get. I mean - all these guys, they really want to live the book of Acts in our day and time? Why don't they look at it's greatest example - Paul. He basically had a craft and worked part time volunteer mostly. Sometimes people gave him money or put him up, but he didn't draw a salary. Oh but you say Jerusalem they had a leadership structure and full-time people. Yeah, they did - mostly to handle all the converts on Pentecost. However, human nature scrwd that one up too within Paul's lifetime, and those leaders got egotistical hard and legalistic. To me the lessons of the NT and Acts in general point me towards living Christianity in my home and with a small circle of friends and away from organized religion. I've had enough of God mixed in with human nature in an organized sense, and the only stomach I have recently for human nature to deal with is that of my own family. Small and contained, I can deal with it. All right, chockfull will get off the soapbox now. .02 out.

That's just insane, yet all too common from what I've seen. If a victim speaks out against their abuser, people in their insanity find a way to blame the abuser. I mean, just listen to that, "You shouldn't say anything because you're hurting the children and grandchildren." No, he abused you, you're telling the truth, and that is what is hurting the children and grandchildren, not you. I hope you keep telling your story. BTW, are SOWERS and CFFM the same thing? If they're embracing TWI doctrine then they're drinking from the same poisonous well and trying to get others to do the same. Give it time.

A way offshoot actually doing something? I'd like to hear otherwise,that theyre out building hospitals, schools or curing aids or something but its not very likely from any group that still reveres Wierwille. Self centeredness and way theology go hand in hand