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Waysider.......it was B.G. Leonard from whom dictor paul plagiarized verbatim, the definitions of all nine of the "manifestations". Verbatim! From SIT to Gifts of Healing, all B.G. DPW NEVER wrote ANYTHING! He couldn't! He had every one of his "written works" transcribed from tapes made of all his garbage at Chimes Hour Youth Caravan and his Sunday sermons. He was too dumb to write. Plagiarism was necessary for him to write anything. That's why it's all word-for-word. So, first Rhoda, and then his daughter Karen, and later, Donna Randall, transcribed and edited everything to make it sensible, coherent English. Dic could not write! He was a C- student at Sheboygan Mission House College. He attended Princeton Theological Seminary which has absolutely NOTHING to do with Princeton University. It was a separate, Presbyterian Seminary located in Princeton, NJ, with zero affiliation with anyone except the Presbyterian Church! Another false assumption dictor purposely promoted to enhance his "academic credentials" in the PR propaganda dic used to hype himself. FRAUD much??? LOL! "I find it interesting that everybody here attacks me personally. Nobody address the things I say about the word. You keep wanting to make it about VP. Nobody here really knows my thinking on VP or the twi because I've said next to nothing about either. Go back and look. My interest is in the word. I started this post by saying I don't care how I got the word, VP, Stiles, Buillinger, or whatever or whoever doesn't matter. I'm pro word and seldom think about VP, twi, or any splinter group. I'm involved with NO group whatsoever. I've not been to one fellowship with the Way or any splinter group. My thoughts are my own. True, some line up with what VP says, but that doesn't mean VP channels through me when I speak." Okay Rich. So what's the Julian Bible Institute that your e-mail address blabs about?? Not a group???? YOU LIE! Typical of brainwashed personality cultists. Congratulations! You have proven yourself once again! LMAO!

Nice try on the "GSC speak" diversion angle.........splat You stay in the echo chamber of pfal.........and your wayspeak gives you away.

No book, true, but the doctrine was still there. I think they understood a little bit about the new birth. Don't you?

All nine all the time. Hey. That's pretty good. It's nine more then VPW operated. The most I ever saw him do was repeat the old "Lo Shanta La Macka See Tay" shtick. Does anyone have any evidence VPW operated all nine...or even one? I'd love to hear about the evidence. edit: VPW teaching how to operate "all nine all the time" is like a homeless guy teaching how to achieve financial success... except, there really is such a thing as financial success.

And, Rich.........just so you know, that "all nine all the time" slick-vic slogan was DROPPED from twi. From 1990-1998 (when I exited twi).........I never once heard that slogan again. Not from martindale. Not from my region coordinators. Not on a sunday teaching tape. Just like the word "twig"........it was phased out of existence. Even the twit-cult had to adapt from time to time from slick-vic chicanery. Funny, that its the sycophants who exited twi but STILL repeat the slogans.....that show up on Facebook and/or troll GSC.

DWBH, how sad!! So many members of the Way Corps were smart, and had much to offer the world. If VPW had been a real MOG, so much good could have been done for His people!! Such a waste of talent, and the lives of so many people!! How sickening!!

Sky, I try to stay out of arguments, because I usually find them non-productive, but I think you are right about DWBW. He was in the front row, watching all the S--t go down in TWI, so he knows more about it, than most of us. Personally, I am happy that I don't know all that he knows about the inner workings of Way World. If I did, I think I might have to be on some super-strong medication!! And as he says, if you don't like his posts, don't read them!! One thing about DWBH, he doesn't Bullsheet in his posts; you know where he stands on the issues. Besides, I think his posts are funnier than h--l!! God bless you, and yours DWBH!!

Well, it isn't necessarily good for using as a hammer to beat people up and telling them they are wrong...

Rob's, what nasty things have people said to you??!! I was not hurt by VPW, or TWI. But, many people were; some of the women here were raped by that POS!! If you want to stay, great!! But if you continue to post, people will respond to your posts at times. I personally try to stay out of arguments; many of the people here at the GSC, are far smarter than me!! I am consistently amazed at how intelligent many of the people are here!! I am intelligent enough to know when to respond, and when to STFU. I love coming here, because it makes me think, and also at times it makes me laugh!! Sometimes though it makes me cry!! I feel a sense of peace, and love here, that I rarely felt in TWI. I wish you the best honey!!

Rob, perhaps there is some bitterness, and acrimony, but there is also a lot of truth here. I think it's a great Web Site, because most of us are loving, kind, and intelligent. If someone is flinging BS, he/she will be called on it, IMO.

Rrobs, presuming everything you posted was serious, you're running into some very elementary and very obvious problems. 1) You do not know where you are. The GSC exists specifically to "tell the other side of the story" with twi, and sometimes with its offspring, the offshoots. That means that, not only is it NOT a vpw admiration society, it is the opposite of that, and people have told about the many felonies for which vpw would have gone to prison if he had been caught, and if he hadn't been as thorough as he had been in covering his @$$ when raping women and making sure they wouldn't tell on him. So, posts extolling his brilliance, or ignorant of the rather fundamental flaws of pfal and twi materials, will reflect poorly in this crowd. (vpw plagiarized and often didn't really understand what he plagiarized, so he reproduced correctable errors entirely, and sometimes quoted incorrectly and contradicted himself, and sometimes added a few things to make himself sound like he was walking around getting revelation when he was using hidden sources for his (often wrong) claims, and occasionally adding a bit of charlatan showmanship to make it look more convincing.) 2) Furthermore, posts which reflect a vocabulary centered around twi-speak that also include claims that the poster examined vpw's work independently and thoroughly expose a rather marked lack of thoroughness in that department. 3) The GSC exists to "tell the other side of the story." It is not a Christian messageboard, nor does it need to be. There's no universal consensus on doctrine among posters that represent a variety of Christian positions, Jewish, atheist, agnostic, wiccan, etc. So, expecting everyone here to agree on the Bible as THE standard is not effective, even if it's not as volatile as trying to get them to agree on twi materials as THE standard. 4) Because there's such a variety of posters, there's no one official consensus. However, you'll notice that nearly all the posters agree about vpw's plagiarism having been proven beyond a reasonable doubt, and about his rapes and molestations having been proven beyond a reasonable doubt. That's because they're so well-documented and tracked after the fact that people from greatly-differing perspectives agree on them. 5) If what you're looking for is "the cheerful posts", the GSC is not the best forum for you. It's here to INFORM. Do you look to the evening news for your daily dose of sunshine? Furthermore, there's threads that are fairly cheerful. They're NOT in the forum where we discuss vpw's felonies. 6) Much of the time, we don't need to rehash the same felonies here- except when someone arrives and announces they didn't happen or that they were exaggerated or that it's fine that vpw was a plagiarist and rapist or whatever. THEN we have to get into the same old horse manure all over again. 7) The fact that we've informed people about vpw's felonies and so on does not mean we spend all our free time being depressed, negative people. We all have lives, and they're not on this board. The blithe dismissal of people with fantasies that this is how they spend their off-time is trite, and one defense mechanism of those who desperately want to imagine vpw was half the man he claimed he was. 8) If you really want to get into Doctrine, post in Doctrinal. If you want some light-hearted fun, we have gaming threads. in the Movies/Music forum. If you just want to repeat how wonderful vpw was and twi was without finding out why we disagree so strongly, this is the wrong messageboard for you. There's closed communities online that do little else but that very thing. They welcome another poster parroting the party line and would love to have you. If that's NOT what you want, then pay a little attention and consider changing your approach here. All the wayspeak, posted here, is a lot like someone showing up to a Holocaust Survivor panel in a Nazi uniform and playing the jackboot.

When the Death Certificate lists the TYPE of cancer that was the cause of death, someone dismissed it with "cancer shmancer", If you got cancer in twi, vpw HIMSELF would have gotten on you for it, since he said it was devils that were responsible for them, and if you were vulnerable to devils, it was a failing on YOUR part. (Job's miserable comforters had nothing on vpw when it came to suffering misfortunes, especially illnesses.) vpw would have reprimanded you for dismissing it so blithely- except you were excusing HIM, and HE gets a free pass from all the condemnation he passed around and judgements he passed. When plagiarism was discussed, someone dismissed it with "nonsense!" The examples of plagiarism are proven, documented, and extensive. (Not all the plagiarism has been documented, but almost everything vpw taught came from the pen of someone else.) When someone can dismiss those things so casually, I can't take them seriously. I certainly can't respect them.

Are you comparing yourself to Paul? I'm sure you probably didn't mean it like that, but that's how it sounds. Anyway, Paul's not here, so it's a non-issue. BTW, for anyone still interested in the original topic, it's important to note that Are The Dead Alive Now? is also a product of plagiarism. For this one, Wierwille combined Bullinger's The Rich Man and Lazarus: An Intermediate State? and King Saul and the Witch of Endor, which is currently out of print HERE is a discussion we had some time ago.. And, of course, if you combine Bullinger's How To Enjoy The Bible, Figures of Speech in The Bible, along with portions of BG Leonard's class (which Wierwille absconded after forcing his way into it when it was offered in Canada.) and Stile's book, being discussed here, you have almost the entire PFAL class, as well as large portions of the Intermediate and Advanced classes.. "The Word, like it hasn't been known since the first century!"...VPW (My mommy told me it's not nice to lie.)

Wow, but there is a lot of truth in DWBH's post!! He does not Bullsheet anyone!!

Y'know, I have NEVER heard any other organization talk about "standing" and "state". Haven't thought of it for years. Rarely have I heard talk of one's "walk." I attend two very good churches regularly. I have heard much practical teaching and suggestions as to how to live life with Jesus as the focus. There is teaching of fellowship with Jesus, God and one another. There is teaching of relationship with Jesus, God and one another. There is teaching on repentance, forgiveness, and a good many other things. There is even, sometimes, confession of our shortcomings, in public prayer (in vague language along the lines of "we have done what we ought not to have done, and not done what we ought to have done." And then a public act of forgiveness. ("Jesus Christ cleanses you from all unrighteousness.") I spend time pondering right application of Biblical principle to situations. This time, such an action might be right. Next time, some other action might be right, and the first type of action quite wrong. To think one set of responses is always the right and only set of responses is to think too shallowly, too rigidly, too black and white. What, it seems to me, is always right is to consider whether one's actions are the most loving, most considerate, that can be achieved at that time. This talk of "standing and state" seems to me to smack of jargon and thus divisiveness. And thus, not loving.

Hey Rich! Why not troll TLTF, STFI, GEER, LTFI, and the 3000 other TWIt offshoots? Agree with them too much, I guess? You and JulianBible are just another TWIt wannabe worshipping a drunk, Nazi, malignant, paranoid narcissist with the accompanying compulsive pathological lying, a serial sexual batterer and rapist, misogynist, racist, bigoted fraud. That's your great MOG, and idol. Be ye imitators of Vic is what your interpretation of Vic's interpretation of B.G.'s, and Bullinger's, and Stiles', and E.Stanley Jones, Rosalind Rinker, Glenn Clark, Rufus Mosley, Oswald Chambers Starr Daly, Kenyon, Welch, F.F. Bruce's, interpretations of whatever version of the Bible translated from whatever Greek or Hebrew, or Latin, or Aramaic critical texts, compiled from hundreds of MSS, copied from other MSS written by who knows because "there are no originals"! LOL! Go for it dude! It's failed for every other offshoot just like it will for your's. Do you know Mike O'Neil? Just like every other self-righteous and self-important offshoot TWIt has spewn forth. Good luck & Godspeed! Talk about a whiner. "What if this, what if that, well not really but, well that never really happened but, how many people have you hurt with your words, what if, what if, what if....." That's your rap Rich. We here at the GSC don't live or think in "what if"! We all prefer to live in and think of WHAT IS, not what ifs! It's played here 31 years now. You like self-serving, smarmy, condescending, hypothetical bible interpretations? FINE. Your problen! But, I refuse to feed you empty-headed trolls. Seen you scores of times here before. The only way to communicate with cultists like you is to ignore you. I'm happy to do that henceforth. Have fun whining and bullshitting your new cult to income-producing status for your retirement. God bless and may your tribe decease. TTFG!

Thou shalt not surely die.

Two possible (likely) factors: 1) you don't seem to have grasped the essence of your audience; 2) you aren't clearly communicating your message. I get your frustration. Online message forums are very limited in their ability to communicate nuances that often are a part of nonverbal communication.

Hi again rrobs, I don't think it's really a matter of honest decent folks disagreeing over the application of Romans 2. What's really the issue here is the double standard of wierwille's "ministry". He would openly preach and teach how we all should obey the moral dictates of the Bible. But how he conducted his private life is another matter. Yes - this is one of the greatest secrets in way-world today..... wierwille's double standard. It is the cornerstone of hypocrisy. By his own words in unguarded moments, by his licentious lifestyle and by his predatory tactics - many of which are documented here and in published books - like "Undertow" and "Losing the Way" - it is wierwille who is in stark disagreement with how the Bible says one should conduct their life as a pastor, a husband, a father, a Christian! He lived a life by his own "rules" of wanton abandon. He could easily skirt around any biblical commands by saying it's not applicable to him. It's all in the nifty trick of an easily adaptable attitude of "unto the pure all things are pure" - or quote some other goofy pious platitude or "spiritual" reason - so for example he could plagiarize and justify that it was not lying or stealing because God showed him how to piece together everyone else's work - so it all fits like a hand in a glove. What about wierwille teaching the Bible means what it says and says what it means in PFAL? Doesn't the Bible condemn lying, stealing, adultery, sexually molesting women, raping women? Even most civilized countries have laws against that kind of stuff. But wierwille is above that? Does he have some kind of diplomatic immunity ? Where's the sense of justice if I obey the law and don't commit any of those things but I'm suppose to ignore some joker who's doing all that like it's going out of style? And he's supposedly a man of God? And he's preaching to everyone that we're supposed to obey God and follow his word?!?!?!?!?... ....maybe a tad hypocritical don't you think. Grease Spot shares the same lot as whistleblowers - in that the truth often pi$$es off certain groups of people - those who spin the web of deception and those who want to remain ensnared in that "comfortable" web.

I revealed your name. Whoops! Sorry. I don't blame you for wanting to hide it. My bad. How old are you now, r? 12? Oh! I'm sorry! I must be being mean again! LOL! I've got to stop that. I am being so adversely affected I'm laughing my ass off! Thanks for helping me LMAO r. I know you really wanted to. Mission accomplished. I think you and reality need to hook-up. Put a hook in yourself and reel yourself back to Earth. LOL.

Rich R......I remember you quite well. I flew on that plane while you were pilot, several times. You had a mustache and darker hair back then..... Thanks for the safe flights. I remember you as a diligent and kind man. However, "The Truth" is whatever each human decides it is......whether that be "The Word", the Koran, Dianetics, The Bagha Va Gita, the writings of The Buddha, Confucius, The Beatles, Bertrand Russell, Ted Nugent, Clapton, The Southern Baptist Convention, The United Methodist Church, The Haddakahs and Hallakahs of Judaism, Aristotle, Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, The Tibetan Book of the Dead, The Great Spirit of the Indigenous Peoples of North America, Henry David Thoreau, Ralph Waldo Emerson, The Unitarian Universalist Church, The Aztecs, Incas, and Mayan Empires, Zoroastrian deism, Astrology, The Mormons, The Egyptian Gods and Pharoahs, The Roman and Greek gods and goddesses, atheism, socialism, capitalism, and on and on and on. Whatever you feel dictor paul taught you that is still beneficial to you today, is a positive, personal outcome of your "working" with and for him. Unfortunately, your single positive experience is grossly overshadowed by the DOCUMENTED and even ADJUDICATED experiences of hundreds of innocent victims of the same creep you say taught you "The Truth". Victims of his sexual abuse and serial rape. Victims of his "righteous anger". Victims of his fiduciary irresponsibility. Victims of his thefts and frauds. Victims of his pathological mental illnesses and his vicious, narcissistic, spiteful vengeance. Victims of his Nazi and racial hatred. Victims of his unabashed misogyny. Victims of his violent, sociopathic outbursts of repressed rage. Victims of his untreated alcoholism and later opioid abuse. Victims of his perverted peccadilloes and sexual deviance. Victims of his capricious, petulant sense of "biblical justice". Victims of his murderous self-loathing and rabid insecurities. Victims of his sociopathic, malignant, paranoid, narcissistic personality disorder and total lack of moral conscience. I am glad you were able to avoid and/or escape these character traits of your faddah-in-da-woid. I am sad for the many hundreds who enjoyed no such good fortune at the hands of that toxic, anti-Christ hater. There is hatred here at the GSC. Hatred for the whited sepulchers hypocrisy of dictor Paul, da forehead, and all the deadly iterations of Vic's phony "minus-tray". There is hatred here for the hubris, greed, and vulgar dishonesty of Vic and his boyz in da hoods. There is hatred here for the methods used to drive faithful innocents to suicide, and substance abuse. There is hatred here for the coerced abortions of vic's illegitimate offspring. There is hate here for pompous, egregious, self-serving and self-aggrandizing hateful arrogance with which dictor paul conducted his daily affairs and "business". Apparently, you lucked out in avoiding the traps so many less fortunate wayfers walked right into. I'm happy for you. However, if you wish to continue your prepubescent delusions and affections for dictor paul, you have indeed come to the wrong place. But, as long as you're willing to take the heat for your 35 year old memories of life flying for the owner of Shangri-La and living da "truth" you are welcome to post here and flaunt your delusional memories in the faces of the many victims of Vic who also post here. You are NOT hated here Rich. The lies and evil, perverse deeds done to many hundreds of innocent Christians by your faddah-in-da-woid are..............peace.

I was never corps/jc. It is my understanding that LCM, in his righteous dance-off against the invisible, ripped the veil top to bottom. He made no distinction between jew and gentile, corps and non-corps, human beings and slime molds.

Don't Worry, After meeting you at the Texas BBQ a few years ago I just have to say your posts pretty much reflect the way you are in person – and that's fine by me! Due to the fact that the insidious nature of TWI's top leadership is exceedingly abundantly above what other egomaniacs could ask or think - I believe it's going to take whistle blowers who have almost a "righteous" chutzpah (i apologize if that's not the correct word to use) commensurate with the size of the maniacs' egos....So don't feel like you have to adjust the volume or EQ knobs on my account. I consider you and a few other men and women on Grease Spot who have shared what goes on behind the scenes, almost like a bittersweet treasure; I am sorry for your pain and experiences but I appreciate your insight and compassion to help others. The inner workings of TWI are like black ops of all that is immoral, deceitful and spiritually dark; and perhaps Grease Spot is fortunate to have some tripped out Jason Bournes who now expose TWI's "Operation Treadstone" and their agenda of assassinating the soul.

I've been looking at some of these letters at random. Jeepers, the whiny tone of the letter of Dec 28, 1981. And the duplicity. About love of money, two-drink limit, and sexual addiction. Barf!!

DWBH, the problem for me with some of your posts is that in TWI we got so used to bile and vile spewings and name-calling that when someone starts up with this line of speech, it moves me (at least) into "closed ears" position. It washes over me and just leaves me feeling annoyed, and disappointed at the person yelling. So I miss whatever pearls there might be. That's whether it's someone physically shouting, or "shouting" via written material. The shouting makes it seem too personal - an "I don't like you" kids' name-calling. Whereas Charlene, for example, has a more dispassionate (ie, detached, not that she's not passionate!) approach. She can be just as excoriating, but does it quietly and very pointedly: no name-calling but lots of facts. And I "pin back my ears" to hear what she has to say. You have a lot to say and to share about the inner workings of TWI. A calmer, more reasonable, factual, approach just might get you heard more, by some people who lurk and post here. Be quietly deadly. It's more painful Revenge, as the saying goes, is best served cold. Deadly cold. You can still be a clarion call, a wise warning. Heh heh.

Thanks for your input and advice WordWolf. I always enjoy your posts. I said nothing nasty or antagonistic to or about TLC in my first post. Certainly nothing that warranted the nasty stuff from him I reposted when asking him what his "problen" was with my post? Never got an answer from him. What got your TWIt panties in such a bunch TLC? Did mean old dwbh recount FACTS about dictor paul in a way which upset poor little thin-skinned-for-vic-and-Ethelbert's-hyperdispensationalismTLC? Awwww..............:)/> I choose my words carefully and purposefully when writing about dic'n'TWIt. Are they graphic at times? You bet! But NOTHING I have ever written or spoken about dictor or his sycophantic followers and corpse, is anywhere nearly as graphic as the crimes dictor and his Twustees committed during the entire history of TWIt, and all roads lead back to "The Teacher". Let's see.....what were those crimes and pathological illnesses which caused that graphic horror upon hundreds and hundreds of TWIt victims?.......1)malignant paranoid narcissist. 2)delusional sociopath. 3)racist. 4)misogynist. 5)neo-Nazi fascist. 6)Aryan Supremacist. 7)serial rapist. 8)serial sexual assault which included drugging his victims. 9)pathological liar. 10)alcoholic, and from 1982 until he died, opioid addicted (codeine and oral MS04). Now, ANYONE can pick up a good dictionary and look up these words, again, chosen carefully and purposely, (sorry if you take that as a "homework assignment" WordWolf....LOL). Look at what they mean! THAT's what and who dictor paul, da forehead, coward, ding-dong, rosie and donna and TWIt were all about. Tell me where that's wrong, ANYONE! You're correct WordWolf. I am an adult. I am 65 years old and I certainly will dial nothing back now! If it crosses lines the mods think are uncrossable, which is THEIR responsibility, I am faithful to my commitment as an active member here, to allow them to censor me according to their best judgement. That doesn't happen very often, but I have given Raf carte Blanche to censor or edit any post of mine for which he thinks such action is necessary. He does an excellent job, and all volunteer. I trust him, but I don't want to tie him up judging what I post. He's got enough to do, but, as I said, I gave him that license and he lets me post. TY. So, again, thanks for the input WordWolf. Have a great night, and...........peace. [mod statement: Thank you for your trust. Now PLEASE knock off the namecalling. There are ways to imply TLC is too sympathetic toward VPW without calling him "thin-skinned for vic," etc. Argue against the position, not the man]

So was VPW the source of these ridiculous salutations? (God Bless in the most powerfully abundantly blessed name that is above all blah blah blah . . . ) "I thank you Dr. Weirwille, for never attaching a single string to my life" February 17, 1981 BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

is this a toast or a weenie roast? if the latter, i would like to toast wierwille's little weenie roast

WD, if you're willing to consider our professional credentials, consider this. I've been an editor and/or writer for 24 continuous years, and that's not counting my first job as a reporter/copy editor in 1967 and some earlier freelance work. Four of those 24 years were spent in Way Publications. One of my tasks in Way Pub was researching copyright ownership on the songs in Sing Along the Way, after the legal dept. or somebody finally figured out some royalties might be due someone. I'm not a copyright lawyer either, but I know a little bit about copyrights and publishing ethics. This is the bottom line, plain and simple, which has been stated in a multitude of ways already, but what the heck: Regardless of the legality/illegality of lifting someone else's writing verbatim without citing the source of that specific writing, it is WRONG. It's unethical. Period. It is, at the very least, sloppy workmanship and, at the worst, dishonest.

Yep. And we disagree that it was wrong and immoral for vee pee to have not given proper credit for Stiles' work regardless of whether or not it was stolen with permission. Which, for me, is yet one more reason (among many) vee pee is despicable and no man of God or person to be respected. :)

"All he is to you is a liar and a thief. And worse." Um, no, now you're lying about me. But you know that. He WAS a liar. Morally and ethically, he WAS a thief. He was also a manipulative predator and a disgrace. But for you to say that this is "all he is to" me is a deliberate distortion, because YOU KNOW BETTER.

How you guys manage to see shades of grey in something so clearly black and white, something you'd NEVER look past if the perpetrator's initials were not VPW, is beyond me. Oh, what was his intent? His intent was to get you to believe he was the author of these works, when in fact he was lifting them in whole or in part from other people. His intent was to insult our intelligence. The effect is, otherwise intelligent people are choosing to lower their intelligence levels on this particular subject to excuse his deception, rather than acknowledge it for what it is.

Put all the legal mumbo jumbo on the back burner for a moment. He took someone elses work and pretended it was his own( Knowing full well it was not). He claimed God gave it to him in a bundle of revelation the likes of which the world hadn't seen for 2,000 years. He knowingly deceived a lot of unsuspecting people including myself. Personally, I don't really give a rats' posterior whether it was legal or not. The man knowingly lied, plain and simple, and that is not an acceptable practice for someone who supposedly is Gods' representative to the world for modern times. If that makes him "one of the finest men you have ever known" you have my sympathy. Did he tell us "not to read other books"? As a matter of fact, that very challenge was presented in the PFAL class by VPW himself. Why people feel compelled to look for loopholes that will excuse his unGodly and conscious "nose thumbing" of those areas of Gods' word in which he professed himself to be expert is beyond me.

By the way, Linda, if it seems I'm being hard on you or overly antagonistic, I apologize. I actually respect that you write with logic and clear thinking, even when I don't agree with your conclusion. A tough argument deserves an uncompromising response. But I think you're great and I love to dialogue with you, even when we're not on the same side.