Leaderboard

When some post about those warm, fuzzy feelings from the rock of ages.........I've got to admit, I had some of those experiences too. But after about my 4th roa....and being corps....those 6 hr - 12 hr work shifts, coupled with mandatory meetings and teachings in 98 degree weather for the next 18 years was enough to douse any fire of excitement. What is the backside of roa? I suppose it could be called by many names.....but, to me, its the out-of-sight areas that any state fair or rodeo or event tries to hide from view. You know.......the smelly trash compactors, the honey wagon (sewer wastage) detail for rv areas, the port-a-pottie cleanup, etc. Also, the food warehousing area..... the staging and prep areas..... are massive undertakings for 18,000 people eating day after day. Like most people.......I never minded working 4 to 6 hour shifts. That was no big deal......but when the shift was under-staffed or the workload kept growing......the corps were first in line to do the extra work. Not just one shift or one day, but throughout the TWO WEEKS (corps week & roa). And, the intense heat added to the challenge.....along with drenching downpours at night to soak everything in your tent. Add, a sour throat and dehydration......and it made for a very tough time in O-Hell-NO. And to top it off.....some of us corps had hq staff work coordinators. These were the ones who: ...1) Did NOT travel for two days and 800 miles to even get to Ohio. ...2) Slept in a dry, air-conditioned trailer unit (or founders' hall) and got good sleep. ...3) Drove around cushmans and hob-nobbed with their staff buddies. ...4) Had their suit and tie hanging in a closet and ready for every corps meeting. ...5) Sat around and delegated the workload. ...6) The field corps provided a major portion of the worker bees for roa. ...7) Etc. etc......I think you get my drift. :) Corps were separated from their children during corps week. Not a bad thing......unless health issues surfaced or someone was dishing out unreasonable confrontation to your kid. Yeah, the backside of roa was alot of hard, gruelling work. And, to top it off..........very little thanks. The guys on main stage, the teachers and smooshers basked in the spotlight. So.....no, forgive me if I don't quite remember those "warm, fuzzy feelings" from roa.

I'm not sure where to begin to comment on this. :o

The rock of ages "festival"....................was cheapness to the bone. Everything about roa was FURTHER EXPLOITATION of the cult followers. Months in advance........in-residence corps at hq worked to clean, paint, fix, and organize roa material. Weeks in advance.........staff workers, mostly way builders, were assigned projects to handle the thousands who came to roa. Corps Week..................wierwille manipulated all corps grads to attend roa each year by first attending his "corps week." This corps week exploited all corps grads to work 4-6 hours each day as the cult geared up the food and delivery systems. Then, wierwille blasted any corps who didn't stay ALL of roa.......to help put on the roa [in-house slave labor]. WOW ambassadors returned and others were sent out......providing their own $500 and vehicles, and yearly sales service of pfal. Family Tables were side venues of attraction, distraction and cheap entertainment......good heart, but cult exploitation. Muddy parking lots, tent city, smelly porta potties and cold showers............cheapness to the bone. Food pavilions were staffed by field corps and advanced class grads, mostly..........doesn't everyone want to work a 4-6 hr shift? Same old, same old evening teachings every year........sit butt in crappy folding chair for 2 1/2 hours every night. Dress codes in the cornfield cult..............crap! Sure, put on your suit and tie for the occasion......spiritual protocol insanity!! With each year......more baby strollers, nursing mothers, toddlers and young teens. Yet, very little new venues of interest. The twit-cult had NO IDEA of engaging new interests..........it was simply a cult of manipulation and exploitation. After 3 years.......I found the rock of ages as mostly drudgery and mundane monotony. Good Riddance to all of it............... Crazy days of youth, for sure. I can hardly believe that I allowed myself to be dragged thru the cult's annual pilgrimage for all those years. Yet, deep down......I dissented because it wreaked of "using and abusing" others for personal gain. Oftentimes, those who came hardly had enough money for food and travel.......AND.......left the rock of ages with no money to travel home. Thankfully, today..........our two sons are cult-free and have no attachments, good or bad, to the cheap cult. It truly is amazing how far the distance is between the cheap cult environment of my past and the travel destinations that they, today, enjoy. Don't get me wrong. There is nothing wrong with camping.........but there is something drastically wrong-headed with camping in tent city, waking up to blaring "Beautiful Ohio" music at 7am, herded towards a cold shower, working 6 hours a day at a mandated-festival, and required to wear suit and tie in a cornfield. Those were the days, my friend.................... .

Welcome to Pot Talk. I'm your host Linda Richman and I'm feeling a little verklempt right now since I can't find my rolling papers....so talk amongst yourselves.

Pretty sure the only waybrain here is the one who moves the goalposts, changes definitions of commonly accepted words while expecting everyone else tl adopt his definitions despite their inaccuracy. You want to talk about a hateful insult? Your hypocrisy has now joined your incapacity to comprehend what you read on the list of things that should embarrass you but for some reason don't.

Oh the memories........the good, the bad and the ugly. Yeah......the rock of ages gave way to a wide berth of experiences....... .....or ....or The Backside of ROA

Subject repeatedly refuses to acknowledge that his fantasy of a made up God does not resemble the character of Yahweh which is the subject of this discussion. Engages in amateur psychoanaltsis that is insulting to the core while hypocritically accusing his "debate" opponent of being hateful. Prescription: Grade school education.

"Cherry picking", or "Counting the hits and ignoring the misses." When a person believes they will be successful, REALLY believes it, and they're a tremendous flop and a cipher, nobody hears about it and nobody cares. That happens A LOT. When a person believes they will be successful and is-or announces after becoming successful that it was because they "always believed they'd be", then it's counted as "proof" that believing does that. All the other people were "proof" it doesn't. Any guess how many people are supremely confident they will win this week's lottery and turn out not to win it? I bet there's a LOT more of them than people who hit it.

I haven’t heard John L “teach” in a long time... it was like listening with fresh ears…and then it hit me…the amount of effort and emphasis he puts into the way he talks comes across like he’s speaking to a foreigner who barely understands any English…or to someone who has a mental disability…maybe it’s just the figure of speech condescensio patronizium.

Yeah........the blatant double-standard on full display. The wierwille heritage was embraced because he and his family were silver-spoon special. Yet......we, the little people, were scolded that it was "worldly" to highlight our families. Wierwille showcased his dogs, Harleys and porn movie.......hypocrisy much? [/sarc] Yet......pets and possessions were scoffed at from the preaching podium. Wierwille boasted about his individual pursuits, adventures and interests. Yet......the "little people" endured verbal abuse to keep running classes. No life. No love. No living.......in The Way. We were on the clock to sell their soap.

At least it measures up to the elephant poop portion of it.

The fundamental thing that Wierwille taught was that the church is a new thing, completely seperate and discontinuous from Israel, whose very existence was kept secret until it was revealed to the apostle Paul. The truth is that the church is the believing remnant of Israel, under the New Testament promised to that remnant in Jeremiah 31, with believing gentiles grafted in on the same basis as believing Israel, by grace through faith. Wierwille's doctrine was NOT some truth that had been lost since the first century, it was a perversion invented by John Darby in the 19th century, and popularized by the Scofield reference Bible in the early 20th. There's a folksy TV teacher named Les Feldick who teaches almost exactly the same thing about "administrations" that Wierwille did. Feldick claims he has never received any formal training, that he got everything he's teaching just from reading the Bible. Well... he must be reading a Scofield reference Bible. I feel sorry for John Lynn, John Schoenheit and Mark Graeser. Every bit of the misery they've suffered, they've brought on their own heads, in spite of numerous and frequent cautions. They know too much in their own eyes to be admonished, even by the Bible itself. They know more about the Bible than God does! Love, Steve

In contrast, here is what JAL is NOW teaching. (2:54-4:51) "One of the most amazing things about this is it's the same old lie that the devil has told for centuries. He just keeps repackaging it. And, the lie is that people can be like God in the sense that we can initiate things from within our minds. And, the thoughts we have within our little craniums somehow go forward into the universe. They go out of our craniums, into the universe and they bring us red sports cars or they bring bad things to those we don't like or one thing or another. And, it is a total lie and it's total nonsense. The sad thing is when it infiltrates the church, which it has to way too large a degree. In essence, what this law of attraction says is that whatever you get is because of something you thought SNIP Sometimes it's called the law of believing.But, it's not true." .......................... It was bad enough when people (on previous threads) were comparing VPW to a modern day David. And, now, here you are comparing JAL to a modern day Paul. There is nothing Biblical about VPW or JAL. It's a farce to think they (were/are) doing something of Biblical proportions.

Radar......no offense intended to you and other hq staff who put in excessive hours at roa. Hope you got my private message that I sent you. And yeah.....I, too, was an hq staffer for three years. During Living Victoriously, I was working 18 hours a day to keep up with the workload. So.....welcome to the backside of major events. :)

First, foremost and always...........wierwille (twi) did not comprehend and accept THE DYNAMIC AND CHANGING RESPONSIBILITIES OF CORPS GRADS who were attempting to get established in a community (physically, financially, socially, etc.) and live a lifetime of Christian service. Those who lived furthest from New Knoxville, Ohio.....like say California, Alaska, Hawaii (what about those international corps???) had to pony-up some serious cash for taking 16-18 days off work. And, as the years passed.....marriage, family, career advancement, growing responsibilities, etc confronted each corps grad who made the yearly trek to ohio. And, let's not forget to mention......throughout the year, for these corps grads there were Limb mtgs, Branch mtgs, Corps mtgs, weekly Twig mtgs, and all the VOLUNTEER WORKLOAD of overseeing a good-sized Branch. Pregnant corps wives were becoming a part of the equation. Guys left their pregnant wife back home....and prayed that she wouldn't go into labor until they got back. And, as the years passed....little babies were a disturbance at corps week. Now what?? THE DYNAMIC AND CHANGING RESPONSIBILITIES OF CORPS GRADS......and cultdom had no answer. Wierwille's only way of dealing with it was to confront the corps on their commitment to "a lifetime of Christian service." Yeah.........that worked. Why not give profound public thanks at corps week for all corps grad participation?? Why not take a day at the roa and credit the way corps for their on-going faithfulness and countless hours of giving to twi?? Rather than just having corps promos.......why no have a few select corps give testimonials of their lives and growing responsibilities as a result of their corps training? Why not??.........because wierwille was so ego-driven that he couldn't see beyond his nose and the scriptures on the podium. From one corps grad to many............THANK YOU CORPS for your amazing labor of love.

The drinking and pot smoking hasn't really been talked about very much here (except for VPW's boozing, not a lot of pot talk) But when TWI was hopping in the 70's (at least in my experience in The Bronx) there was a lot of pot smoking, some of it went on after twig! There was, as has been discussed, a big Jesus element to the hippie movement in the 70's. Seems weird to today's "hippies". Even Bob Dylan went thru a Jesus phase. It was something to try along with Buddha, pot, yoga and anything else that promised to bring "enlightenment". A lot of that pot smoking made it to TWI in the 80's and not just with "the kids". Since it's a crime (???) I won't name names but there were plenty of "leaders" smoking weed. And the booze was not unique to VPW. The two drink limit is one of the biggest TWI hoaxes of them all. And I agree with Igotout: "My theory is the more legalism and incorrect doctrine you are placed under the more self medication is needed to "escape" the bonds of religiosity." There's a reason "the preacher's daughter" stereotype exists. Kids rebel, that's a fact. The more taboo you place on them, the more they NEED to find out for themselves. We Junior Corps compensated for the abuse and lies and pain with sex, drugs and rock n roll. We were BAD, worse than your average teen. ROA was a party to us. And we earned it! Try being made to go to school where the kids make fun of you all day for being in a cult, witness to a group of uninterested KIDS, participate in extra curricular activities (sports), come home and work on a farm, do your home work, go to twig EVERY NIGHT, be ridiculed (reproved) all day long for every little thing, be beaten by whoever had the closest wooden spoon for any minor offense, take classes (PFAL, Intermediate and CF&X with a perverted teacher, dealing with the adversary and other HEAVY TOPICS), wake up at five to pray and read the bible, work out and repeat schedule. It was way too much for any kid to have to go through. It's no wonder we drank, smoked and had sex. ROA was our Mardi Gras. Unsupervised madness. Pure rebellion. These days, when I tell my friends this stuff they think I'm making it up. Also at ROA and Score Week there was some mixing of young "adults" with older teens: sex and booze. It's just amazing.

Hey Rascal I remember the WOW training in 1979 (that was the year i was sent to Wyoming as WOW) and all the water and rain. TWI having the guys in one area in the BIG top tent and the gals in another section. And when the water still wasn't under controll they moved us over to one of the storage areas that they used for materials and stuff with the landing on the top of the stairs that led down where all of us poor little WOW's were sitting where Dr. VPW used it as a podium. I also remember going to the training for 3 or 4 hours in the morning taking a break just long enough for us to wolf down 1 or was it 2 WOW burgers and then having to go back for a few more hours in the afternoon for more training. From what i remember it was pretty much repetitive stuff.

good god, i remember telling my potential new employer in the interview i would have to take 2 weeks off without pay in august what a privilege, take your "vacation" without pay, spend 2 weeks working your azz off, and getting yelled at, that is my definition of heaven yeah we drank like fools because we were fools ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha plus it's nice to do that when you're with friends and you're in denial about your whole stupid life in a cult ;) getout, i can't remember the teen boys, i must have been too drunk

Georgio, Well since you were the first to admit it, I'll follow suit. You teens were not the only ones who had a corner or partying. We always got SMASHED at Corps week and ROA but it was always at our hotel and around the pool at S & W. We came to many a teaching smashed and just hung out in the back or skipped it all. Our first stop when we got to St. Mary's was the local liquor store. I literally had to recuperate from ROA and Corps week when we got home to our normal lives. So much of TWI was a breeding ground for partying and such. My theory is the more legalism and incorrect doctrine you are placed under the more self medication is needed to "escape" the bonds of religiosity. Why is it soooo many of us drank and smoked and went wild including TOP leadership? To keep our sanity and have some fun along the way, I suppose. That does not mean it was right. It was just a part of the underbelly of TWI. Sex too. I knew a few leaders who were simply alchoholics? Another I knew smoked pot at Emporia regularly. The party ended with LCM. In some ways he was right in trying to put an end to it all and make TWI more conservative in our behavior. Problem is he forced it on us and he did not walk the walk himself. The party really ended in my opinion when POP was read and the "Division Bell" was rung. Probably a good thing it happened. PS - One year I remember seeing a couple teen boys at the "cheap beer fest" who were so smashed they could hardly walk. I wonder if one of them was you?? We just laughed. No one said anything. No one did anything. We should have.

igotout..........you rebel you. Too much is right. Heck, corps week evolved into little more than WORK WEEK for us peon corps.....and gave certain mogs time to check out their kingdom. Besides working to put on the finishing touches of roa.....and way prod rehearsals..... and get the food production up and running.....corps week became another in-house workload. Lots of work to do because 3,000 people gathered in one place generate their own set of maintenance. Why didn't HQ STAFF do the dirty work.....the trash compactor work, the honey wagon, the porto-potties, the food warehousing/transporting/prep work???? Heck no!!! The office boys and girls wouldn't soil their hands and break a sweat. And, the grounds staff had grass to mow. And, housekeeping personnel still had offices to clean and trustee homes to upkeep. The field corps did the dirty work.......being at the bottom of the command chain, ye know. We were the ones who did the disgusting work detail.......for frickking free...!!! And, to me.....the bottom line was NOT money. It was thankfulness and appreciation for "the corps household" working together. But no........when did wierwille ever give a heart-felt THANK YOU to the multitude of worker bees?? Heck, he expected us to jump......without hesitation, without question. Martindale picked up on this same abuse....where wierwille left off. And yeah....I would fully agree that ROA was alot more fun for the non-corps. Some of them came in mid-week.....stayed 3 or 4 days....and left whenever.

After a few ROA's beginning in '74 I began got sick of it. In 1975 we should have all been given a refund. It was no more than a big muddy mess. IMO ROA should have been handled like other large conventions with hotels and convention staff to do the dirty work. There should have been no tent city or muddy parking in cornfields, etc. We began staying in a hotel room year after year (if you were lucky enough to find one.) In that part of Ohio at that time they were all pretty lousy. When we were "strongly encouraged" to go to BOTH Corps week (nicknamed Score Week) and ROA it was too much. We rarley went to both, just a week in the middle of both. VPW was furious at those of us who did that. Then they had the nerve to ask us to take off work and come to Ohio and work for two weeks! I never agreed with that. I rarely worked. I was one of the ones who protested the very idea and simply did not show up for my assigned work duty. Word in Business was more my style. Even then we had to work because we were Corps. Sheesh! I think ROA was more fun for non Corps. We were of "all men most pitied." I look back now and realize the time should have been spent with my real family, the ones they called "Earthly" as in that verse in James 3 about things "Earthly sensual and devilish." If anything I would say ROA was pretty earthly. Ha!

(((rascal))) Awww......another worker bee in our midst. Wowsers....you bring to mind the DANGEROUS SITUATIONS that we endured time and time again. Wasn't it 1985, at corps week, when that major thunderstorm was pooling on the roof of the Big Top? The tent top was sagging more and more.....and one guy had to climb up there and cut a hole to relieve the pressure?? All the while........martindale (or whoever) was trying to teach. Assinine situations.......everyone was fastened on the turmoil, and martindale was ignoring it. Like.....the word must be taught tonight. Sheeeeesh........sicko arrogance. And, yeah...........I got extremely dehydrated and sick one year while I was staying in the corps tents. Two others around me had the same symptoms. For two days, I was vomiting and got the dry heaves. Did twi have people checking on us?????? NO... NO... NO......no time for that. The backside of roa..........showed very little care or compassion for the way corps. Here, we were the major portion of the labor force.....and, unlike the hq staff worker who was still collecting a paycheck during these two weeks.....THE FIELD CORPS GAVE 16 DAYS TO TRAVEL TO OHIO, INCUR ALL THESE EXPENSES, AND DO GRUELLING WORK FOR FREE. Another point.........roa evolved into little more that a money-making/ promotional venture for twi. Heck, after 1977......I don't recall any healing services at roa. No demonstration of God's power on display..... just mouthing of scriptures and cliches. And later still, twi implemented mandatory twigs at 11 am every day with your current assignment or state.......to control the flow of information and full fellowship. Those of us who saw the backside of roa (physically and spiritually)......have replaced those warm, fuzzy feelings with weeks of august tranquil relaxation.

Skyrider...first off though too little too late.... THANKYOU! :) I always volunteered to work at each roa...but it was only one shift a day so had no idea what the rest of you guys endured to put on roa. Yeah, everything flooded in my tent numerous times and was ruined (including my dad`s wonderfull 35 m nikon camera)...sigh The sickness was really scarey when you were stuck in a stifeling tent too weak to crawl out to get water or food for yourself...The water was contaminated in 81/82 ( think it was) many of us got deathly ill. I think that it is the first time that I ever realised that I could possibly die because there was nobody to check on me or care or help me on to grounds.......I cannot imagine having a sick child in those conditions :( Walking in 100 degree plus heat in stockings and heels on gravel WAS rediculous....omg that wow parade in 85 where we walked a mile or two in in the humidity guys in three piece suits...girls stifeling in stockings ...each step agony in those heels........nearly finished us all off before we got on the field gasp! The incredibly dangerous storms in 86 or 87 with lightening crashing down all around us while we cowered in our flattened tents.... Water flooding into the big top in wow training in 79 slowly rising around our ankles as we listened to teachings...wondering what was going to happen with all of the electric power cords that were on the ground as well....