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Friends at the Café, the most wonderful thing happened in church this week. The vicar (Paul) was preaching on “Fatherlessness” and our resistance to authority. It was a very tender sermon. His tenet was that was a father most wants for his children is for them to be Safe, and that’s why He gives instruction and guidance. Paul acknowledged that some fathers have been very bad, even abusive; and he also acknowledged that some churches have bad leadership and have been abusive towards the congregation. He emphasized that we need to know the scriptures, to know the difference between true and false prophets. At the end of the sermon, one of the musicians gently played the guitar whilst Paul prayed, Then there was a hymn and after the hymn, although Paul doesn’t like to speak or go back to his sermon after its conclusion, he said he felt the Lord wanted him to say something. What he said was this: I’m sorry, I don’t remember his precise words; this is the gist. It was heartfelt. He apologized. Apologized! It was a spontaneous thing: the sermon is posted on the internet and the church is big enough that we have two identical services back to back in the morning. He didn’t say this the first time round, only at the second service, that I attended. Perhaps because of the “WayGB is monitoring” thread and my own earlier post on this, just wanting an apology – this was so appropriate, so wonderful. By this time, tears were leaking out of my eyes in a significant way. It was tears of thankfulness to my Father, tears of love and grace, tears of joy. I doubt any apology will ever be forthcoming from TWI. But I got the apology my heart desired, even if God had to work in the heart of a minister from a completely different church, to deliver it. I'm posting this on the “WayGB is monitoring” thread and starting a new thread. I want anyone there who is reading this to understand that God has arranged an apology on their behalf; and the effect that apology has had. See? Saying sorry is easy! To other hurt people: this may be the only apology you get, too. It was heartfelt. Try to accept it. I am not the only cult escapee in this congregation. I know there are at least two Plymouth Brethren from different groups; don’t know who else, and there are other people who have come from legalistic church backgrounds of all denominations. Paul knows the damage that can be done. Suggest if you want to comment on the apology, you do so on this thread and not on the WayGB thread

There ARE some tech wizards who started out as nerds and geeks, and now are on top- society has shifted somewhat over the decades. Bol was pointing out that the school-level stuff often does not- where the assertive, alpha jock is celebrated, and is excused if he breaks the rules, even at the expense of the nerd, who is ignored since he's not socially- exceptional, and ends up surviving his encounters with a bully rather than having recourse. Some places have changes written down that show zero-tolerance for bullies, but in practice, it's still done, often in front of adults, with adults excusing it as "rough play" or other names when they ignore it. I think there have been SOME changes, but in some places, it's exactly the same as it was a generation ago.

Sky, your posts are a continual delight to me!! I think in the end he knew he had failed, in a major way. I think he may have been afraid to face God; he knew he had strayed far from the Word. Someday all of us will have to face God for our actions in this world. I think at the end of his life, VPW knew that he would have to face God, and be held accountable for his behavior. I know that someday God will hold me accountable for my actions; thus everyday I attempt to treat people in a manner that is acceptable, and pleasing to God.

Similar thing happened with Hitler. He spoke grievances to a large audience, the crowd applauded. Nobody, can resist that, his ego grew. Our interactions with others do affect our reality.

Way, I was often bullied in school, but I was bullied much more at home, by my brothers. I think we as adults, need to teach our kids that bulling is wrong, and unacceptable behavior.

Yes Grace ! i think I could have gotten a PhD from the corps program PhD = Piled higher and deeper = Permanent head damage good thing I dropped out

In case there's still anyone wondering why this sort of thing happens FAR from twi and not NEAR (as in, not from splinter groups), twi damages the members in a number of ways. One is in what it teaches as practice and what it demonstrates by doing. By showing no compassion for others (the top cadre sometimes get some pathos, everyone else has to "renew their mind" or something) and by exerting no effort for those who are hurt, they show that we are to treat people like machines, and not like people. That can affect twi survivors in lots of ways. As for ex-twi who fancy themselves leaders, it helps harden their hearts. They can even NEED compassion themselves (like when twi kicked them out or when they left), but they fail to understand the lesson they need to learn, which is that THEY will need compassion at points, and so will everyone else. So, they treat people like REVENUE SOURCES, and NOT like people who may suffer and need prayer, compassion, a shoulder to cry on, a sympathetic ear, someone to bring over dinner or help write a resume, or SOMETHING. All the actual "ministering" to people, helping them and so on, all of that is done TO the alleged "minister". The "minister" never actually MINISTERS. He preaches some Bible, but when someone needs some help, it's the "minister" who gets some, never him lending a hand for the congregant. That's why we get endless mailing lists as ex-ministers hop from group to group as they wear out their welcome, ignorant and unrepentant as to why everyone thinks they have a heart of stone. They'll go to their graves and never get it.

Maybe wierwille was ovulating at the time Actually my joke is referencing something wierwille said in an Advanced Class - he was relating an incident about his supposedly ministering to a woman (hey, what's all that snickering in the back ?!) ....wierwille said HIS ovaries hurt and then he realized "the father" was showing him he needed to pray for the woman's ovaries.... what if HIS breasts hurt ? Yikes ! What's next? The laying on of hands?! Let me bring forth a word of retroactive prophecy - wierwille go f0c k yourself! ....Hmmmm bonus features - that may have been a quantum leap of faith and maybe some discerning of spirits thrown in for good measure....not sure.... but I always say "covet earnestly the best gifts." Considering the variety of topics Skyrider listed I will say this - I tend to think wierwille and company were qualified to teach on at least one thing.....the fine art of indoctrination.

Great post Twinky - I'm glad you bumped it up....and a good reminder to appreciate former TWI clergy - and of course those who had served in any capacity - that now contribute to Grease Spot in telling the other side of the story.... ...I just wanted to add something to what you talked about in the latter part of this post; I can't imagine an apology coming directly from top leadership of TWI being enough to resolve all the damage done to followers - although it would be a good place to begin... perhaps for the time being Grease Spot may function as a surrogate "minister" or rather a "ministry " composed of decent, honest and caring folks intent on exposing these false prophets...speaking for myself, Grease Spot has done wonders toward a speedy recovery from life in a cult; that's not to say I'm all healed and everything is peachy keen now...but my life is a million times better now since I left that cult...and that I now refer to TWI as a cult is a giant step in the recovery process. It's like finally getting out of an abusive relationship after realizing my people-picker was broken...or rather my church-picker was broken. And to anyone still in TWI or offshoots all I have to say is physician heal thyself...quit thinking your god's gift to an ignorant world - open your eyes and take a good look at the damaging and long lasting effects of wierwille's legacy - - in your own life and in those you "minister" to.

Just bumping this up. For some reason, this thread has been on my heart lately. Perhaps there is someone here who needs to read this. (I'm sure Grace VC will get to it eventually)

Wierwille liked his Harleys......for sure. But I tend to believe that young wierwille wanted, more than anything, to be a respected and revered man in the New Knoxville community. According to Mrs. W's book, victor was greatly influenced by the Dr. L.H. Kunst who commanded the attention and respect of the German Reformed Church in New Knoxville. The book depicts a photo taken on "The Great Day of Dedication" -- August 19, 1894. Could it be that wierwille "wished" he'd been a man like Dr. Kunst? Did vpw "wish" he could walk about town and have the respect of businessmen, local politicians, and devout donors.....rather than shunned by the locals? Could it be that wierwille knew that his fawning followers were the product of manipulation and exploitation.....rather than bedrock principles and honored respect? Would a narcisstic man be content with a rag-tag youth movement and NOT the real levers of power in the community? IMO....Wierwille's "Rosebud" was to be a prominent Church Minister who wielded power and influence and a lasting legacy. He desired that his own father would respect his achievements. Even wierwille's "doctorate" was questionable....and he knew it. Looking for shortcuts and quick answers, he resorted to plagairism. In the end, wierwille had to face the man in the mirror and knew he failed.

Broken Arrow.....your mention of "Rosebud" just might have hit closer to home than most think. For those who haven't seen the movie, Citizen Kane,....the search for "Rosebud" is on when Mr. Kane, an enormously weath media proprietor, whispers it in his dying breath. Wierwille moved his ministry operations back to the Wierwille Homestead in 1962. He reminisced his childhood years at many of those corps nightowls in the Way Woods. He and Harry worked together to restore and expand the wierwille house. He had the BRC built within walking distance of his parents' home. He had the barn restored and a focal point of way promotion brochures. He built his life's work on little or no legitimate research work (like Kanes' yellow journalism). He withdrew from public view and grudgingly faded in the spotlight of recognition. He planned and requested burial near the wierwille homestead, near his brother Harry. What was Wierwille's "Rosebud?"

Fellow Laborers of Ohio was supposed to be focused on doing a two year, in-depth study of Acts and then returning to our hometowns as better equipped leaders. Instead, we lived in, what was, essentially, a commune..... not the flower power, free drugs and sex kind you see in movies and the like. (In fact, drugs and sex outside of marriage were forbidden) There was very little academic study at all. We spent most of our time tending the garden, repairing the grounds and buildings, maintaining the food co-op and keeping our living quarters clean and organized. The blatant lack of any real academic pursuit was, by far, the most disappointing aspect of the program. And, yet, I see people on-line, gushing about the great "spiritual truths" they learned by pulling weeds and such. Were there any valuable lessons to be learned from the experience? Sure, you can learn at least "something" from virtually any experience in life. But, was there any academic value in the teachings? I would have to answer with a resounding "NO".

Yep, LCM's teachings were major rants. Soon after I went in rez he spent the two hours or whatever going on and on and on about how devilish homosexuality was. "Well," I thought, "If anyone had doubts or actually did that stuff, they surely know now how wrong it is." The same again next week. I thought: "There must be something very serious here. Who is not listening?" Then the next week. And the one after. And for some months. I learned more than I care to know about what LCM says homosexuals do. Is any of it true? Who knows? And the defaming...I've shared here before about a Rev whose daughter died (I believe she'd got into drugs in an effort to cope with her TWI upbringing). Instead of compassion, LCM banned anyone from speaking to Rev and his wife. Rev was clearly not fit to be a minister because he didn't have good oversight of his household. Anyone who spoke to them was to be M&A'd. (You can tell LCM had a longsuit in compassion and empathy, can't you?) Another man's wife died in childbirth (the child survived). It was the parents' (epecially the wife's) fault because she didn't listen to some TWI-head of a doctor. And the wife was too egotistical and insisted in giving birth in the way she wanted to. (There's that longsuit in compassion again!) I could go on... Yet sometimes he could bring that energy into expounding a piece of scripture. And then it seemed (to me, at the time) to be rich and passionate. ('Course, I had serious Waybrain then.) Some of it was genuinely interesting. I thought it awesome at the time. When he stopped being so angry and settled down to teach in a reasonable manner, it could be very interesting. Does it have some value now? I'd have to say, just reading and spending time thinking, meditating, reflecting...has far more value. And is far more memorable. Remember, under LCM's reign of terror, we were taught to be confrontational. We had a responsibility before God to confront error. I think it only impressed, really, because I'd heard too many wishy washy sermons in a previous church life and no church minister seemed passionate for God. I remember how he presented - not what he presented. But now... ...if I were to listen to any Corps Night teaching now...what would I think? Probably, this guy's a nutter. God doesn't deal with people like that. JC didn't condemn the mass of people like that, only the hypocrites. JC's disciples didn't condemn people but reached out with practical help. And this man who yells and gets red in the face, spittle flying...has what part, exactly, in the ministry of reconciliation?

The centerpiece of corps teachings revolved around "Corps Night." In the '70s, corps night was scheduled on Tuesdays....like 7:30pm - 10:15pm. Around 1980 or so, twi moved the corps nights to Wednesday....because it came so quickly on the heels of Sunday Night teachings. Then, in 1995, when all corps were put on twi's payroll.....martindale decided to move this corps meeting to Wednesday mornings, so field corps would be available to their people on Wednesday evening, if needed. Corps teachings covered the gamut: ...Dale Carnegie, The Greatest Salesman in the World, Life is Tremendous ...Memory pegs, Christian Communication, Competent to Counsel ...Jet-Style Packing, Menstruation Periods, Listening with a Purpose ...MAL-Packs, Survival Living, Red Dawn Scenarios, Hunter's Safety Course ...Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, Keys to Research, Fig. of Speech, etc. ...JCOP, JCOPS, JC is Not God, Acts, Epistles, etc. Corps teachings were designed for ONE PURPOSE -- TWI INDOCTRINATION. Wierwille wanted fully-equipped class instructors to run his classes. Not leaders, not teachers, not decision-makers......but soldiers who would jump on command. The commander-in-chief barked his orders and all was right in "his" world. Anyone who STILL touts this corps "training" as awesome....hasn't connected the dots, yet.

I was a relative new comer to the corps so was not around for Vic, or the forehead's either. However, I did spend a lot of time sneaking their old corps teaching's in-residence. With VPW there was a portion of the tapes that were actual bible teachings. But it usually seemed that a tangent was not far behind. Usually scolding the corps body for one thing or another. Craig was just horrible. He would publicly defame people who had just left or had been dropped from the corps, or da ministry. He would rant and rave about this and that, scream, yell, shoot way off into left field. I mean from what I heard those teachings would have made any dictator proud of him. Under Rosalie the teaching became a snore fest. Yelling would have been preferred. And following suit with the STS, teachers were assigned, read a transcript line by line - verbatim in a monotone voice, and the content was rehashed from "proven ministry research." In short, I used to loathe the though of the approaching corps mornings. At least Rosalie is so old that she cut the meetings to once a month or so. Rosalie the Merciful To answer your question. The teachings made no difference in my life and I did endeavor to apply what I could. IMHO - more empty promises and marketing to get people into the corps.

That's the difference between a genuine minister and false ministers. Genuine ministers are able to see the wounds of the sheep and apply dressings to heal. False ministers cause the wounds, deny their involvement, refuse to acknowledge that there are any wounds, if confronted by the abundance of evidence of the wounds they blame the sheep all the while themselves subsisting on that which the sheep provide. Also, their conscience is seared with a hot iron so they don't even see they are like that. Which is why you have to spell it out in terms a kindergartner can understand. Genuine ministers behave like the gentleman you describe above. False ministers behave like the BOD in TWI.