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These Biblical comparisons are an exercise in flawed logic. They are begging us to draw an unwarranted conclusion. Now, by comparing him to Paul, you're asking us to believe that he was hand picked by God to (in essence) rewrite the scriptures. Do you have any idea how ludicrous this is?

And from the ashes arose PLAF The Wonder Class.

Greasespot Café broke the wierwille-propaganda machine.........and, it's beyond repair.

Right, like wearing a pair of these....lol

It looks more like he's setting up an order of priority rather than making a distinction how the info is received; the word of god has priority over reason- logic and spiritual truth has priority over facts of the natural world. Maybe that's where Chris G got his "look for the truth behind the facts" thing , I dunno I do get what you're saying though - but I would like to tie that into what I said - in II Cor. 5:7 we're told to walk by faith and not by sight; it doesn't say we're to walk by faith and not by reason. I'm of the opinion it's complementary - faith and reason, that is. Also in Isa. 1:18 Is God's invitation to our minds - come now let us reason together I know all the stuff about God's ways are higher than ours, blah blah blah - but still he chooses to come down to our level and engage us as the creatures of reason that we are. And one more thing I'd like to address - what is the difference between truth and fact? Philosophically truth is the aim of a belief system; but in a general sense what is true is also a fact; World War I began in 1914 - is that true? Yes - and it's also a fact.

Yep. From Waydale to GSC the damage is done and the truth revealed. I lurked here for years before joining the community. GSC opened my eyes to so many issues the way international does not want revealed.

Wierwille's Orange Book sat on the wall. Wierwile's Orange Book had a great fall. Something, something, something... SPLAT!

This is right on the money. Whats worse the way international considers wierwilles books (at least the ones they approve of and still sell) proven ministry research, and thus above question and error free. They place his books on par with the Bible. Right from the first fellowship a person's indoctrination begins. By the time i graduated into the way corps i had a good plate if scrsmbled way brain with cheese. His stolen material may have some really good content. However, his stolen material is most iften twisted to conform to all things vpw.

Okay, Mike.........against my better judgment to indulge your wierwille-sycophancy...... The wierwille-shtick was devoid of "receiving revelation" ........the man was a fraud and huckster. In all my cult-years around wierwille, I NEVER ONCE saw the guy receive OR operate revelation......ie word of knowledge, word of wisdom or discerning of spirits. NOT ONE TIME. Wierwille claimed an 8th corps guy was possessed in the BRC.......wierwille stomped and stammered and did nothing! The night at corps week when it was pouring rain and the big top tent was dangerously pooling water above.....wierwille blamed the corps. Wierwille looked me straight in the eyes after my deprogramming experience and said that my parents would be DEAD IN FIVE YEARS for having put me thru that captivity and experience. My Dad lived 27 years longer, my Mom lived 34 years longer........than wierwille's fraudulent "prophecy." I could give plenty more examples, Mike.........but I don't care to. After 24 years around Vic, Howard, Don, Dotsie, Emogene, Wanda, and the cult-clan........I saw everything I needed to see. But go ahead and live off the delusions of this scam if you like..........where "the rubber meets the road" it just wasn't there. I don't care how many times you add "references" or "written research" from wierwille.......the scriptures POINTEDLY SAY that we shall know them by their fruit. And one more thing.......I spent time delving into all that backstory of wierwille's India trip and claims........a nothing burger. Wierwille plagiarized whole swaths of that "foreign missions pamphlet" from others before him. But I seriously doubt that any of this will have any sway over your wierwille-discipleship. Ash Heap of TWI-story Narcissistic Self-Promotion

References please. BTW...He wasn't a Dr.

He paid the bills... his MLM scheme provided her with an "abundant living."

Hi All. Just FYI......as loudly as they roared viciously against "the homos", BOTH dictor paul and da forehead very much enjoyed watching women have sex with each other to "get them ready"! THAT'S why neither one could ever scream about lesbians. Those chickens sure came home to roost all over da forehead's nest. Methinks they did protest too much.

Sure Mike - I have no beef with you...but if you feel you've committed the unforgivable foible perhaps you should seek professional help.

Hey- keep chasing off the top layer of talent, and eventually you scrape the bottom of the barrel. As we can see, when this continues, we find out what's left when you lift the barrel..

I'm no expert on his reactions. However, judging from how he tended to view women as inferior (and treated them so when the cameras were off), I think he'd be more offended that the top spot in twi was held by a woman, ahd have been offended that lcm let women completely run his life and all his actions when he was President. Anything else might offend him a lot less. Women running the thing, hunting and fishing less popular, no hunting dogs around-I'm sure he'd think it was all just to get rid of all the things he enjoyed. The whole "now you can't just rape the women" thing would be a part of that, since other people to him were just things to get him what he wanted.

OldSkool, many thanks for your story, a litany of abusive tactics if there ever was one. Your first-hand accounts from more recent years than mine (1970-1987) is valuable to me and many others! This part of your story can't be said enough ... "The way international had been hide vpw's evils for years. But because of craig martindale's evils being brought into a court of law they have had to white wash every aspect of TWI into the bland, boring crap it is today. Most disgustingly, they blatantly hide vps plagiarism, the fact that he was a sexual predator and adulterer. They hide that he was a drunk. he was mean, short tempered, kept body guards. They especially hide the way east and west and the hostile takeover vpw did to Heefner and Doop. My God, where would the list stop if I were to continue? They way is a preservation society that has elevated victor paul wierwille above Christ and knowingly covered sin after sin of it's founder and successor(s)." Keep speaking, keep thinking, keep the healing going ... Ciao for now, Charlene

Pssst....hey Mike....if stealing others ideas, written works, research, theological works, etc. is such a harmless thing then why is the way international so protective over anything they deem theirs? They've filed lawsuits over songs in sing along the way before. Oh....that darned double standard thing comes into play...lol

Yep, im 43 atm. I agree, im starting to grow up in the sense that Im salvaging whats left of my life after TWI and seeking new direction where I am fulfilled. Being outta TWI close to 9 years has been a interesting voyage to say the least. The amount of garbage that went on behind the scenes and still goes on is mind boggling. Im inspred by how you live. I have begun to do the same. Help where I can, treat all people as loving as possible, even if it means smiling at a stranger and saying hi, Ditto on life being better after TWI. Even with my current situation, which is trying, is still better than life in an abusive, controlling, manipulative cult.

Hello ILSC thanks for posting up your struggle and ideas. What I believe you are doing here is scriptural - proving all things and holding fast to the good - intended to be as such. This is a very real struggle for all of us who experienced TWI. Our faith to us was (and is) real. You are asking if JS is legit. Well he sure was when he wrote that adultery paper. So is he now I suppose is the underlying question, to the extent that you can trust him like we did teachings in the ministry? I think we need to be more discerning now than we ever have before. I've already spent a few decades of my life giving out unearned, unrequited, and unappreciated loyalty in my life in the name of blind faith. Jesus taught you know people by their fruit. This principle certainly applies to organizations as well. I don't know JS personally enough to give an opinion there. I will say that JS compared to VPW is definitely a Biblical scholar. However, that is not saying much. MRAP was asking opinions on JS work the REV. Here is where issues with old wineskins impact things IMO. The scholarly environment JS grew up in, trained in, was one of isolationism. One where one hero, extremely dedicated to the scriptures, would take the over 300 verses on Holy Spirit, lock himself in a room, and write the piece RHST that revolutionized Christianity. (We didn't see what was happening behind the scenes). One where we had literal translations according to usage, one where we were the only ones resurrecting EW Bullinger's "Figures of Speech" of which modern literary works may use a handful of these. We had the "only truth" on orientalisms, knowing the meaning of obscure scripture expressions like "apples of gold" and "for this purpose was I spared". There was a whole logic rhetoric pattern built in to develop all sorts of mental acrobatics when scriptures contradict each other in ways. You don't see all that stuff in yourself working scriptures. This is why there is a body of Christ. There is a need for collaboration. Cross-denomination work. Evaluating many different opinions. One of the Way's biggest doctrinal error teachings is that around the family and household of God. I mean somehow they can read those scriptures about the ONE body, and construct some inner elite circle called the "household of God". In this inner elite circle you can trust people, do drugs, be a drunken idiot, abuse people mentally, verbally, and sexually, and act like a rock star. That practical error of living an "elitist body of Christ" turned into doctrinal error, and now you have all these splinter groups constructing their own little "households of God" all over the countryside. Not one gets along with the others. Not one interacts with the other members of the body of Christ in their own communities, the other churches, Christians. You see, with that doctrinal error there is also an isolationist perspective that is wrapped up. That is where the main challenges lie, IMO. That's why I can say enjoy JS work as a commentary perspective. I read other commentaries now studying scripture. I remember taking a class in college on the Pauline epistles. The Catholic priest with a doctoral degree taught us to study that way. Read the commentaries. Read what other members of the body of Christ are inspired by. I was an idiot, and could only have stuck in my mind "remote context" and "where it was used before" and "Paul's thorn in the flesh". Thus, VP's commentary was the only one that I did not discount in my mind. Do you think that might have led to poor life decision choices? Duh. Oh, I failed the class too. Hopefully by now I have learned something from it. I know some post TWI have discarded Christianity. I personally can't relate to that. To me Christianity is all about a relationship. I mean the same Lord Jesus Christ who was there for me in 7th grade pre-TWI when I was born again, the same one I talk to every day, He hasn't left me. Praying, studying, being spiritual to me are all important aspects to life. To me that is enough. Sometimes my journey leads me among other churches and Christians other times it does not. I trust Him and move forward. The atheists can call me deluded. It's OK. I have to live my life with my vision, my eyes.

Jim Jack, if you want to know about awesome teachers and people who do awesome things, I'd love you to come with me to either of the two churches I regularly attend, spend time with the ministers there and with the congregations, and come out with us on some of our many and varied genuine outreach and assistance events. You will find many who walk the talk, and talk the walk. There are many people who are worthy of national and international respect, genuine scholarship, genuine very high level appointments (one is chaplain to the Queen), one is a peer of the realm (a genuine aristocrat) - and all are so humble, quiet, gentle, and inclusive. There are no TV evangelists, but from time to time the BBC broadcasts the Easter or a Christmas service from Bath abbey (where the Queen's chaplain has his "regular job" as the Rector of the abbey) and the rector is the nicest man who really points the way to Jesus and honours God. You want what he's got, not because he "sells" it in loud manner, but because of his quietness, peacefulness and confidence in the Lord. The peer has set up many programs to assist homeless and vulnerable people and is a real "mover and shaker" to get things done that bring Christ to the overlooked, and to build Christian unity among believers. Yet he's so self-effacing that he is easy to overlook. I know of several who have given land or large amounts of money for community projects (it's taken me a long time to find this out because they don't shout about it). I know people who have very little in financial terms, but spend their time and energy tirelessly doing things that benefit their community, because of their love for Christ and their desire to show that love. In fact, I could write a very long list of awesome but very humble people that I meet through these churches and the other very active churches, of all denominations, throughout this city. Jim Jack, I can arrange meetings for you with some mightily awesome Christian folks, who from genuine Christian love seek the wellbeing of their community in a huge variety of ways. I can't promise splashy miracles. I can promise genuine heart and genuine and observable turn-round in a myriad of ways, in people's lives. Please let me know when you would like to come with me.

Yes many modern churches have a similar approach. Many like the works of Dave Ramsey and utilize them as teaching materials for any who are interested. This you could categorize as a loving godly approach. TWI has a debt policy. Their view of people who have any kind of debt is that they are milk Christians who can't digest the meat of the Word, therefore they have a policy that people aren't able to take their Advanced Class until they have no debt. They can't be fellowship coordinators, they can't go way disciple, they can't go into the Corps. They also lie about this, saying they don't have a debt policy, they have a teaching from the Bible and requirements for classes or programs. This is a lie. It is a policy. Otherwise, why would they restrict entry into any advanced training or leadership program tied to it? How closed-minded are they about this? Well, I personally know of more than one time that it was brought up at top leadership placement meetings in general discussions with the BODummies, and then immediately shut down. What I mean by shut down is that the topic was closed for discussion in an open mic session immediately. I also know of a Corps person who did a good deal of research on the topic, and sent it in presenting it in a very loving and non-confrontational way. The intent of the paper was to try and get the thickheaded BOD to soften the stance and the policy, more like the Bible's approach. This individual was dropped from the Corps and kicked out of the ministry for basically presenting the research. The same kind of vicious response from top leadership as you see with what's his face presenting the paper on adultery. TWI has a debt policy. And vicious reactions to people who try to show them from the scriptures anything to soften their hard line stance. They purport to be a ministry with Biblical research in the title, yet they close their minds to the scriptures teachings and approaches. This latest installation of the caste system, the "Bible study coordinator" IMO arose because of the grass roots movement among the TWI followers to basically ignore the debt teaching and get home mortgages and student loans anyway. So many areas have nobody that was dumb enough to rent in bad areas of town just to have the title of fellowship coordinator. Or you would have basically 80% of the local remaining followers - the ones with roots in the community and kids in school - all of those types would have mortgages. Your basic follower living in civil disobedience to this hard-line mandate. But then there was nobody "qualified to lead", and the Corpse transient debt-less renters in bad areas of town would have to cover more and more fellowships as leaders. So this is their compromise. Let the 80% have a few of their own little get-togethers, but named differently. Stubborn, stupid, and abusive.

Yeah......why isn't twi TEACHING people to properly budget, borrow and leverage debt to their advantage? Could it be.....that they do NOT want to see people empowered and moving forward? Just seems that the more people advance in opportunities, careers, money-smarts, and life choices.......then, they exit twi altogether. And, yeah.....a mortgage has some risks, but living in a rental apartment/home in a less-than-better side of town HAS RISKS. And.....when that mortgage is paid off, happy days are here again. Woohoo !!

What a total load of bullocks. How much more inventive can TWI be, in belittling people? Most everyone you meet has a debt - a mortgage - that they are working to pay off. It's cheaper than renting, often. (Even though my mortgage is quite a lot of money, it would be nearly twice as much to rent a similar place - and I couldn't rent anywhere remotely habitable for what I pay in mortgage... a grotty bedsit, maybe?) (Actually, I couldn't even afford to rent a place!!) Debt has risks, true, but there are risks in not having debts. Much better to help people think about their money in a proper manner, learn to budget properly, and work out the best way to borrow if there is really no other way. My church hosts a Christians Against Poverty debt centre to help people in debt. Helps them manage finances, gives them a compassionate hand up when they're crushed by debt, sets up debt plans and even bankruptcy (so as to give a fresh start). Isn't that a better way to encourage people with debt - rather than beat them over the head with Bible verses? And the gentle compassionate approach - guess what! - leads some people to choose to become very thankful Christians.

yeah, awesome right? I'm not sure how new this is, I think at least a year old. It does all boil down to a BOD that is clueless and unable to admit they are wrong. We had something similar about 10 years ago when we were pressured to make smaller fellowship sizes and more fellowships. It was supposed to improve retention by giving people more individualized attention. With the no-debt policy ("we don't have a debt policy, we have a teaching from God's Word, and requirements to participate in certain programs..." yeah, yeah, shut up, it's a policy), we had not enough fellowship coordinator candidates to meet the new "more, smaller groups" mandate. This led to the invention in some areas of the "Fellowship Contact", a person who was the de facto fellowship coordinator but without the title. The branch coordinator was supposed to be the real coordinator, giving them extra attention, because they didn't have a real coordinator. I always hated that and treated them like the rest of the hfc's. Back then I still thought it would work itself out - they would see the problem and fix it. I was wrong of course. Recently, I was talking to my mom about this Bible Study/Fellowship distinction. She told me one of them - I think the Bible Study - was supposed to be more outreach focused while the other was more in-depth in the Word. I might be flipping it, but it seemed silly. "Oh, so you guys aren't focused on outreach now?" "No, no, we still do outreach." "Well, what's the distinction? What do they do that you don't do, and visa versa?" Never really got anywhere on that. They are still trying really hard to figure out how to "move the Word". It must be discouraging and confusing to believe the Word IS over the World, and this here now is what prevailing looks like. Nobody wants what they are peddling.

I think it's great we already have both! I've read a few revealing books by ex-way folks and as Rocky mentioned I also look forward to Penworks' Undertow – btw she does have a very interesting blog too. I bet there will be more books by others coming out in the future. WordWolf has done a fantastic job on various timelines – an invaluable resource on Grease Spot, and don't forget the analysis coherently expressed in podcasts and posts by some very articulate folks. I'm ok with any drama at Grease Spot – I figure it comes with the territory; sorting through the ugly details, dealing with any mental baggage or just trying to articulate an issue can get messy and challenge one's interpersonal skills. I also believe when something rings true it comes across loud and clear through any "noise" – even if it has to make the long and arduous journey through emotionally laden posts /> . A lot can be said for the interaction on Grease Spot. I like the give and take dynamic on threads and in chat (haven't done that in a long time though) - you don't get that from reading a book. (edited to add the interactive feature of Grease Spot - came to me 2 seconds after i posted)

The national debt has risen? Did I win?

I spoke in tongues on my own before my family got in to twi. I didn't know what it was, but it felt good and I enjoyed it. I believe it was (as Waysidet has described it) glossolalia. I still do it now. I guess my answer is none of the above. I dont think I made up the interpretation of tongues, but maybe unconsciously I did. I didn't intentionally fake it.