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Today TWI and Westboro Baptist Church would not only picket me but would seek to do harm to me. I came out just over a year ago

We know history repeats. We know, or it is apparent, that ancients took these same stories that are repeated today and projected them into the stars. It's only logical to see converging, apparently correlating, patterns today. We looked through a child's telescope last night and saw the moons of Jupiter. I saw three moons. Another saw Four. According to the charts there was only a slight possibility of seeing four at that hour. I couldn't see four. Maybe the other person could. We have different sets of eyes. I think the answer to the question of the opening post is yes, you see SOMETHING, not NOTHING. I know I see SOMETHING. If all we're aiming for here is SOMETHING, that's not much of a target though.

No one is being mocked or attacked.Perhaps a slightly different approach might move things along. My suggestion would be to break the hypothesis into more bite-size pieces and deal with them on a more individualized level. Pick a more particular scripture, or section of scripture, and deal with it specifically.

I'm not mocking you, I'm questioning the methodology you're using. There's a big difference. In fact, I applaud your curiosity and efforts. When you research a subject...any subject...you can't latch on to findings that bolster your preconceived hypothesis at the expense of ignoring those that contradict it. That's what is meant by confirmation bias. It's not unique to people studying the Bible, either. Scientists can fall victim, as well, if the refuted findings jeopardize their funding. That's where the process of peer review enters the picture. Credibility of sources becomes an issue, too. For example, one of your sources has a cross-link to this article discussing the possibility we descended from space aliens. Maybe we did. Maybe we didn't. What I'm questioning here is the method the author used to arrive at such an extraordinary conclusion. Again, I'm not putting you down, bashing Wierwille or disagreeing with the scriptures. I simply don't agree with this type of approach to the subject.

I agree that God gives us astronomical signs and they are relevant even in our day and time. We should take note especially if these things occur on the Jewish feast days. However, the book of Revelation is symbolism which is referring to events that took place during the Roman attack on Israel(a.k.a The Great Tribulation) from 66-73AD, a seven year period. The 42 months or 3 1/2 years was the beginning of the campaign to the destruction of Jerusalem & the 2nd Temple(Matt 24:1,2) in 70AD. Revelation 12 is referring to a Babylonian constellation. Here is a commentary on this: http://revelationrevolution.org/revelation-12-a-preterist-commentary/

Lots of numbers and verses. My gut would suggest statistical fallacy. https://flowingdata.com/2012/05/03/common-statistical-fallacies/

Nice poems. Very expressive. Of course that means we'll have to have a haiku thread as well as a limerick thread.

i love you too java and dabo :wub: thanks for the poem operabuffie. i decided to write one too :) hope you don't mind wierwille had a little weenie that's why he was such a meanie keep this in your deep lock box okay, i will, you slimy fox i thought you were the man of god but you were just a big f-u-c-k-wad you tell a girl who wants to die to be with you is to be alive i would rather lay their dead than be with you in that bed how dare you use god's grace in vain and cause so much destructive pain was it worth destroying souls i guess it was, you were so cold

Thought I would try my hand at poetry... Wierwille had a little weenie, its juice was white as snow; And everywhere that Wierwille went, the weenie was sure to grow. He plumped it in the motorcoach, which was against the rules; It made the girls all cry and say, that weenie isn't cool. And yet The Teacher kept it up, and still he hovered near, And waited patiently about till another girl did appear. "Why does the weenie love me so?" the moaning girls all cried; "It's good to be alive, you know" The Teacher did reply.

I've watched friends be manipulated, brain-washed, and their pockets picked for 20 some years now by The Way. It is a corrupt, money stealing organization ... period.

Now there's a village where everyone is the village idiot.

To me it was the unwritten messages sent from above and the vast dichotomy between them and the public "promotion" proclamations that were really the worst. To really promote body, soul, spirit is to promote a full and rich life, in which you have time to develop your body and soul - like the hobbies we showed off in residence. You don't have your whole week with every spare minute sucked up by meaningless rote meetings where people regurgitate already boring STS teachings and Way mag articles. You have time to exercise, to prepare healthy food to eat, to have hobbies in the community and the friends that surround them. TWI may have promoted body, soul, spirit with their mouth, but their actions were opposite. Same with marriages. I would have to say I've seen more marriages broken up by TWI clergy than held together or saved. It's always a commitment to TWI thing, coupled with suspicion and accusations towards whichever in the couple would share less with the leader. Like a prisoner of war scenario with rewards for snitching on other prisoners. In fact, that was the case in general, not just marriages. Individual family? Yeah, right. You don't have time to go to your kids sports games, you have to be at a Branch meeting on Saturday, otherwise where's your commitment? The more responsibility you have in leadership, the more meetings are added. And those meetings are just a forum for some egotist to put their stamp on things. In fact, the higher the level of the meeting, the more really wacky $h1t I've heard in that type of meeting. God I would hate to be around the BOD and their paranoia laced little side comments. I've never met a more sin conscious group of people than TWI leadership. And they are the ones who should be strongest in grace. Education? With no student loans? And college prices rising exponentially year after year? NO, you don't promote education. Do you even have a college scholarship fund like ANY of the community orgs around? No. How do people on Staff's kids do it? They staff parents go on welfare so that the kids can get Pell Grants and go for free (well, not really free - my tax dollars pay for that cr@p). TWI pays staff people less than the poverty level so that their kids qualify. That org realistically would be labeled the least supportive of education possible by an independant evaluator. Health? No time to exercise, all your exercise time is spent making up reports about your weekly activities, which ironically includes mandated exercise. No money to buy healthier food. No time to prepare it. Cheap coffee, drinks with sugar and crappy processed snacks at all meetings and classes. Little sleep. High stress. The best choice I ever made for my health was leaving TWI. MOG Rules? Sickening. Disgusting. Just like Jesus wrote about the Pharisees - they place heavy burdens on people they won't themselves lift with their little finger. Then they criticize the burdened down for being overwhelmed and not able to handle it, while they live a life of comfort, low morality, and decadence. Very sick. God will remember this and repay.

Undershepherding....designed with one goal in mind...to keep people (and yourself) in a hyped up state so the indoctrination process could become deeply rooted. Don't let them stray too far away from the herd. They'll start to consider things from a rational point of view and possibly move on with their life. Can't have that. Doesn't fare very well for the financial health of the organization.

They have my middle finger when driving by... :biglaugh:

Ya, had me convinced it was for a noble cause. At least for a little while anyways.

I'm sure TWI would be blessed to return all of your abundant sharing money if you would ask them. They would likely thank you for the opportunity to give. It is, after all, more blessed to give than to receive. /sarcasm off /

You have more kindness,forgivness and understanding in spiritual things than twi ever had or will.You have been a rock here at GSC.

A dear friend said that Holy Spirit showed him his life like a 100-year football game, and therefore (he is late 60's) he is still in the 3rd quarter and the 4th quarter is where most of the major plays are made. So it should be with us. I am 66, went deaf, lost my husband, went deaf, am pretty close to destitute but the 23+ years I spent in twi, although they were "prime" years are receding in their proportion of my life the longer I live. I don't know if I will have a 100-year life which my friend is expecting (He comes from a long-lived family), but my dad and his brother lived into their 90s and late 80's, respectively, and my mom's side had some good long lived people there as well, so I am thinking I still may have time for a touchdown or two. I know I am responsible for living the best I can in the moments I have right now, and that the weight of the sins of unforgiveness, bitterness, and regret are too heavy to bear. God has not forsaken me and I still have hope and trust God for His kindness and protection, His care and concern. I am so very very thankful that God got me out of twi. WIthout Greasespot Cafe (and WayDale and Transchat) even though I was kicked out of twi I still might be kicking myself for my spiritual weakness which caused me to be "marked and avoided"!!! But because of God's mercy and kindness and the work of all the kindhearted people who have shared their/your life stories, I have been able to keep growing with the Lord and in my life with the Holy Spirit, but it definitely requires leaving bitterness etc. behind.

At times I look back in horror, that I got out of college, and spent 10 years basically ignoring my own life in order to hustle for the way, and be at their beck and call 24/7. I wasn't even in the corps, yet felt obligated. When I finally left, I took stock, and realized I had no career, no family, no bank account, and a life sapping disease to boot. That was about 25 years ago. Since then I've married, dealt with, still dealing but doing ok with the disease, and managed to carve out a so called career in animation, mostly at Disney. None of it was easy, but in an odd cosmic twist sort of way, the decisions I made over the years in the way, landed me at the doorstep for me to change my life for the better. I have no idea what would have happened if I hadn't been in a cult, but somehow I've wound up exactly where I had dreamed of, in spite of losing years.

Great topic.....thanks! When I left TWI I had a part time job and I would come home to this rocking chair and rock and think about my life. I was devistated, completely. I felt like the best years were lost...the years where people developed their careers, had families. I was out WOW, Doing classes, running a fellowship. Before I went into TWI I wanted to be a music teacher. After TWI, I didn't get a degree, but I had opportunities to teach some lessons, even directed a choir for a period of time and played for a short time in a band. Two years ago I ended doing music totally just because I felt it was time to do that. I had always wanted to write a book since HS...and of course that never happened in TWI. Last summer, I wrote my first small novel and I have just continued to write. I have a mentor now, a university professor, and I am writing plays. Who Knew? Certainly not I. But, I'm loving this new area of interest. It's like a hobby for me. I only know that I had to let go of the past, let go of what might have been, and just reach for the future, even though I had no idea what the future was suppose to look like. We "get" each other. We know the wounds, the hurts and this is a great place for healing. We can talk about whatever we want to talk about, get support, love and acceptance. I wish you well in your journey of life.....it's worth it.

The only thing you can do about lost time is make up for it.

It took a couple years to sink in, but now I know full well I wasted the prime of my life with that little cult and now have little to show for it. Not that I am in bad shape, or worse for the wear. Since I can't have the time back, I am in full pursuit of all the things I want to do with my life. And many of those things are me/my family oriented, not ministry centric. I do regret sacrificing to much to the furtherance of a destructive cult. I am remorseful for promoting them and have come to grips with what I did. Though, I was deceived and thought I was promoting the things of God. I think that was one of the biggest blows. So in short, me and the family are living our lives to the fullest and pursuing happiness.

Some wonderful insight. Twi is not the only place people get sidetracked from the life they ultimately want to build. We're wiser for the experience regardless of regrets we might have about being hoodwinked. It is a fact that young adults don't often have much of an idea of what they want to make of their life. Experience, and hard times build patience and wisdom. On balance, can you move forward in the direction you want to go in life? If so, that's a lot to be thankful for. :)

Abi's statement regarding "speaking in tongues" included a caveat. "basically harmless as long as it isn't interfering with your ability to function in life." For some people, it DID interfere with their ability to function in life. People used "speaking in tongues" to try to solve all sorts of real-life problems that needed realistic intervention. Things like cancer, depression, poverty, homelessness, personal safety and more. It went hand in hand with the "law of believing". And there is hard core scientific evidence that it suppresses one's ability to think critically, thus leaving one in a state of mental vulnerability. We used it in TWI to self delude ourselves into a misguided allegiance to a corrupt organization.

Churches are one option in recovering from twi abusive thinking, abusive doctrine, and abusive practices. Some churches are quite good in helping people learn to actually treat others as if you love them like yourself. There's one in my neighborhood that would be a great place to learn substance over style. Do I agree with their doctrine? No. Can I work alongside the Christians there? Yes-and I have.

Yeah, very interesting I must say.... Never expected Jackie to write a book.. I didn't know them when they first became Coordinators. But later in their term, they definitely had changed from being the sweet and innocent, to being the promoters of quite a bit of what the top leaders do.. Although when I was in-residence, it was kind of unique one time Ed Ho... gathered us all together and actually came right and told how he didn't agree with what HQ qas doing on a couple specific points, that he tried to change things, it didn't work out, so he was just going with the flow. But, he wanted us to know that his example is what we all should do, even if we didn't agree.. Umm.. Yeah.. You can tell I didn't take his advice. And I don't think it would be too appropriate on this thread to go into LCM's and Jackie's relationship.. But, needless to say, there was more to his speaking about her than just because... They were probably wonderful believers at first, but corrupt communications can corrupt people. Especially when you get higher up in the ranks.. It really effected them both. But somehow Rosalie caught onto Ed's problems, and moved him out to HQ working in Research. As if he would help.. He taught the Corps Greek, but doesn't know the basics of the language himself. He just recites what he reads, and half of that time he doesn't comprehend it, so then when he tries to expound it completely @#&%^@#.. But now, they got demoted again, this time Branch coordinators but at least still full time. So yeah, writing books while full time.. I think they are rethinking their direction right about now, Wouldn't suprise me to see them gone in another 2 -3 years. But I could be wrong. Ed had lots of disagreements - and rightfully so. The goodness of God always leads us to repentance and a change of heart.. Never too late to see em realize the truth and stick to it!

My memories of the Horneys are varied... Jacque was fun and outrageous our first year in-rez, Ed was stiff as a board but you could tell he really felt priviledged to be a corps coordinator and was trying to teach/train us well. They told funny stories on themselves, and threw spontaneous parties for us... oh, and they taught us the Bullwinkle cheer. I liked and respected them. However, by our second in-rez year, well, you could tell the pressure of being RIGHT all the time was getting to them... a lot of the sponteneity and the smiles were gone. There was an edge to them I hadn't seen before. Reminds me VERY much of the process I saw Rico Magnelli and his wife go through. There is only so much time you can put in as top leadership before you change. I posted something I ran across about Jacque being on a writing forum some time ago because I thought they were still at HQ and I was surprised she was being allowed to do "real" work. At this point, I'm happy for anyone who finds any kind of success outside the realm of twi... maybe, just maybe, it will help them see their way out of the cult.

boy am I glad I got out before that came down (or up) the tree. I don't need another required book purchase.

If there is - I think using her real name would be appropriate.