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That's impossible waysider! NOTHING captain robson "shares" is anything but his own brilliant insights based on that huge dose of pneuma hagion he was endowed with after he saw the snow in his cockpit. It's all his own, remember? He hates veepee, and refuses to even talk about him, remember? Kinda like veepee and B.G. Leonard. Captain wrongWay Peachfuzz never learned anything from J.E. Stiles, or B.G., or Ethelbert. Nope! It was ALL dictor paul. How dare you accuse the captain of just vomiting out old DPW plagiarisms, delusions, and drunken Nazi rants. Look at all the scholastic, and textual evidence he has so far provided? Look at all the questions he refuses to answer? Not because he doesn't know all the answers like dictor Paul his personal revelator, but because YOU are too dumb, resistant to truth, cravenly UN-spurchal, prideful, lazy, and far too intellectually and spiritually lazy to receive the pearls of the incredible wisdom and wit wrapped in the beautiful package of manure that captain wierwille presents. I love the smell of bull manure in the evening! It smells like Victor-y! LMAO! Fly on captain!

When wierwille looked in the mirror.........I believe that, at times, he saw the utter depravity of his morality and integrity. Sure, he vaunted his position with that narcissistic personality disorder that consumed his soul and robbed him of empathy for others. Wierwille scouted out ever advantage he could find, because his basic nature was one that was lazy and academically challenged........thus, he tweaked, plagiarized and glued a degree-mill doctorate to his name. Yet, in the end.......many continued to see thru the ruse and so did the man in the mirror. Several posters have come forward to give us a "history lesson" of how wierwille power-grabbed The Way West and Way East from Hefner and Doop......one wherein wierwille and dell dunkin (??) walked into a big meeting and wierwille took "ownership" and kicked Hefner to the curb. Wierwille knew the road to power was TO CENTRALIZE the allegiance and money-funneling to one destination, the Ohio-hq. And, when was this.......1970 or 1971.....?? Soon thereafter, "the way tree" terminology took root (no pun intended)..........and the counterfeit-clusterflock became a full-fledged cult. Confrontation seemed to be the m.o. for training the corps: The 6th corps at Emporia were all dismissed at one point. Smoking issues.....?? 7th corps had lots of business savvy leaders who needed to submit.........needed tethered to the cult. 8th corps fiasco with three guys doing dynamic, independent research......major, lingering confrontation. Cop-out terminology went hand-in-hand with devil-spirit possession. Only if you are possessed would you LEAVE the way ministry.......... Once wierwille went down THIS PATH.......there was no turning back. The doctrine came from the "man-of-gawd." I have posted several times of personal accounts that I saw in 1978. Wierwille could, nor would, NOT allow a major corps leader to just walk away WITHOUT SLANDER. That person's name and reputation had to be soiled to stifle questioning and/or dissent. It WAS character-assassination......straight-up! Wierwille was a thug.

The bait was VPW's perceived special knowledge of Scripture. ..."as it hasn't been known since the first century."

You're wrong on that, Grace. There are still too many who are still in thrall to TWI and are slaving away at HQ and other locations. We can only pray that one day they will come to their senses and see the servitude for what it is.

the "manifestation of the Spirit is given". It is a gift! or it wouldn't say given. Dude you're still brainwashed.

Ham, one of the reasons I like living by myself, is because it's quiet, and calm. I grew up in a family where people screamed all the time, and I hated it. Nowadays, my home is calm, and peaceful.

yup - so true for a lot of us.....it's funny because before I got in the way ministry, I had the typical Roman Catholic boy frame of mind - so thinking about who I was going to spend the rest of life with involved thoughts of just one other person besides myself – my future wife…I never intended to marry an entire cult....geeez Louise - having to remember that many more birthdays and anniversaries - it's mind-boggling !

Grace, your post made me laugh – because a long long time ago when I was in TWI, I would occasionally think about the future of my life and could not imagine a life apart from the ministry. Funny how it’s the opposite now – almost makes me shudder to imagine what if I never left…well, for one thing – we wouldn’t be having this conversation. Yeah and sometimes I think about folks that are still in TWI or an offshoot – for them maybe Grease Spot is like that door Rebecca Stott talked about – an opening in the wall erected by the cult… psssssttttt hey there folks still living in way-world, how’s your escape plan coming? Ssshhhhh – don’t say anything about it now! I’m just trying to be friendly. Be smart about it…top priority should be the safety and security of you and your family; you owe the way international nothing ! we’re here to help.

IN fellowship, OUT OF fellowship, standing state, potahhtoe, potatoe, tomahhto, tomato.....all matters of PRIVATE INTERPRETATION, just like dispensationalism. No textual or MSS evidence for either. If "a double-minded man is unstable in all his ways", why would an omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent Father present doublespeak information to make an already raging case of confused rebelliousness somehow better? Dictor paul's warped private interpretation of grace, mercy, forgiveness, sin, fellowship and the entirely invented concepts of "standing and state" has exactly WHAT basis in scripture, or in da woid??? Please advise. Another Grimm's Brothers fairy tale notwithstanding, I look forward to documented Biblical, textual, and/or MSS evidence to validate your false premises regarding your previous error-filled post, and bedeviled exegesis.

Your analogy gives the impression that we should be drug through life. Or at least, drag ourselves through life. It sounds depressing. Plus it begs the question on what exactly the "doctrine" is that we should have knowledge of. You mention order and chaos, that there's some sort of guarding system for the doctrine, but again, begging the question.

I think God has to be mystery or he/it/she is not a god. No God would not be bound. I think Waybrain is reductionist. It is reductionist because it is controlling. Because people are not gods they have to create a world in their mind that is oversimplified. All reasoning must be controlled in their Totalitarian System. Simple reasoning is easier to control. A forever on-going discussion, like, "What's The Trinity?", can't be controlled, can it? But I also suspect their non-trinatarian view helps in supporting other Way Doctrine.

Just curious. Is this you pulling your own trailer here? Or you cut and pasting someone else's words into GSC's "trailer" ???

Sometimes, though, because the origin of the discussion is a hypothetical question, all the stimulating thought and conversation translates more into something like a hamster wheel that goes round and round, but having no attachment to or traction with the ground, it never gets you anywhere.

Hey not to interrupt the trolling or anything, but I did want to post in this other link w/r to the doctrine of the Trinity. This thread linked has some higher level discussion from a member in theology school.

To clarify, this is the part of rrobs post I found humorous: " Like I said, in wit and doctrine, I have no equals here at gsc."

I loved "Undertow" and glad it's an e-book now - I am going to get that too...yeah, Tonto loaned our hard copy to a friend who was in the corps....maybe I'm just like Thomas Jefferson in that "I cannot live without books" - - saw that laminated in a bookmarker at Library of Congress gift shop - and had to get it....one of these days I'll master speed-reading - - got a lot of catching up to do

Hi Chockfull, Just a note to offer one major correction about publishing my book Undertow. On my website I have written about how, after rejections from publishing houses (every author knows this process takes a long time) I created New Wings Press, LLC and "self-published" the book. I hired professionals to edit and design it. I gathered promotional blurbs from experts, other former Way followers, and authors in the field. The print-on-demand company I used is IngramSpark. They have dependable distribution channels around the world. So, in essence, I did what a regular publishing company does, but paid for it myself. And now it is up to me to also do the marketing. Thanks for the mention here. I hope Undertow reaches many former Way folks. It is now available in e-book, too. That cost me a bundle for Ingram to make, but every penny spent on this project was worth it the moment I got the first of many emails telling me it helped that person heal. My intention was exactly that ... for it to heal and inform. I describe this process on my website, http://charleneedge.com Cheers, Penworks a.k.a. Charlene Edge

A) I Samuel 1 covers Samuel, not David (who may not have been born yet.) B) God warned Israel at length that having a king was an awful idea for them, before acquiescing to THEIR insistence that THEY wanted a king. (All of I Samuel 8.) The first king was Saul, the second was David. Both seemed ok to some people's views, but both were disastrous for Israel, each in his own way. C) "things wouldn't be going very well for him and Israel from now on." That's remarkably understated. "But David immediately repented and so God completely forgave him". Actually, God promised David's punishment would be PUBLIC (II Samuel 12:12), that strife would never depart from David's house (II Sam 12:10). and that he'd lose from his house (II Sam 12:11), and that his future son FROM this sin would die (II Samuel 12:14.) You make it sound like God blew off David's punishments. David wasn't killed for it, but he suffered the losses he earned. D) David repented, and is mentioned in Hebrews 11. Then again, Gideon's also mentioned in Hebrews 11, and he's hardly the poster-boy for bravery. E) The top leader of all Israel had sex with another man's wife-and the power dynamics in play make this coercive by virtue of him being able to have her killed or everyone she cares about killed if he feels like it, so she MUST comply. David attempts to cover it up by arranging to have an innocent man murdered and made to look like an accident (the fortunes of war, but he was set up to be the only man behind enemy lines and thus certain to die.) David was unrepentant UNTIL Nathan confronted him directly with what he had done, and God's Judgement upon him for it. THEN David repented (he'd been caught and was going to be punished.) That's no better than any little kid who's not sorry UNTIL HE'S CAUGHT. THEN he's "repentant." David served his full sentence, and repented. THEN God forgave David-but David still had to live out his well-earned punishment first (as much as could happen "first",anyway- the sword never left his family during his lifetime.) F) Present-day Christendom is not a political entity like Israel, nor a country like Israel. Furthermore, it's not a country ruled by God Almighty. So, this really doesn't seem to go anywhere close to a reasonable comparison.

Sorry I didn't respond immediately to your 2nd pm, but occasionally life interferes with my internet posting, and it did so again. This question was answered a long time ago. The oddest part is WHO spilled the beans on this one originally. That was CHR1S G33R of all people. Mr "I'm enshrining wierwille's stuff" himself had to address this because he came across it, and it was too blatant to leave alone. That was back in the early 1990s, with a 2-tape set on the subject (I used to joke that it was one tape per kingdom.) However, the subject really didn't take long to cover. Bullinger came up with it, and it was one of the incidents (there were others) where Bullinger came up with something and decided that was true without tying it to the Biblical usages. vpw, naturally, plagiarized him without checking out whether or not it was so (vpw was a LAZY plagiarist and often didn't understand what he plagiarized.) However, there's few Biblical usages of EITHER phrase, and they're used in parallel verses to make IDENTICAL points in the SYNOPTIC Gospels. There is no BIBLICAL justification for saying they're 2 different things. The only justification is "if God meant one thing he would have used one word, not two", but this isn't the only example where there's 2 words or phrases that mean the same thing. Language is NOT mathematically exact-which means communication CANNOT be mathematically exact. There's a beauty and a poetry in a living language that would evade a cold, calculated language. I'll expound on the subject as soon as I have a reasonable amount of time, but really, it just takes the reading of the verses side-by-side and a willingness to let their overt meaning be the conclusion. In the meantime, someone linked to a discussion where it was already explained. Everyone except the vpw fanatics on that thread was able to follow without difficulty.

You forgot about humor. You're way up there in humor, too. Hahahahahahahaha!

LOL waysider! Weekend At Bernie's prequel!

In the U.S., his fate (for his actions, not his beliefs) would be decided by society and governing entities, not.Christendom. If Christendom became part of the decision making process deciding David's fate, it would mean we have entered a Theocracy. The Constitution warned against this. It would be in conflict with the first amendment. In 1802, Jefferson wrote this in his Letter to the Danbury Baptists: 'Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof", thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.'] It was emphasized in The Treaty of Tripoli, Article #11, which, though discussing a specific scenario, set the tone of future dealings. (1796) "Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen (Muslims); and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan (Mohammedan) nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries. On this basis, I propose the aforementioned question raises a moot point. Dave's not here.

"Dave's not here, man."

Life in prison without parole.

My OPINION is that-if it refers to us as well as the people he spoke to at the time- then it refers to having the pleasure of leading people into "The New Birth." Before Jesus ascended, people could do lots of supernatural things, but not that. Also, I think twi fetishized speaking in tongues and added so many things to their practice that it didn't resemble actual speaking in tongues.

I think we have put too much mind into these spiritual things. I mean we were arguing that there is a difference between spiritual gifts and manifestations. I think the manifestations are spiritual gifts. To receive these spiritual gifts maybe we need to clean our act up and get close to the Lord. I think it's more than just "believing" for them. If one is a bad representative is God going to bestow spiritual power to that person? I saw very few genuine spiritual happenings while involved with TWI, although there were a few. I think it's not just a problem with TWI followers(and ex followers) but Christians in general especially in the USA and Europe. One of the biggest problems is the fact we've become too materialistic which in our culture is very hard to avoid. Perhaps we've been blocking the reception of these spiritual gifts. I no longer buy into the prosperity gospel. Not that God wants us to live in poverty but we are so focused on making gobs of money that we may be getting close to the realm of idolatry. I'm speaking in general terms and I'm not pointing fingers because I'm in this boat as well.

So this refers back to your original post. Which I had the courtesy to attempt an answer before, which you didn't seem to respond kindly to. Yes. Get the doctrine straight. That includes knowing all of the Bible, all the parts which for convenience only are referred to as OT, Gospels, and NT. Do not cherry pick verses. Do not twist them to make them read as you'd prefer them to. Do not ignore verses that you don't like. "Do" what you know to do: and understanding of the bigger picture will continue to grow. Personally, I don't "look at what God has already made [me]" I look at Him, and who (I perceive) He is. I look at Jesus, and who (I perceive) he is. I accept that I am deeply loved, chosen, and cared for. Because I am loved and cared for, I cannot but respond by being loving and caring back towards He who cares for me. I see that I am to be loving and kind towards others: so I am, as best I can be. I look at fellow Christians, to see how they devote their lives to service of the Lord. I can learn from them, too. If I spent my time looking at me, I'd be so aware of my flaws that I'd fail to do anything. Yet I know that others look at me, to see how I serve. So I try to present a good model for them, too. And acknowledge when I stuff up.

Thanks, I'm doing fine as I am without pondering "standing" and "state." You don't know what I study. You don't know what I have studied in the past. I can tell you what I don't study (have a guess, the initials PFAL might give you a clue). And you really don't know how my life has changed, post-TWI. (Nor, for that matter, do you know how badly it changed as a result of being "in.") Are you using the word "you" aimed at me specifically? Or would the word "one" express a more general point? Your post is quite hard to read. You might not think of it as jargon, but you express things in such a TWI-type of style, phraseology, that it comes across as Waybrained. Probably three or four Wayish expressions in every line. It can be helpful both for the speaker (or writer) and for the hearers (or readers), to find a different turn of phrase to express the same thing. Go on, challenge yourself!

I see four paragraphs of long-winded awful analogy to simply say "mind over matter" in an extreme sense. Complete with encouraging self-doubt. A fifth paragraph with no citations to back up wild claims. A sixth paragraph stating a cure to a problem that hasn't been properly demonstrated to exist.

IMO they are sold a load of cr@p0la about being "the true remnant". This is why they tolerate the decline of the ministry and the lack of numbers. All it takes is one little old bespectacled white hair making some comments along those lines down her nose, and they are brainwashed again. I bought into that for a while. The few, the proud, those that have maintained their commitment, etc., etc. What freed me from it? God. I used to believe all the party line they back up from the OT - you know, the "pay your vows" verses, and the "they have sworn and they will perform" from some military battle speech in the OT. Then I actually read the teachings of Jesus where he instituted a new teaching in grace, where instead of vowing all these vows, just say what you mean. Thus I was free to develop the opinion of "NO", and free to say it freely. Then I started taking back my life, and God started restoring the years the locust had eaten. I don't think another person or church was involved in that process. Just me and God. He let me know through my prayer life and study that I didn't have to be beholden to Pharisees due to some stupid vow. There's a higher law now, brought in by the teachings of Jesus Christ. It's just as revitalizing as being saved by grace not by works. Sorry for all the verse paraphrasing, but since this isn't the doctrinal forum, I kind of feel like if I included all those it would seem like a teaching. And I ain't teaching, just telling a story of my life.

Kids songs are fine......for kids.