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"I find it interesting that everybody here attacks me personally. Nobody address the things I say about the word. You keep wanting to make it about VP. Nobody here really knows my thinking on VP or the twi because I've said next to nothing about either. Go back and look. My interest is in the word. I started this post by saying I don't care how I got the word, VP, Stiles, Buillinger, or whatever or whoever doesn't matter. I'm pro word and seldom think about VP, twi, or any splinter group. I'm involved with NO group whatsoever. I've not been to one fellowship with the Way or any splinter group. My thoughts are my own. True, some line up with what VP says, but that doesn't mean VP channels through me when I speak." "Okay Rich. So what's the Julian Bible Institute that your e-mail address blabs about?? Not a group???? YOU LIE! Typical of brainwashed personality cultists. Congratulations! You have proven yourself once again! LMAO!" YO! Rich! You never answered my question until you posted what I quoted at the opening of this post. EVERY ONE OF THOSE WHO HAVE RESPONDED TO YOUR ORIGINAL POST AND THOSE FOLLOWING, HAVE KNOWN THIS SINCE THAT FIRST POST. LOL! And you have the idiocy to repeatedly tell us we're busy "attack(ing) you personally" because YOU love da woid, you live da woid, and you do da woid "all 9 all the time". YOU are "pro-woid". LMAO! Your qualifications?? A first time, one-cult intro to Moses David's version of Cheezus which caused you to double over in terrible pain but created a new life for you immediately from that point on. "Saved, reborn, converted whatchya call it now". Wonderful! Then a second-cult wonder, Dictor Paul Wierwille, taught you that da woid was above every thing! Even God's name and that PIA "absent Christ"! He plagiarized Bullinger, Leonard, and Stiles (among numerous others) VERBATIM and told you it was his greatness and "in-depth spiritual perception and awareness" that put them all together so da woid "fit like a hand in a glove!", and gave him all the revelation daily, necessary to keep on "putting it all together", to "bless mah peep-ull". LOL! Then, he plagiarized Bullinger's "How To Enjoy The Bible" which YOU still use as if it too was "God-breathed". And then, he plagiarized J.E. Stiles and "led you into tongues" so you'd "know that you know that you know that you're going to heaven and all hell can't stop you!" Then, because of your own "in-depth spiritual perception and awareness, YOU were able to see through all the "bullshit sins of Vic's 'dead flesh', and "wind up" right back with COG in THEIR living room doing whatever the hell it is they do. Hope you enjoyed the sex. LOL! Now, 31 years after you returned to COG from TWIt, you show up here as if you are some great new "nothing-but-the-rightly-divided word teacher" that is in the position to tell the whole world how much YOU know about the Bible that you never learned from dictor paul or from attending ANY TWIt or offshoot "fellowship" since 1986. Great credentials for the Julian Bible Institute to base itself on. A two-cult bible education. LOL! NOBODY "attacks you personally" here. That's a bullshit "playing-the-victim" card you try to pawn off as if we who have been here for 17 years plus WayDale, have never seen this stoopeed dog and pony show before here at the GSC. You envy the GSC. That's why you troll here. There are thousands of members here with almost a million posts. YOU'D love for the Julian Bible Institute to have a following like that wouldn't you?? Oh no! Because ALL YOU care about is "da woid". All you think about is "da woid". All you wanna talk about is "da woid". Why? Because that's YOUR OWN LITTLE SAFE SPACE. YOU can say whatever you want. You can believe whatever you want. You can judge whomever you choose to. You can lecture and condemn all those who disagree with your regurgitated horseshit. You can again be "captain of ambassador one" and take your woid over da woild! LOL! You can't handle life outside your false Bible bubble. You're a pimp Rich! You serve no Jesus Christ, the Son of God. You never knew Him! You knew Moses David and dictor paul wierwille, and their versions of a Jesus who did not, never did, and does not exist in their interpretations of "da woid". He exists only in the self-contained cult theologies of churchianity and personality, but nowhere in the Bible. When you get to your non-existent "bema" you won't get rewards or gold medals as an "athlete of the Spirit", but you'll be hearing "I never knew you" many times before "they let you in"! Rich, if you really want to "Minister da woid" to the thousands of well-educated Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Jews , atheists, agnostics, and good old regular human beings here at the GSC, I suggest you dismount your self-righteous, self-serving cult-speak, high horse, get real, realize YOU don't know the Bible like it hasn't been known since the first century, or that you're some prophet in the wilderness of sin yelling at every one who disagrees with your personally twisted interpretations of The Bible, and get HONEST! Admit you're trolling for New Julian Bible Institute sycophants YOU can teach da woid to, and get tithes from. Good night, gawd bless, you're the best!!

OOPS!

"Truth is most Christians I talk to think I'm a wolf in sheep's clothing". That statement alone rrobs ought to cause you to take stock in what you're communicating. Haven't you seen so far that you're in the extreme minority here regarding veepee and his putrid "theology"? He was a liar, and a thief, and a coward, and a serial rapist, and anti-Christ. An uncovicted felon who misappropriated our money. WHY would anyone want to continue any sort of association with his dead ministry? Why?

Robs, I think you should STFU.

Rich Robson is, here at GSC, a disingenuous interloper, denying the truth about his motives and agenda. He denies that he's a sycophant of Wierwille, but his website is a clone of what he learned from TWI. He's a jackal.

Wow wee – after a certain someone saying in so many different ways “let’s not bring up wierwille…leave wierwille out of this discussion… I’m just interested in the Word” on this and other threads…and then… Toto pulls back the curtain…again…after someone had reactivated The Great Oz mobile and drove it onto Grease Spot property. (note: for this reimagined episode of The Wizard of Oz, the part of Toto is played by Grease Spotters)

Now and then I think it pays, as we recall the trees that made up TWI, to take a step back and look at the forest. TWI was a pattern of deception. It wasn't that there was something wrong. It wasn't even that there were a lot of things wrong. The whole enterprise was rotten to the core. Every good thing about it was a trap to draw you into its real reason to exist: to control you and leave you utterly dependent on them for as many facets of your life as possible. I'm lucky. I got out fast. For those of you who stayed a long time: I can't fathom the damage that was done. I'm impressed that you got out in one piece! It's like I said when the Actual Errors thread came to a merciful end: trying to mine our TWI experience to figure out what was good in it is like looking at the cheese in a mousetrap as a potential source of calcium. I'm not denying it's cheese. I'm not denying it has calcium. But I'm also not losing sight of who laid it out there and why.

Yeah.....the rational road was detoured by spiritual boulevard. :B)

So wait: a rational and honest train of thought is not pursued in part because no one around you is pursuing it, so you accept something you question in your gut that you might otherwise have challenged? Why, one might call it socially reinforced self-delusion. But Wierwille could never get away with that. Not without laying some groundwork first. Naaaaah.

In 1978, wierwille's tone of ownership of "his" corps came in the derisive term COP OUTS. Sitting in those corps meetings, I had the gut sense that wierwille's twi had a major, structural flaw. Why was vpw name-calling? Why can't corps grads leave twi if they so desire? Why the heavy-handedness? Yet, others sitting around me didn't seem perplexed.......what gives? Was I being too judgemental? Was I not seeing it clearly? There it was in PLAIN SIGHT......and yet, there was no mounting dissent. So......I shelved this "concern" for another day. Red flags were clearly flying in 1978. Why aren't the clergy seeing this? Are they just a group of yes-men? Questions, questions........and I was a lowly inrez corps guy. Who was I to 'nitpick' the great mog of the universe for his choice of terms. Or, does "cop out" indicate something far more sinister and devious? The hidden parts of twi are now in plain sight.

Ego defense. If a Wayfer learns something new, they might find they are wrong on a point, and therefore their system isn't perfect. They'll have to let go, and move on. Part of them will die in a way. Death is from The Adversary. So we can't have any of that.

Psst. Rob... you're the guy going the wrong way on the highway. We're here for you.

So was.......Judas.

Rob's, JC was a kind, and thoughtful man. I personally don't think you are at all like JC; I think JC would have ripped into you, and let you know that you are a hypocrite.

It's better. The deep hyperlinks still work but the front page is secured. That's enough to ensure it is a private use website - intended as such there is nothing wrong with copyrighted material. Actually as a private study website, you have a lot of good links and material, including research tools. And with a profession as a pilot, I can see why you would like to have a resource like that on a website. It is pretty ingenious and a little better to access than a Dropbox folder or something. Good work on getting a resource up there like that as a repository for pdf's. You do have pretty much all Way International related publications up there, or materials approved and used by the Way including EW Bullinger's material. In that, you are kind of a 1 person splinter group or splinter ministry. There is not a lot of other input from mainstream Christianity groups, authors, ministers. In that I find that research is myopic. I find the same limitations in one of the splinter group leaders who produced a NT translation / commentary. Because of the ongoing fruit of the Way ministry, which has been using people through 3 generations of Presidents and on to a 4th, if you trace that back with common logic, it is a combination of what they are teaching and what they are modeling. If that is your main source of scriptural guidance in Christianity, then it is severely flawed and limited. The rest of the body of Christ is discounted. True doctrine taught and modeled does not produce the kind of devastation in people's lives that long-term exposure to the Way does. If it is taught, but something else entirely is modeled, then it is hypocrisy. It is like engineering in the construction of airplanes. You can trust the math involved in the aerodynamics all day long, but if you are going to get in a flying machine to test it for the first time you want to make sure that bird has been off the ground before. And that doesn't mean that someone "lifted" airplane parts from 15 different functioning airplanes to piece a new one together with duct tape and baling wire. That new plane would have about as much of a chance of flying as well, as the Way ministry does of working.

List of People VPW does not affect: Donald Trump Subjects of the Sassanid Empire Zombies Most people in Zimbabwe Cats

Exactly what gave you the idea that I was referring to you? I’m not asking that to be coy or act innocent – because I was referring to you. As master of the obvious I would venture to say the reason for your vehement reply was due to the fact that I referred to other folks’ posts with links to your Julian Bible Institute site * packed with wierwille’s stuff AND to posts that YOU have made in which you tried to divert, side-step, ignore, defend, deny, change the subject or counterattack when anyone asks you about your glaringly obvious wierwille-influence. I would also like to say your vicious attack on my character leads me to believe any challenges to your “biblical” façade must really touch a nerve with you. That is sad…I do hope you stick around though – but do drop the pretense, loosen your grip on wierwille-dogmatics, and consider what folks are saying about life outside the mental prison built by wierwille. You say I have no idea who or what you are? Au contraire ! It’s quite obvious to me you are a two-faced liar....but there's hope! i do believe people can change. *note: interesting to see that when I go to Julian Bible Institute site now, I find this: Hello World. I can be found at GSC. link to Julian Bible Institute

EXPOSED!! Rich...........sounds like you made moves to stay ahead of twi's lawyers and copyright infringements.

We don't know who or what you are? Well, for starters, we know you're someone who came to this site and deceptively misrepresented yourself. How am I doing?

Yep.....according to your website, you sure do. Orange Book --- top pick of research tools Click on "PFAL" --- and read it word for word. Same with the other links on this list. The Way International is NOT going to like this one bit. Julian Bible Institute .

Holy CRAP! He even has pdf files of various TWI publications. I'm surprised he hasn't gotten cease and desist orders from the home office in New Knoxville yet.

Somehow, this was overlooked..

Little confused here.

[I appreciate you're honest that your approach IS PFAL. That's the biggest problem people are having here-primarily because that approach is limiting and has errors built into it based on taking vpw's word for all sorts of things. The result is that there's plenty of errors we all should have caught back when we were in twi but never actually looked at closely because we really thought vpw was a godly man whose godly approach to God gave him, personally, a clearer insight into things, and THAT, not plagiarism, is how we got all the twi teachings, pfal materials, and so on.[/b] Actually, vpw stole the first version of the pfal class ENTIRELY from BG Leonard. This is really old news in the ex-twi community. In fact, he considered those who had taken Leonard's class to be graduates of "his" class as well, without them needing to sit through the material all over again. Later, he added material from JE Stiles' book, and that became material of the last 4 sessions, as well as the major contents of "Receiving The Holy Spirit Today" (which was what the 1.0 class of pfal was called.) Later, he added Bulllinger and had material to fill out the middle 4 sessions, and split the class into "Foundational" and "Intermediate" (aka "the TIP class".) ] [The sad part is this: if you take the techniques you mentioned (and the others you referred to), and ruthlessly applied them to the materials you were taught, you'd have a rude awakening of how many things you were taught, and how they had NO CONNECTION WHATSOEVER with what the Bible says. The so-called "Law" of Believing ALONE is enough to make the point clear-the supposed 5 steps are never demonstrated in Scripture or anywhere else. ("Needs and wants Parallel" was explained with this imaginary woman who wanted red drapes. "She had a need, and the need was, she might as well have red drapes, that's what she wanted." That was so blatantly illogical that it remained in the taped classes, but the people who edited the books left it out because it made NO SENSE WHATSOEVER.) Another example is the "Standing vs State" thing, and there's others, of course.]

.......EXCEPT when they're not. "All nine all the time"......................wierwille "I just want to see the baby"..........wierwille "....the word is still the word"..........wierwille

That sure is an odd response! After all, you started this thread and you were the one who made a bunch of assertions. Were you expecting some kind of conditioned response? Like maybe when you were in a wierwille-friendly fellowship? Honestly, I asked you some serious questions – I was not trying to be argumentative. Hey, tell you what…let’s start over…and what say you work on dropping the way-speak…and instead of jumping to a ready-defense of something you’ve derived from wierwille – let’s truly have an open and honest discussion about it all. This way WE can ALL explore ideas TOGETHER…. …I’ve been coming to Grease Spot for a few years – and over time I can tell you of a truth that my beliefs and viewpoint have changed quite a bit – matter fact, though I am still a Christian there’s so much in my head that remains in a state of flux – and I’m ok with that…and once I got used to that, I’ve found a new freedom and comfort in being myself…better in tune with reality…and in general, not feel duty-bound to keep up a false front of that “know-that-you-know-that-you-know-that-you-know” thing. Love & peace…and carry on T-Bone

Well, it isn't necessarily good for using as a hammer to beat people up and telling them they are wrong...

Wow! It's like Lawrence Welk on quaaludes.

On this point, you and I are in disagreement. I never raped anyone or looted vast amounts of other men's work, claiming God had given them to me by revelation, claiming it was material that hadn't been known for 2,000 years. I, for one, see no need to continue sweeping VPW's dirty secrets under the carpet. Why worry about people's flesh? Well, I would think that a man of high caliber, such as yourself, would have remembered those sections of scripture that talk about a leader being beyond reproach or those sections that talk about how a man is known by his fruit. Oh, sure, we could go 'round and 'round about forgiveness and sonship rights and all that sort of thing. Personally, I think that would be an exercise in futility if it's tempered with rationalization and cognitive dissonance. Have a nice flight!

vpw had no experience whatsoever with leadership programs, whether in-residence or not. vpw had no experience whatsoever with the military, not even ROTC, Reserves, nor the National Guard. vpw claimed he wanted to base it on the US Marines. But vpw had no idea what the actual Marine experience was like. So, on what did he base his expectations? The movies. vpw had seen Marines be loyal and just follow orders. Whether or not that matched reality, that was what he wanted from his program- he wanted people who would jump off a cliff if ordered by him. Naturally, he never told any candidates that's what he wanted. He gave all sorts of stories about it, which never matched reality. He claimed it was based on something in Acts, but the entire experience was the opposite of the experiences of Acts. So, he was deceiving the candidates and lying to them. To him, that's fine because the candidates didn't matter- except when they were carrying out his orders.

Leave of absence/Dropped from active Corps (In other words, "tripped out")

Sky, if you tell the story of the microcosm well, people will understand that it stands for the macrocosm. No need to shove a moral down people's throats. :) Why were 190 clergy assigned to HQ? IMHO, because they should have been the most loyal to Wierwille, so he was hoping to have better control over his staff -- he wanted yes-men, not people with actual needs. (Which is why he shut down the Senior Corps.) If he'd played it right, he would have had minions to care for him and do his bidding in his old age even if he wasn't the board president anymore. Remember, narcissists tend to be lazy. What he didn't count on was that clergy actually thought of themselves as leaders, able to make decisions and get "revelation" on their own, from Craig on down. He also didn't realize that the top clergy didn't like him much. No surprise -- he was demanding, insulting, capricious, a drunk, and an adulterer. No wonder he went off to Gartmore when it became apparent that he couldn't control the mess at home, a mess of his own making.

You sound like someone who doesn't understand alcoholism and the devastating effects it has on the alcoholic and their families. No one ever claimed it as the be all, end all for anything. For the alcoholic who is serious about the program and live the 12 steps it's literally a life saver. And as for Craig, who did he ever help or save. He helped himself generously and couldn't save himself from Rozilla giving him the boot.

No...just an acute case of WTFs.

This so transparently exposes TWI as a leech of an organization. First, they don't want to reach people in genuine need or with obvious needs - that would actually require doing some work, getting the hands dirty, helping people who are down and out improve and put their lives back together. You know - real beneficial work that legitimate non-profit corporations are doing all the time. Second, they are after the devout. Why? No problems, steady work, more money. Where does the money go? To help the devout? No. It goes back to HQ's little fiefdom structure. And they keep a tight lid on the money. 75/25 was the budget breakdown I was familiar with. When the ABS in a state went below what would support having a Limb coord. be salaried, they have always asked them to work secularly, and keep the same workload. Third, they have zero infrastructure in communities. People meet in homes, usually in violation of local housing ordinances. There was even specific language that would be communicated from the Trunk office to use when neighbors complained about parking or gathering problems. We would always be encouraged to use free rooms for community meetings - in Branches - like libraries, community centers, fire stations, etc. So that we wouldn't have to pay to have larger meetings. Then after that care was taken to keep costs down on Limb level meetings, and approval would be denied for anything nice. If you look at this from a perspective of the real underlying reason is TWI wants to leech off society, collect money for doing as little as possible, and preserve their little fiefdoms.

I am in a 12 step program and have been for almost 18 years. I totally believe God brought me to the program, although at first, I was like, ok I must be here to help all these poor people! LOL Not too much ego huh? I found I was there for me because I was so screwed up. If you take a good long look at those steps you will see how they are principles that are biblical based. And I will tell you these people are some (not all) of the most honest people I have ever met. Working the steps is all about application and not doctrine. And it's not an easy program, but it's simple. It has changed my life for the better. For me, I found I had so much doctrine and was so confused about everything, I didn't even know what to think. I couldn't get to a solution to my problems. Going through the steps, changed me. It made me look at me instead of everyone else. It made me get honest about my life. It set me on the right course for my life. And it freed me from resentment, from putting the blame on people, being unforgiving. Eventually, it taught me how to maintain a life that is free from all those things. The past can freeze a person and cause them to stay in their prison of regret, depression, anger, and unforgiving state etc. It can cause you to just keep going around the same circle over and over again. I was at the point when I entered the program that I didn't think that even GOD could put me back together again, which I never wanted to admit to anyone. Thankfully, I was wrong. He has done more than put me back together again....he has gone way past my expectations. I will tell you that the 12 step program is a great program. I see miracles of lives being changed from the pit to healthy productive lives every day. Personally, I think everyone could benefit from working through the 12 steps. Who doesn't have a past that they aren't dragging around with them? Or Who doesn't have resentment, and anger, hurt and pain about their lives. Everyone does. How do I live today? I live those steps. I've learned how to forgive, let go and let God. I've learned how to get an accurate perception of things that go on in my life, I've learned how to be honest about me and how I live. God has worked amazingly in my life through this program, just by application of biblical principles. How can that be wrong?

My uncle has been in AA for around 30 years. It saved his life. He has lived a very productive life since he sobered up and has helped many people be sponsoring them in AA. I have nothing but praise for AA. Craig is an idiot.

I know many of VP's grandchildren and one of his kids. I have to say they are well intentioned people and not the dirtball VPW was. Though, I had on of his grandchildren tell me the family knew he was not faithful to Mrs. Wierwille. I have no doubt little V2P2 means well, at least I would like to give him credit until I know otherwise. I will say that Victor Paul Wierwille (the original) is generally regarded as a great man of God by his family. He just had some shortcomings is all. I don't expect much from SOWERS. I expect they will fizzle out because no one is really buying TWI's brand of cultism any longer. The internet was the final marginalizing nail in their self imploding coffin.

Wouldn't you need masses of people to have mass weddings? I'm just askin'.

Wouldn't they have to get married at the annual mass wedding-fest? Oh, just remembered. There aren't enough in rez Corps to make a mass of anything.

Dreams are fine, if you are asleep. The only difference between a dream and a goal is a plan. So, plan something, you few remaining innies! Sleep well, Rozilla. Your ranks are clearly not fully cleansed...

I've been there. I've rationalized hanging on to my own detriment. The conclusion I've come to is that it's one thing to waste your own life on that - you make the decision, you deal with the consequences. However, wasting your kids life on that is in my opinion where it becomes criminal. Thankfully a lot of TWI raised kids are smarter than their parents and are seeing through the sham and saying no to the BS, running for the hills and building themselves healthy lives. Just ask yourself, of the lady semi-couple (Rozie and Donna) running TWI, how many of their kids are following in their leadership example? Hmmmm. None? Rozie marked and avoided her kids so she didn't have to deal with them and could cut them out of her life. Donna's kids couldn't wait to get away from HQ and away from all that garbage. I mean the healthiest thing to happen to TWI would be if some of the minions would grow a pair and throw Jezebel over the wall figuratively. But like all practiced dictators like Hitler and Stalin, Rozie is adept at sniffing dissention and immediately axes people before they can amass power to do that. What a paranoid life. What a sad existence for all involved.