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In any legal sense, there is no corporate connection between twi and sowers whatsoever. They are organized by different people, and their paperwork reflects a complete distinction between the 2 groups. In the doctrinal sense, both sowers and their parent splinter group are an attempt by ex-twi'ers to clone the earlier twi days, based word-for-word on the earlier setup of twi, using the exact phraseology vpw did, in an attempt to relive their glory days. It can't possibly work because the twi numbers explosion was based ENTIRELY on vpw taking a legitimate movement in Christianity, subverting it, and turning an already-successful group of people into his recruiting arm. THEY did all the work. THEY convinced the people of the substance. And THEY had no way to know all the plagiarism and corruption behind the scenes- and neither did the people. Compare that to now. There's no group of young Christians ALREADY producing the big results that vpw wanted, there for sowers to subvert. The public can easily find out about all the corruption even if there WAS. And vpw KNEW he was a fraud and tailored his fraud accordingly. The sowers people still insist ALL of it was legitimate and of God- so they can't even get the successful CON going. But they've certainly ignored all the differences between THEN and NOW, and tried to make NOW look like THEN. They even convinced a guy named vpw- the grandson of the original plagiarizing rapist- to be the frontman of the organization. So, legally, this is not any twi. In a practical sense, it is a sad attempt to replicate twi from its early days-which is why it's of interest to a handful of people and will remain a handful of people until it fades into obscurity. It's of interest only to ex-twi. And ex-twi are getting fewer in numbers because there's nobody new joining twi in any numbers, and that means the population of both current twi and ex-twi are all dying off as they get older and are not numerically replaced by successors. This is a good thing. Ex-twi get on with their lives, mostly, and don't turn their families into twi clones. And those who do are in such small numbers that they are only slowing down the process of twi becoming completely irrelevant as opposed to almost-completely irrelevant.

That's called confirmation bias. We all do it to one degree or another.

Ok I think I gotcha. Wierwille was playing on already generated fear. He was not big enough make it himself. But he could twist the current structure of the day. Hilter, for example, did the same thing. He didn't invent fear or hate of the Jews. It was already there in the culture.

Here’s a funny excerpt from Sowers WOWs "…Think for a moment, about losing your ability to breathe. A human being cut off from taking a breath will snap into a frenzied instinct and fight for oxygen. So should our ministry to reconcile God’s children back to him. What destroys a person’s ability to breath? Disease and asphyxiation… …To digress back to the analogy of asphyxiation – while it might seem very evident to a person that they were being choked, keep this in mind: The strongest man could be suffocated at the hands of the most feeble child if the man were so terrified, or so convinced, that his ability to escape the situation was impossible. The Adversary is so far beneath your feet, don’t forget it…" == == == == The 2nd paragraph seems contradictory to the 1st paragraph. I agree with the 1st idea – a person will instinctively fight for air and fight to break free….if…say, an attacker was trying to strangle them – But I don’t follow their rationale of the strongest man being suffocated by the feeblest child because he is terrified of the situation – that there is no way out. So...self-preservation - one of our strongest - if not THE strongest of natural instincts is trumped by fear ?!?! ....Absurd ! What hypothetical nonsense ! Ya know…to psyche out people by fear must run in the wierwille bloodline…what a pathetic bunch of losers.

I am pleased to say that a few years ago, I managed to dissuade a young man from going to join this group. Don't think he particularly believed me about the "parent program." Thought Sowers would be all nicey-nicey. But it lodged the concerns in his mind. I prayed about it too and have a recollection that he couldn't get a visa, or some such. And th young man got a job in a small nearby town and moved away to there.

Other than Undertow, Yuval Noah Harari's book Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind, provided tremendous insight on how our species (homo sapiens) goes about concocting elaborate fictions upon which to base our lives and cultures. In MANY ways, Wierwille's fiction is just like Hubbard's. Like Charlene said, " the "accuracy of The Word," is a mirage..."

Questions about the identity of Jesus Christ are almost as old as Christianity itself. The gospels and epistles are, at least in part, a rebuttal to early claims about exactly who Jesus was, both before and after his resurrection. He's the Son of God. Why? In Mark it's at his baptism. In Luke and Matthew it's by virtue of him not having an earthly father. In John it's a relationship that predates his birth. All answers are Biblically defensible. The inescapable conclusion from the gospels: he is the Son of God. But John is the only gospel that explicitly appears to make the case that he is actually God as well (although John would probably be denounced as a heretic for claiming that the Father is in any way greater than the Son). The Trinity as a doctrine developed over time. That Christ was a being who existed prior to his earthly life can reasonably be deduced from the writings of Paul. We in TWI made the mistake of thinking there was something Biblically unreasonable about a doctrine like "the incarnation," as though there were no Biblical support for it. To the contrary, the Biblical support is strong and must be addressed for a Socinian model (his existence began at conception/birth, just like ours) to hold water. It should be noted that the biggest controversy around the time of Nicea was whether Jesus pre-existed as God or as an angel. That he was "just a man" was not even a finalist. You could (and we did) make a Biblical case that because he is not God (John 14:28) and he was not an angel (Hebrews 1), then he must have been a man, although an extraordinary one. But the case for Jesus as God is far from non-existent. And the case for Jesus as a pre-existing angel is perhaps even stronger (that's the Jehovah's Witness position). For what it's worth, I find it interesting that after he became an agnostic, Bart Ehrman (very recently) began subscribing to the belief that the earliest Christians were Arian (that is, they believed Jesus to be an angel prior to his birth, "the firstborn of all creation" in a very literal sense. My personal belief is that you can't get to one answer because there isn't one answer at the core of the argument. Finding out what the Bible says about who Jesus really was is complicated, perhaps irreparably, by the fact that the Bible's writers don't seem to agree with each other on the subject.

I was in a rush to get married - had to beat my 30th birthday. I did - by 3 months to someone I really did not know. We have made a life but I might as well have stayed single since that is what this marriage is - and it sucks. He believes a wife was put here on earth to submit and serve and to my eternal shame that's what I did for quite some time. Until I finally grew up, left waybrain behind and started standing up for myself. The Way left people woefully unprepared for anything but living the Way life. Thank God VP died and woke up people like me.

Devil spirits!! Yeah, if only they'd had the greatest class the world has ever known since rocks were invented, they would have exercised the revelation manifestations and averted the whole scenario. "I cannot imagine that someone displaying this behavior around believers and true friends would have gone unconfronted. Not to mention being delivered as he sat in a teaching or sharing of God's Word by someone being energized by God's spirit." Hmmm.... I guess he's forgotten that 1,000's of piffle grads sat through the advanced class, listening to the ramblings of a man who, by his own definition, must have been RIDDLED with those pesky, little rascals. Do I really need to cite the advanced class silly-bus on this? (pages 20 & 21, if you're interested.) So, if this stuff is real, how come nobody got "revelation" about Wierdwilly? .............................................. I love this part, too: "He dropped out of medical school a month ago. Hello! These things telegraph that something very unusual and probably important, not to mention, devilish, is going on to anyone who cares about this man." Yep, any time someone drops out of medical school, it's an obvious sign something spiritual is going on..... Hello! Med school is a tough row to hoe...boogie man or no boogie man. ................................................ "I listen to Bill O'Riley on Fox regularly." Oh, OK, now I think I see the problem.

"Neither God nor the adversary works in mysterious ways." Really? So you know as much as God? And a convenient way to make yourself feel safe - after all, YOU would have known. The shooter couldn't have gotten you. You are special. No sympathy for the lives cut unnecessarily short. No sympathy for the families. After all, those people are less than God's REAL believers in The Way. And if a "believer" had been one of the victims, they would have been deserving of being shot, because God would have told them, right? F**king a$$#oles. They are less than human.

Ya, I agree with him on that one.

That's where he should have stopped, in my opinion.

PIFFLE "Promotes harmony in the home" Actually that is true! :o Dat's Riight! BUT,... it must be understood within the chapters and verses,.. and the contexts floating around in the ol' crocs... er, ol' docs noggin. To him, perfect harmony was Mrs. W at home, and him getting his lusts met anyway he could do it elsewhere. Perfect harmony. Another example for those who need further explanation: Craig likes girls... Donna likes girls... So she shouldn't mind that he finds it elsewhere. Perfect harmony. <_<

The best thing any couple can do for a marriage is to remove TWI from it. They don't belong there anyway.

I'm looking for a few good prospects. Do you know anyone that is willing to throw everything in their lives away, willing to get up and leave their families, willing to have everything that they have taken away from them, are willing to leave their friends behind, and give it all away, leave everything behind?, so that you they can hear the truth that hasn't been heard since the 1st century that.............................Then, come join us. Well teach you.

One of my best ham friends seemed to have chosen to not have children. Yes, he was married. I never had a good solid concrete reason to ask him why, or why not.. couldn't have he.. shouldn't have he.. It was pretty much his business I suppose. He was married over forty years. he "adopted" a lot of people though..

Marriage isn't for everyone nor is child rearing. I know people who have chosen to remain single and are perfectly happy with their choice. Likewise, I know couples who have elected to never have children and have no regrets. The problem with marriages in The Way was that you were expected to function as some sort of sales/tag team, with promotion of PFAL at the heart of your relationship.

Some screw-ups I didn't need twi's help with. I was already divorced before I ever heard of them. When the twi sh|t hit the twi fan, I was really thankful to be single. It was hard/confusing enough to walk away without having to deal with a spouse who might have wanted to stay "in." I give a lot of credit to those couples who managed to keep it together, especially those who disagreed on "should I stay or should I go." (Now I can't get those song lyrics out of my head. Damn.)

Belated Happy Birthday Excie! May you have many more and may they be happier each year, full of love and goodness!!! Marriage...never have been married. When I was in my early 20's wanted to get married and have 12 children.....LOL Got in TWI when I was 25 and was in it for the next 13 years. During that time, the only things I thought about was bible, classes, fellowships..... After getting out, I had too much stuff of my own that I had to sort out, get help with, just recover my life. By the time that I was starting to feel good about God, my life, and others....I find that I am at an age that I will probably never get married. I grieved that for awhile, but then accepted where I was at in life, and how God had brought me to that point of being reasonably happy. I think Marriage can be a beautiful thing. But I also know that being single can be a beautiful thing too. I'm content and I try to live each day with some peace and joy. I like my life today!

The idea of "any two believers....." was just another gimmick of the Vicster. It was intended to keep people from leaving the confines of Wayville to seek out life beyond the walls.

I am in one of those "any two believers" marriage. Twenty five years of shared goals and seven kiiddoes later, yeah we are still together. maybe any two believers CAN make iti work, but it sure is mighty lonely without genuine attraction. it seems like a real waste to spend an entire life time eith someone who barely tolerates your presence because you are traveling in the same direction :( I think it was a really REALLY bad idea.

L-O-S-E-R If marriage is instituted by God and defined by the Word then "what God has joined together, let no one seperate" means that the commitment is not based upon some dumb-@$$ organization.

The big difference between an arranged marriage, such as in some eastern cultures, and the type of thing TWI promoted, is that The Way marriages were intended to be a vehicle for promoting the organization. My first marriage was of this variety. In our required premarital counseling with one of The Way's ordained ministers, it was made very clear that our first obligation was to function as partners in promoting the organization. If one of the pair deviates in commitment to that goal, it spells disaster for the marriage. In essence, it's a marriage to TWI, not a marriage to each other.