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Thanks WordWolf for bringing up that excellent post by oldschool.....what excellent insight and perspective, imo. Very illuminating. Regarding Rosie's Maiden name.......you know, the one that's on the social register in New Bern, NC dating back to colonial north carolina.......Fox...... I used to poke fun at her back in the daze of those 40th Anniversary Weekends in the Regions during 1981-82. She and Boob Winegarner were in charge of the whole PR and Way Prod schtick and accompanying entourage for those monstrosities of the dpw personality cult leading up to Living Victoriously in June, !982, at New Knoxville. I was trunk guy at the time and had to be at each of those events also....there were 8 regions in the US trunk then.....making sure the region and limb guys had all the necessary money, people, and emotional stability to handle these incredible juggernauts of TWIt worship and idolatry of the insane. This meant i always ran into them on the Way Prod Coach or Ambassador One at each weekend, which is where i learned to dislike each of them very much. They were simply top ministers in the court of the bloody king. I always made fun of Rivenbark about the little fancy home she had built for herself at the back end of wierwille rd. She paid for it to be custom built for her by Way Builders, including the nice big in-ground swimming pool and the latest most expensive interior furnishings and appliances, including furnished apartment with two bedrooms in the basement. SHE called it "Foxhaven". I called it "Crotch-haven" which was actually a triple entendre!......LOL!...... Nevertheless, completely accurate at every level. Rosie hated it, but every body else, (wine garner, coward and emogene, donnie, da forehead) cracked up every time i used it, so it wind up sticking big time, even making it's way through the entire president's cabinet.....LOL! Rosie was always kinda ....ed at me about that........and other things I'm sure. Let me just sum up my relationship with rFr......."I HATED every second of High Country Caravan ever produced, performed, or even thought of. I hated the band Braindead.....er 'skuse me......Branded, I hated the Victims....'skuse me.....The Victors......and I hated the entire concept behind it. It was completely offensive and embarrassing to me personally. Quite frankly, it was utterly repulsive to me." Since rosie and dictor were the two creative forces behind that POS and the in-the-flesh representatives of the entire concept and choice of the target demographic groups, the pink highlighted sentences accurately sums up my attitudes toward rosie at that time and since. Rosie changed as little as she was compelled to by the legal beagles, and that quite begrudgingly so at every inch. She's as dirty as the rest of her board members and their faddah-in-da-woid. She'll probably outlive 'em all except donna. Then.....it'll all be Gone With The Wind for Crotchhaven and Scahhrlet Rosie Fox. And, frankly Scahhrlet Rosie, I don't give a damn.

Preach it, brother!

For several years, I worked as an RN in the OR at Robert Wood Johnson Hospital in NJ. I had the opportunity to meet a very diverse, highly educated and trained compassionate group of great human beings. I worked with a well-renowned vascular surgeon who was from Pakistan. He liked having me in his OR because we enjoyed interesting conversations while working together. He was a devout Muslim. I am not. He often said that the best thing he ever did in his life was leave his native Pakistan and come here to the USA. He felt the USA was the greatest country in the world to live in. I asked him what made him feel and think that. His answer was swift and emphatic. "It is the genius of our Constitution, especially the Bill of Rights, and especially the first amendment. To protect the FREEDOMS of religion, and the press, and the rights to peaceably assemble and to demand the redress of our grievances, is to me, the genius of our Bill of Rights. In Pakistan, these freedoms do not exist. And the reason given as to why they don't is because our dominant religion, which is also the religion of the state, refuses to accept anything else and thinks that the dominant religion should determine their laws and freedoms, and that religion should should underpin all government laws and determine societal conduct. That enslaves us all. The genius of keeping the State and all religions separate is what makes us the greatest country in the world. As a citizen by birth, born, raised, and educated in the USA, I realized how much of our founding governing documents I daily take for granted. And, when I saw how much they meant to a very talented man who felt so strongly about them that he gave up a very lucrative and important position in Pakistan to emigrate to the USA, to enjoy those freedoms. I agree with Broken Arrow: "What you are suggesting has been attempted and it didn't work so well. It was during the middle ages and it resulted in inquisitions. It came to where if you didn't agree with the king or authority you risked persecution, or even execution. Then a different authority would gain power and they would persecute for different reasons. There was no freedom for the individual and the carnage was much much worse. I would suggest that tyranny exists where dissent is forbidden and governments as a rule to not like dissent." Indeed, imo, tyranny does exist where dissent is forbidden. I also think our pal Rocky has offered some tremendous information and identified some books which are spot on in describing, exposing, and defining aspects common to cult groups of any kind. Thanks Rock! I agree that attempting to legislate cults out of existence would be tyranny. Most recent horrifying example to me was the spate of RFRAs that were introduced in state legislatures dominated by Christian Dominionists and political conservatives leaning to the far right. RFRA= religious freedom restoration acts, such as in IN, AR, and a number of other "red" states. These were pushed under the guise of supporting and defending the first amendment rights of individual churches and their members, which they interpreted as giving them the right to discriminate against the LGBTQ communities in their states by refusing them services, or products available to the general public simply because of their sexual orientation or "beliefs and practices". I was outraged by these blatant attempts at legalizing religious bigotry through laws "guaranteeing" freedom to discriminate against anyone whose beliefs do not line up with what these various religionists believe to be necessary behavior on the part of a certain group of citizens in order to allow these "freedom fighters" to practice their faith and follow their consciences by totally discriminating against the members of the LGBTQ communities in their states because they do not live their lives according to the dictates of the lawmakers interpretation of the Christiam religions' doctrines or practices. Totally opposite the First Amendement guarantees of freedom of religion they claim to be protecting by these bigoted, unconstitutional laws! Sounds like the Pakistan Dr. Khan left! That same First Amendment they claim the protection or restoration of by legalized bigotry, also protects our right to the freedom of critical thinking and freedom of speech and freedom of the press and the right to peaceable assemble and demand redress of our grievances. ALL of those together allow for peaceful dissent, rational, uncensored dialogue and informed, unrestricted, political debate. In other words, they protect us from TYRRANY, which was one of the fundamental causes of our Revolutionary War. Imo, it is sad that a talented and highly educated naturalized citizen from Palistan has more love and respect for our Constitution than many of our own, Ametican born "patriots"! Tyranny for any reason is WRONG, and unacceptable, at least in the USA. The right to free speech, an unfettered press, to believe what we choose to believe and think what we choose to think, and to freely and openly dissent and debate with those who disagree, must NEVER BE ABRIDGED for any reason, philisophy, or religious ideology. NEVER!

And,.........some "inadvertent cooperation" from his entourage......i.e. enablers. Bodyguards, valets, yes-men, swooning fawning admirers.........adding to the top marquee in town. Everyone, one and all.....come early, get your front row seats and expect to be excited......"Gawd's word is going to be delivered on a silver platter." This is the spiritual epicenter and no one gets missed. The hype and hoopla was at every class, every event. Promotion, promotion, promotion.........everyone was selling the soap. ALL of wierwille's long-standing enablers had their fiefdoms.......Harry was the successful business icon, Ermal was the quiet construction manager who listened to "pappy," George jess was the tree planter and sower of the seed, Howard was the "greatest layman in the church," Don was the educator, Emogene had her fiefdom in The Way's Bookstore, Wanda helped Mrs. W. with Guest Housing and Interior Decorating......and Mrs. W. was the epitome of "The Way's virtuous woman." Add the bus drivers/valets, security team personnel, corps coordinators, research team, roa administrators, musicians, architects, etc.......and The Entourage was a captivating package !! YET...........in all my years, I never saw any of the top-tier enablers step out and do any of the "Big Six" manifestations. Not one.

Great points Waysider & Penworks ! Ya know, this is one of the most fascinating things about my cult experience – and perhaps the driving force that compels me to keep coming to Grease Spot…It’s almost like a compulsive obsession I have - to better understand cult tactics and how and why I fell for them…Grease Spot uses a two prong approach – here posters not only examine & expose cult tactics, doctrine, practice, etc. but also reveal the weaknesses in their own thought process whereby they bought into the cult hook, line and sinker. In my humble opinion, this two prong approach is critical to one’s recovery from cult involvement. I have been involved in all aspects of security for some 38 years now and think a similar two prong approach is necessary when addressing any security concerns. A competent security consultant will not only keep up on the latest motives & methods of the bad guys but will also assess existing strengths and weaknesses of their client...Perhaps an axiom for security concerns holds true for cult prevention as well – good honest people are to be ever vigilant…whereas the bad guys are always looking for where vigilance is low or non-existent. When it first dawned on me that I had been deceived by wierwille & company – it was a little overwhelming and perhaps a bit of a shock. Almost like a bank president wondering in disbelief “how could those thieves pull off this huge heist with all the security measures I have in place?” But I think it takes a lot of time…self-reflection…honesty and humility to come to grips with the fact that it was partly an “inside job” - wierwille could not have pulled it off without some inadvertent cooperation on my part. Like Waysider was explaining – wierwille sold us a bill of goods – and we paid dearly for that in time, money & resources…It’s like some weird coordinated effort of wierwille’s disarmingly charming attack on our weak or non-existent critical thinking skills.

Old Vic thought Country Western Gospel songs were stylistically better than jazz or rock and roll

Ladies and gentlemen, please rise and join us in The San Antonio National Anthem.

Quite a few who used to post here regularly have passed on. Well, let's face it, most of us aren't exactly *spring chickens* anymore. It's all part of life, I suppose. Have some fun while you can. Fate's a fickle lady. In heaven there is no beer.

How ridiculous, Mrs A has a wealth of knowledge. And that's appropriate to share. It's part of the Body of Christ working together, every part contributing what it can. Mrs A, having raised all your kids, could contribute a lot in the realm of childcare, and what was an appropriate cause for concern and what was "normal" for a kid growing and developing. There were so few people with kids at that time, most were singles. I'm sure that later, F was able to advise and guide some of the others who later had kids, and that's nothing specially "spiritual." In fact, that's a significant reason why TWI failed. Didn't meet people's needs, kept them in enforced infancy and dependence, didn't allow natural growth in personality and development in changed circumstances, etc etc. God gave us common sense for a reason and TWI was out to destroy that as "senses knowledge" and replace it by its own "mystery religion." So thankful we're all out. ((Hugs)) to ((Mrs A)).

DWBH has a medical background. DWBH has both study and experience in medicine, at some level. vpw didn't- and still spoke at length on cancer. It was common for vpw to speak at length on topics on which he was factually ignorant.

You're welcome GVC!

I've been reading this thread with interest. The long lasting ill-effects of dictor paul's whacky interpretations of B.G. Leonard and J.E.Stiles ( among many others) show themselves in the daft acceptance that dictor's "insight" into the "holy spirit field" somehow still applies to 21st century REALITY. Let me assure you, in no way is this "hooky-pookism" relevant to ANYTHING real. It is a drunken, malignant narcissistic delusion DPW came up with to continue to bedazzle his followers with his hyperthalmic babble. DogLover's entire question rests upon Vic's goofy advanced class "definitions" and anecdotal ramblings. Who, besides dic and B.G. says "everything with life in and of itself is spirit"? Who, besides dic and B.G. "define" discerning of spirits as those two do? Who says "cancer has life of itself"? Who says cancer is a debbil spurt at all? Who says such things as a "spirit of infirmity" or a "spirit of cancer" actually exist? Who interprets the Old Testament and gospel events of "exorcisms" as they do? Why are their teachings and doctrines ASSUMED to be worth anything let alone "rightly divided scripture"? Answer? NO ONE BUT WAYFERS and LEONARD's disciples. These fantasy myths are not worthy to be a logical, reasonable basis for any meaningful conversation outside the confines of wierwilleism and Leonardism IMO. There is NO basis in fact for any of this garbage. It's ALL a matter of what you choose to believe and accept as "rightly divided Truth". Well......I reject ALL OF IT as the insane ramblings of a drunken, malignant paranoid narcissistic personality disorder, and the accompanying COMPULSIVE pathological lying and numerous character defects which also accompany it. It is not sane, logical, replicable, or documentable. It is not "equal" to science, psychiatry, clinical psychology, or LICSW counseling. It is purely and only anecdotal. It depends completely upon the belief of the followers of these men.....i.e. faith. Therefore, it bears no responsibility for objective, logical critique because it is a "matter of faith", not fact, science, or logic. With the wonderful advancement of scientific and technological diagnostics, both somatic and psychological, the understanding and effective treatment of all forms of cancer and psychiatric disorders, has made phenomenal progress to the benefit of millions of people. The mapping of the human Genome, advanced diagnostic tools such as the PET scan, quantum physics, electrochemistry, biology and physiology, 3-D printing of human organs and body parts, the ongoing synaptic and electrochemical mapping of the human brain along with specific effective medication regimens which did not exist previously, have all gone far beyond vic's dead bible interpretations and drunken ramblings. To use his teachings as a context for anything REAL is a fruitless waste of time IMO. As an RN, I have spent much time in education and training in psychiatric nursing and pharmacology. I have over a thousand clinical hours in actual clinical dealings with hundreds of patients. I have seen hundreds of patients who TWIt-n-vic would have "automatically" diagnosed as " possessed", by so-called "revelation" manifestations as defined and taught by Leonard and DP. Unfortunately for you wierwilleites, none of his BS ever helped any one of them! In current Psychiatric Medicine and Psychiatric Nursing, there is diagnostic room for matters of "faith and demon possession". There is recognition in Psychiatric Nursing of the spiritual component in EVERY Nursing Care Plan for each individual patient. Experientially, I have personally participated in "the casting out of devils" during my 16 years in TWIt. Yes! I did see miraculous results and instant healings in the name of Jesus Christ. That is one of the biggest reasons I choose to be a Christian, a follower of Jesus Christ, The Boss! I have seen "spiritual things", and, in my spiritual life I stick with Christ by free will choice. I do not believe my experiences are either the norm or standard for all "Christian believers", nor should they be. Dictor Paul Wierwille DID. He was WRONG! As a Christian, I believe in the "realm of the Spirit" as defined and demonstrated in many parts of the Bible. I DO NOT believe one single thing DPW ever taught. Not one. However, I will never discount the reality that God, and The Boss, Jesus Christ can do whatever they want anywhere at any time and in any manner They choose. I simply don't limit them to any man-made boxes, most especially those which came out of dp's diseased brain and drunken mind. No theology, ideology, religion, or dogma can define or limit God and The Christ. NONE. Those who think they can are sorely self-deluded. So......I don't think ANY cancer or any other somatic or psychiatric disease is caused by debbil spurts. I don't think "everything gives off something" like debbil spurts. The definition of "anything with life in and of itself" as "spirit" is ABSURD in any context IMO, both as a nursing professional and a spiritual Christian. The current science and medicine leaves room for "spiritual components" without relying upon first century beliefs, practices, or "science". I believe in REALITY. And as Jesus said: "The Truth (REALITY) shall make you free." GET REAL people.................peace.

There were things I was told about or saw that I assumed were isolated incidents. Later, I discovered said activities were widespread. The sexual escapades are a common example. Another was the exploitation of others' resources, whether money, material goods, labor or special talents. My point here is that I did not realize these things were present throughout the *cough* ministry. I thought they existed only in the isolated observations I had made. Adding to the obscuring of facts was the idea you weren't supposed to talk about such matters with other believers. In fact, even voicing an acknowledgement signaled unrenewed mind on your own part for thinking evil of your brother or sister. So, a lot of misdeeds remained hidden. Is this related to what you mean or do you mean they do know but remain indifferent?

Waydale, and to a lesser extent GSC, was crucial in exposing the truth of TWI and providing its former members a place to gather and share thoughts. That TWI is a shell of its former self can at least PARTLY be attributed to this site and its predecessor. However, let's not exaggerate our influence. TWI was on a downward spiral long before we came along.

Would any of us have joined The Way if we had known what was in our futures?

One of the problems of fundamentalist/evangelical protestant thinking in general, and of TWI specifically, is narrowing down the meanings of terms to the point where they can't really be used in free-flowing conversation. It's hard for me to see that narrowing the term "cult" is particularly useful. There are "cults" that are harmless, like the followings of sports figures or rock stars, and at the other extreme there are cults that are much more cold-blooded and vicious than TWI was, such as Scientology or Momentus. There are even spoof cults like The Church of the SubGenius! The feature that distinguishes a harmless cult from a harmful one is whether or not the leaders are honest with the followers about what they are in for. The leaders of harmful cults make their followers deployable to a hidden agenda. The overt agenda of TWI was to take the Word Over the World. The hidden agenda was to provide money, power, adulation and sexual prey for Wierwille and the Trustees. Love, Steve

I wanted to add to this rather than edit... Some might argue that, because you are the one who is modifying your own behavior, that the fault lies with you. (The old "gun to the head" routine) However, if you are basing your decisions on false or misleading information being fed to you, the fault must be shared by the deceiver. Example: You buy a used car. One of the factors that motivates your choice is low mileage. You later find out the seller altered the actual mileage. It was your decision to buy the car but it was the seller's choice to bias the deciding factors.

Good luck Charlene! Remember.....in a pinch, Pathouli Oil never fails! It's a throwback thing.

Good point. Self-reflection dropped to zero in many of our cases. When you are in a box, you don't realize it until it begins to split apart and you see specs of light peek through. From all of our posts, it's apparent we are well aware of the cult problem. What are solutions? Again, last night we watched a show on the History Channel titled, America's Book of Secrets. Season 2, Deadly Cults (first aired May 10, 2013). The segment on dangerous cults was pretty good. Deadly cults Rick Ross, a cult examiner who is often an expert witness in courts, made the point, along with others who were interviewed, that our own freedoms in the US - freedom of speech, religion, and assembly, are what pave the way for cults to form legally...and easily. Rick Ross, cult awareness site To most of us, the following is not news: It is easy in our country to form a non-profit and say it is a new religion and boom, a new cult is born. And it enjoys the protections under the constitution that major well-known religions enjoy, including tax exemption status. That's one downside... Note: Remember that Europeans endured the rough seas of the Atlantic to get to this promised land so they could express their beliefs and enjoy religious freedom and boy did they get it, for the most part. Some persecutions persisted for years until those freedoms were enforced. Give a nod here to Thomas Jefferson, etc. Everyone goes through hard times in life, as Rick Ross pointed out on the Deadly Cults episode, and it is during those vulnerable times that a devoted follower of a dangerous cult comes along with ANSWERS. Those of us here at GSC can say AMEN to that! We are all too familiar with the problem of dangerous cults. What are solutions? I wish I had one magic answer, don't you? As far as I can tell, all we can do is try and head off seekers at the pass that leads into cult territory. One way is to tell our stories. GSC has had some good results in opening peoples' eyes to TWI and to cults in general. Let's not fear sharing our cautionary tales whenever and however we can. In my experience, as uncomfortable as that has been sometimes as a guest with groups of students in a classroom, in the end it is worth the embarrassment and sweaty armpits, and sometimes I get choked up. Usually I find people are thankful for the heads-up. Maybe that's the best preventive measure we have available in our country. Tell our stories. Any time that is appropriate. Otherwise, we'd be stuck with someone "at the top of government" I guess, who would have to decide which groups are destructive cults and which ones are not. Case in point, the Branch Davidians, as that History Channel show pointed out, was a "benign commune" until David Koresh showed up. He took over as prophet and we know the rest of that terrible, devastating story. I suppose I am rambling, but I just want to say---don't ever stop talking, Grease spotters. Wish me luck for another presentation at another college soon. I need new deodorant! Enjoy your weekend. Penworks

In PFAL we were taught to "Stand, no matter what happens." (paraphrased a bit) You can't do that without modifying your own behavior. In doing so, you become an active part of the procedure. That's what makes it so difficult to recognize.

I found this excellent article about cults. Cult Attraction is Not a Problem of Logic

Thanks! Wonderful take on cultism.

MRAP - there are a fair number of people here who fell for TWI hook, line, and sinker. They gave years - many times the best years - of their lives only to be unceremoniously dumped at the first question directed towards leadership. They had nothing. They were kept poor and many times underfed. They came here shattered. Many have PTSD. This is their place to vent and be protected. You are like me: Not in for too long and not deeply involved. I sincerely have no point of reference when it comes to what they went through. I found my fringe involvement confining and appalling enough. I don't get how they did it, much less why. Your military training, by and large, protects you from personalizing. The corp trained received a sort of military training that tore people down and built them into non-thinking non-individuals.There was no outside point of reference that was accepted as a viable standard for living. When some of these people were kicked out, it would be similar to a court martial and simply leaving them on the road with nothing but the clothes on their backs. Unfortunately, in many instances, outside family relations had been damaged. Family who remained were not allowed to interact with those who left. They were devastated. They came here. Many have managed to pull themselves together. Some more quickly and thoroughly than others. There is no time table. There are very few TWI or splinter apologists here. Some swoop in hoping to latch onto a few who pine for the old days. Some just like to debate doctrine. A fair number finally figure out that everything they once held dear is nothing more than vomit. Most eventually lose the lingo. Some eventually develop some actual critical thinking skills. But in every case it is a process. People want you to respect that process, even if you don't think you need it.

I found RELIEF!!! Really, that's the MAIN feeling I had after leaving.

I found that it was ok to not have everything laid out in neat little black and white piles of right and wrong. I found real spirituality. I found out how to think for myself. I found out that life was a lot more complex and beautiful than I had realized. I found the importance of family. I found out I was actually more of a liberal than a conservative... (THAT was a suprise!) I found self respect and respect for others. I found love, but I don't claim to understand or even to have experienced all of it. I found that God was bigger and less explainable than I thought He was and that I am ok with that.

What did I find?????????? To put it simply - - - The More Abundant Life. Any other questions?