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FOR MIKE: Please follow this link. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plagiarism Observe the definitions. Observe how references are set out. The references are RIGHT THERE in the text at the point where work is referred to, copied or quoted. The references point to footnotes, where the precise location of the original idea or phrase is noted. Sometimes these footnotes are placed right at the bottom of the page on which they occur (as in Wiki articles); sometimes at the end of each chapter in a book; and sometimes collected together at the end of the book under the different chapter headings. Everything is CLEARLY IDENTIFIABLE. Any student who has submitted a thesis for a first degree (Bachelor's degree) or an advanced degree (Master's or Doctorate) will have completed that thesis by referencing other people's work in this manner. Therefore, if VPW had indeed got (firstly) a bachelor's degree in some aspect of theology, and (secondly) a doctorate, he'll have learned to quote other people's work in this manner. Not to do so certainly would not fall within appropriate academic standards, and may lead to an accusation of plagiarism. And he will have been sternly warned about plagiarism, copying the works of others, without giving appropriate credit. Quoting too much of someone else's original work (ie, what the original author writer has found out for him/herself, and building on the shoulders of the giants they have referenced and footnoted) will also lead to problems, this time of copyright infringement. It's only okay, if there is written permission from the author. I'll leave it to you to look up "copyright" in Wikipedia or some such. In essence, both plagiarism and copyright infringement are theft of intellectual property. Theft of ideas, of thought processes. Potentially leading to loss of other people's financial rewards for their intellectual property. Plagiarism and breach of copyright are not victimless crimes. VPW wanted us to think that he was a learned man. Why then didn't he act like a learned man, one deserving of academic respect? He wanted "his people" to act like learned students. Why not then give them the tools to do so? By that I mean, the appropriate references to reputable authors, their works, their research. It's not enough to sell The Companion Bible in the bookstore. CB was out of copyright, which is why VPW was happy to use it and let "his people" use it. Nevertheless, even then VPW didn't supply proper references. just pinched stuff wholesale from the careful appendices.

OldSkool thanks for the story. It has more impact than you realize. One of the lies the Way uses continually in their ongoing whitewash process and campaign is "yes, the ministry was corrupt in the past, but we're all better now". Continual stories like this decade after decade show the truth. The Way ministry is not better. It is an old wineskin that functions now like it has throughout the history of the ministry, centered around the top head cheese. It is abusive, manipulative, unthankful, uncaring, and vindictive. Why? Because that's how its leaders are and always have been at the very top. The common people just never see it because the leaders hide this side of the Way ministry. Dual standards. Hypocrisy. Elitism. One rule for the elites, another for the populace. The Word lays bare their motivations too. They teach and control for filthy lucre's sake. $65 million in total assets. Over $30 million in cash sitting around to invest in the money market year after year. How much savings total do you think all the members currently of the Way International have in their private savings accounts? I would venture to say if you added up all the private savings assets of current active members of the Way International, that it would add up to a whole lot less than $30 million. This is an imbalance. This is a lopsided equality. This is simple exploitation. This is a one-way money flow. This is not Christian abundant sharing as recorded in the Bible. We even had retemory verses about this, how your abundance may supply their want, and their abundance supplies your want, so that there may be equality. You see in genuine Biblical teachings and functions according to the Bible there is equality. Balance among all members. Equal input, equal say, equal benefit. Inner circles of Pharisees contradict Christ. They are anti-Christ.

Mike........the ONLY reason I am posting on another one of your delusional wierwille-adulation ramblings is..........you CHERRY-PICKED my quote to substantiate wierwille in a good light. Frankly, my post is THE EXACT OPPOSITE. Wierwille made bald-faced claims throughout his life. He was a serial, pathological liar. He plagiarized wholesale from every available source he could scrounge. A pathetic loser and lazy charlatan. Count me in the DWBH camp.......I have NO INTEREST in this discussion.

Steve Lortz: "Before proceeding, let's review the written material and its 5-senses meaning. On page 83 of PFAL, this is exactly what Wierwille wrote, "It does not say search Shakespeare or Kant or Plato or Aristotle or V.P. Wierwille's writings or the writings of a denomination. No, it says, 'Search the scriptures...' because all scripture is God-breathed. Not all that Wierwille writes will necessarily be God-breathed; not what Calvin said, nor Luther, nor Wesley, nor Graham, nor Roberts; but the Scriptures - they are God-breathed." The 5-senses meaning of this passage, according to all the laws of grammar, is as follows: Wierwille's words fall into the same catagory as the words of Shakespeare, Kant, Plato, Aristotle, Calvin, Luther, Wesley, Graham, Roberts and denominational writings; the words in this catagory are different from the words in the catagory called "Scripture" because ALL the words of Scripture are God-breathed, while NOT ALL the words of the other catagory will necessarily be God-breathed. Let's start with the context and work inward. Chapter 6 of PFAL (pp 81-92), titled "That Man May Be Perfect", is about the function of God's Word. The chapter begins with a citation of II Timothy 3:16, and ends with a citation of II Timothy 3:16&17. The over-arching context of the paragraph on page 83 is "All scripture is given by inspiration of God [God-breathed], and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." The first part of the paragraph on page 83 reads, "The Bible was written so that you as a believer need not be blown about by every wind of doctrine or theory or ideology. This Word of God does not change. Men change, ideologies change, opinions change; but this Word of God lives and abides forever. It endures, it stands. Let's see this from John 5:39. "Search the scriptures..." The first sentence of the paragraph contrasts the written Bible ("All scripture" according to the over-arching context, II Timothy 3:16) with "every wind of doctrine or theory or theology." The second, third and forth sentences contrast "This Word of God" (the written Bible, "All scripture") with men, ideologies and opinions. Men, ideologies and opinions change, according to Wierwille, while "this Word of God" (the written Bible, "All scripture") does not. So the context within the first part of the paragraph sets up a series of contrasts between the written Word of God ("All scripture") and the products of men; winds of doctrine, theories, theologies, men, ideologies, opinions. With the fifth and sixth sentences, Wierwille introduces a new citation, "Let's see this from John 5:39. 'Search the scriptures...'". So the "this" of the fifth sentence refers to the contrast between the written Word and the writings of men. Wierwille is introducing John 5:39 to point up that contrast. As we have seen above, in the rest of the paragraph under consideration, Wierwille continues the series of contrasts: the writings of the Scriptures with the writings of Shakespeare, Kant, Plato, Aristotle, Wierwille and denominations; the writings of the Scriptures with the writings of Wierwille, Calvin, Luther, Wesley, Graham, and Roberts. The "Not all" that begins the last sentence of the paragraph is a contrasting allusion to the "All" that begins II Timothy 3:16, "All scripture is God-breathed..." ALL scripture is God-breathed, but NOT ALL that men write is God-breathed. [u[In the whole paragraph, Wierwille places his own writings squarely in among the writings of the other men."

Ok - I get it - you think that you and vpw are above the laws of our land… AND since you seem intent on siding with wierwille the unabashed plagiarist, pathological liar and glory-grubbing thief AND you have NOW openly stated you are willing to take the consequences of your choice Then you should not complain like it’s a personal attack on you when someone criticizes the unscrupulous methods of the aforementioned unabashed plagiarist, pathological liar and glory-grubbing thief (aka wierwille).

Never happened, Dude. Not only did Mr. Wierwille fail to cite his sources, he made a concerted effort to conceal their origin. So, he wasn't simply a plagiarist, he was a plagiarist with a nefarious intent. That's some bad chicken.

After reading so many historical timelines of the way international here on GSC, and being an eyewitness to many of the changes implemented during/after the Allen lawsuit, it all comes down to one perpetual whitewash. The way international is a whited sepulcher. It all makes perfect sense to me now, especially when I consider the past that the way international does not want revealed in any capacity - unless of course its the approved version they teach the in-res corps through Ms Wierwille's incomplete biography of vpw, etc. But let's not forget the approved versions of the many nostalgic character traits vpw supposedly demonstrated as the man of god for our day and time. I was 32nd way corps, graduated in 2003. From 1996 - 2003 I spent my time immersed in all things the way international. Lived with my fellowship coordinators, moved with them, as they became candidate corps, went way disciple as they did - only in a different state. Was an assistant fellowship coordinator the remaining six months after my first way disciple year. Started my candidate year as a fellowship coordinator then went way disciple my apprentice year and was assigned to HQ. Spent two years in residence only to be assigned as assistant department coordinator at hq upon graduation from the corps. Became department coordinator within two years. Within a year as department coordinator was asked to be on the presidunce cabinet. Two years later I made my exit in 2008. Starting in 96 I was blown away by martindale's teachings, classes, etc. In my youthful zeal I choose blinders that suited my comfort level. Martindale was the man of God in my mind. I was told by my fellowship coordinators (who had been dropped from the way corps and been around damn near 30 years and were going corps a second time) of some of the history, fog years, the importance of the present truth, why the past was so bad - the adversary uses it, the importance of staying lock step with hq/Martindale, etc. During that time I witnessed the debt policy implemented, the no gift policy, learned of the no pregnancy BS, kept a tight schedule that my fellowship coordinator approved and oversaw. I was the perfect cult leader in training. I was so gung ho that when craig had us dial in on the phone hookup and admitted to a one time consensual affair with Mrs. All3n that I knew it must be the devil trying to take out my MOGFODAT. But during this time of supposed one time consensual affairs.......my exposure to dissension within the ranks from my branch/limb coordinators at the time began in full. But I was still lock step sold out to twi and craiggers.....aaaaaaannnnnd then I was assigned to hq for my second tenure as way disciple and my apprentice year. During this time I began adjusting my blinders to allow more light to shine. - 1999 - A couple months after I arrived at hq craig was asked to leave. My cabinet guy informed us that a major impediment had been removed. - Shortly after craig's departure dissenting top leadership (S@iler, Pannasmello, et al.) were rounded up, told to move into founders hall for monitoring and then either quit or were fired if they didn't get in line with Rosie the riveter. - Afterwards, hq staff were informed via their pres. cabinet that the board of dummies had invited two cult experts to hq and instructed hq staff to answer any questions honestly while going about our wayfer lives as normal. - During this same time frame so many changes were ushered into staff's and way corps' routines. Examples follow (but are not limited to): the pregnancy policy abolished, staff moved from need basis pay scale to salary based on an hourly basis (aka start of 46 hour hour cap with ot approved by presidents cabinet up to 52 hours and more hours than 52 approved by BOD,) Coerced volunteer time was now separate by cabinet area and coerced with department coordinators signing up those that didn't volunteer), staff personal schedules were no longer required to be turned in for approval, two by two travel was no longer mandated but encouraged, bod were forced to implement a harassment policy into the staff hand book as a system of redress for hq as well as staffers, STS attendance was now supposedly voluntary but checklists were still gathered by department every Monday morning, the noon meal was no longer mandatory, etc. - All of this gave the impression that rosalie was our great deliverer. Us plebe staffers had no idea that behind rosalie were lawyers hired by TWI to diffuse lawsuit ammo and whitewash the cult yet again from craigs lunacy. Whitewashed it so far and thorough that teaching responsibilities were decentralized from the president of TWI to many chosen folks. That way there was no charismatic leader to point the finger at. Wax on, wax off. - It was during this time that I was transferred out of my department and onto a large project to repair the main electrical loop that had fried from neglect. I found myself a fly on the wall to so many long time staffers and way corps that kept telling the same stories about craig and vpw. Abuse, adultery, large scale involvement of way corps to procure and hide that vpw and craig were serial sexual predators who preyed on any woman they found vulnerable. Personal misuse of ABS by board of trustees/directors over the years. Heck, this was such a big deal that even rosalie had to pay TWI to have grounds cut her grass at foxhaven lest she be found guilty of private inurement which would risk TWI losing its 501c3 status. The list could continue. Needless to say that my blinders were just about off at this point. - It was during this time that rosalie announced that twi had settled the lawsuit with the Allens. This announcement was during lunch in the OSC so all staff were present. Most people were in a daze filled with relief that the adversary no longer could seek to destroy TWI through this lawsuit. There were handfuls of people that simply sat there with a blank stare and I was one of them. I sat there and thought WTF does rosie mean she settled a RICO case (and other charges) that had been levelled against TWI? Settled, that's a payoff to keep it out of court, right? Guess my critical thinking skills were developing in their infancy at this juncture. Ok, after leaving HQ to go in-residence at camp gunnison this is where I started to learn some very startling truths. It was during this time I learned that rosie had two known lesbians living in her basement at foxhaven. Frankly, I coulda cared less about it except twi was so extremely anti-homosexual. I also took time to peruse through old corps night tapes of LCM. Rosalie hadnt had the chance to purge the study hall library at gunnison late 2001. So I heard first hand so many tapes where he defamed standing way corps, et al., went on cursing tirades against the IRS, etc, and was just a complete hateful a$$. Definately not words a true minister would impart. She purged it all before I graduated. Next I dove into university of life. I devoured tape after tape, but it was VPs Roman teachings that I was enthralled with. I was told by one of my corps brothers at the time to read Just and The Justifier by Charles H. Welsch - a student of E.W. Bullinger. I was shocked that the content of the Roman teachings were straight outta Welsch's work, yet no credit was given. VPW took all the credit for the teachings....period! Naturally, this started to open my eyes to the issues TWI should have with vpw's years of plagiarism. They should have but don't care at all. Upon my graduation into the way corps I was starting to become keenly aware of the many problems twi had in front of them to survive as a church/ministry. I was still under the impression that rosalie was the deliverer and was slowly changing things from the inside for the betterment of God's standing belivers in the household of the way. Pfffft. My assignments at hq as assistant DC, DC, and prez cabinet opened my eyes fully to the sad truth. The truth that if the Allen lawsuit never happened nothing would have ever changed. in TWI But change happened anyway so that must be good and rosalie still TWI protector, right? Wrong Wrong Wrong! During a cabinet meeting one Thursday afternoon rosalie went on a rant because a certain clergy member at TWI had skipped the STS to attend their kids softball game. She plainly stated that she hated all the changes that had been forced on TWI over the years as a result of the Allen lawsuit. She said if she could, she would take a baseball bat to the dude who had skipped the STS. If she could she would undo all the changes forced on TWI by their lawyers. IT was during this time that I fully started to realize the simple truth. The way international had been hide vpw's evils for years. But because of craig martindale's evils being brought into a court of law they have had to white wash every aspect of TWI into the bland, boring crap it is today. Most disgustingly, they blatantly hide vps plagiarism, the fact that he was a sexual predator and adulterer. They hide that he was a drunk. he was mean, short tempered, kept body guards. They especially hide the way east and west and the hostile takeover vpw did to Heefner and Doop. My God, where would the list stop if I were to continue? They way is a preservation society that has elevated victor paul wierwille above Christ and knowingly covered sin after sin of it's founder and successor(s). Most importantly rosalie rivenbark has hid her own sins as someone who not only knew that craig was a sexual predator but also helped him conceal his crimes until she risked too much exposure. The way international truly is extremely deceptive in how they have handled God's Word. I'm thankful I witnessed what I did and can put it out in plain sight, So much more could be said, so much more had been said. Here's part of my two cents. - -

Kenyon died in the late 40's and Bullinger in the late 20's. Neither one of them was alive when Wierwille did his class or wrote his books to sue him for Plagarism of copyrighted materials,

Some of the challenges in discernment is to see evil for what it is, rather than lessening the impact with words, excuses, enablement. Foibles, or peccadillo's another synonym or adjective often applied to VPW when discussing his character flaws include the "pedicure plus" program, as depicted here: http://empirenet.com/~messiah7/ltr_newwoman.htm So are these the "foibles" that God just overlooked while giving VP non-stop revelation? Or perhaps was he a huckster, a shyster, a con-man when it came to those claims? Next, does character come into play, or is it just God "automatic writing" something with a possessed vessel? My thoughts are that is not how it works. Every man is known by their fruit, not by their ability to be a possessed vessel for use.

Janet gave her testimony every ROA about her "deliverance." I would think "There she is again, talking about how she used to be a lesbian."

Great posts, Old School! Don't know why this posted twice. 2 means completion, right? Bulliger

Well, if VP had gone to a normal school for his doctorate, like the Catholic priest that taught my Pauline epistles class in college, rather than a send-in-your-ceral-boxtops-with-your-book-report college like the one that was run mail-order out of a house in Manitou Springs, Colorado where VP obtained his doctorate, then maybe he would not have been that lazy academically. But I guess that's the point his critics make about his doctorate. If he was all about doing things the right way, he wouldn't have enrolled in the ceral boxtop book report college that wasn't accredited.

IMO being shunned by a cult may have varying degrees of difficulty and impact based on family involved, but being shunned by a cult is not an experience I would say that Jesus had in mind for his followers in any respect. Being shunned by a cult is literally what is happening. They use the verses in the Bible 'mark and avoid' that Paul wrote about during his voyages in Romans 16:17-18. But the truth of the matter is that Romans 16:17-18 is written to the believer so they can avoid people like the ones doing the shunning. v18 talks about people who don't serve our Lord, but their own appetites. Pop quiz. Who are the ones serving their own appetites here? The lowly believer complaining about the debt policy and doing research on it? Or the President sitting on $65 million in assets with $30 million in cash to invest in the money market year over year while members are broke, in debt, and destitute?.

Leaving is much harder with a family imo. Twi has a long track record of treating people like garbage, id say its a tradition that goes back to vpw. If they could have all the staff working for free and give three hots n a cot they gladly would.

In the 50's, vpw was a cipher, except in the little community where he worked. It's hard for YOU to imagine nobody hearing of both vpw and Kenyon and being aware of the contents of Kenyon's books and having contact information for Kenyon-but that wasn't the internet age. Leonard was the only one known to have found out- and he made it clear he was offended by the theft that is plagiarism-he made that clear in writing. He was legally and morally in the right. vpw WANTED to be a household name-but had to play a careful game. If "his" materials got too wide a dispersal, his rampant plagiarism might have been caught. So, he kept the tapes and collaterals under his grip.

"These 3 types of common activity are the bookselling market, the academic community, and a small family of 2 parents and 4 children. NOW, does anyone here remember this argument of mine? I would not want to place the same requirements on that small family regarding intellectual ownership and how knowledge gets distributed. Would you? Parents have to put footnotes on what they teach their children? Not reasonable." [It's ethically and morally responsible for the parents to cite their sources, even if it's not in an academic fashion. I do so when dealing with 1 child, and it's VERY reasonable.The kids get a sense of things having sources, and that they can learn from them also. It's NOT difficult nor cumbersome.] "How about a much larger family of 4 sets of sibling parents and their 16 children? Would it be plagiarism to print out teachings and instructions to a large family like that? I’d still say no." [If they were taking from the work of others, yes, it would be plagiarism. Most people wouldn't insist on legal measures at that level, but legally, it's plagiarism. Sorry your lack of understanding of plagiarism results in your misunderstanding of this.] "When things started out with Dr's ministry they were just a small church in a small town. Should the collateral books been cluttered up with footnotes in that setting?" [Trick question. When it was a small church in a small town, there WERE no collateral books because there was no CLASS for which to have collateral books. Later, when vpw ripped off Leonard's class and began teaching Leonard's class and saying it was his own, he never MENTIONED Leonard to the students. However, the early classes had NO collateral books. The collateral books began once 3 things happened: 1) vpw encountered Stiles' book and plagiarized that entirely, in essence retyping "Gift of the Holy Spirit" into "Receiving the Holy Spirit Today" (which was what he originally called Leonard's "Gifts of the Spirit" class. (The first White Book.) 2) Others transcribed parts of the class from audiotape to print, resulting in the first Orange Book once vpw added the introduction. 3) Others transcribed sermons on specific subjects touched on, resulting in pamphlets like "Studies in Human Suffering." When those were done, there should have been footnotes or endnotes, and credit where it was due. The names "Leonard" and "Stiles" don't appear ANYWHERE there. There's also this delusion you have that books with proper references are :"cluttered." Dig out your old copy of "Babylon Mystery Religion." The book "The Two Babylons" was in the public domain. So long as the sources are cited, it can be used in its entirety. Woodrow took that book and produced BMR. It's heavily, heavily end-noted. You might not even NOTICE that while you're reading, since it doesn't distract from the contents. I've mentioned this before, and you're still ignorant of this. Old news.] "Dr showed his students Bullinger and Kenyon. There were no secrets about his sources." [He kept the names "Leonard" and "Stiles" SECRET. He kept his most important sources SECRET. He mentioned Kenyon and Bullinger SOME of the time, but not others. He said HE worked all the occurrences of the word "spirit" in the New Testament. He said nothing about it being a book Bullinger wrote that the twi bookstore didn't carry. There were other instances with both writers. And he never mentioned that "Are the Dead Alive Now?" was basically 2 books of Bullinger's with some cosmetic differences. Their names don't appear in ADAN at all. His sources were USUALLY secret. And DWBH's mentioned a secret cache of books vpw kept around, from which he directly ripped off work. vpw showed him privately and didn't mention it to twi at large or even on-grounds.] "But then the ministry started growing explosively around 1970, and as it started expanding out of its tiny family-size arena it started growing into the two similar arenas of the book market and the academy. Before 1972 Dr had Elena Whiteside record and quote him saying that he was NOT the originator of most of what he taught, but that mostly he had only “put it all together.” " [Buried in a books most twi'ers neither owned nor read, over 100 pages in, was an off-hand comment about what he did not being original. A few people, determined to whitewash vpw's crimes, pretend that's an attempt to cite sources. All his books left sources out- then one obscure book mentioned something vague in passing, and we're supposed to believe that satisfies any reasonable standard for citing sources or giving credit where it was due.] "Also, as the ministry continued to grow in the 70s and into the 80s FOOTNOTES and accreditation were added to the new publications. A strong example is the credit given to Dr. Martin from Pasadena, the one who cracked the code to the star of Bethlehem. In Volume 5 is another memorable citation where Dr quoted a page or two from Kenyon with proper academic credits. Again, these developments are never included in the plagiarism discussions. " [Your ignorance is showing again. I MYSELF have discussed them- IN plagiarism discussions. (The Martin one, at least.) The interesting thing about this is how this worked out. The actual citations were the results of the actual writers. twi researchers actually did all the work, and cited their sources. That was the case in the scholarly works that didn't resemble the early books at all. This culminated in JCOPS and JCOP. Who were those writers? Hard to tell-their names don't appear in those books. The books read "By Victor Paul Wierwille." Not "edited by". vpw takes all the credit for THEIR work. vpw seemed unable to fully give credit one way or another. It resembles a pathology.] "Oh, and surprise,surprise! "The Act of Creation" was written by someone we all know! He is Arthur Koestler of "The Thirteenth Tribe" fame. Actually he's much more famous for his many other books, than for these two. Thirteenth Tribe is way too political and Act of Creation is way too intellectual to be very popular. " Oh, yes. "the Thirteenth Tribe's premise has been completely disproven.. Genetic tests showed his assertion that the Khazars REPLACED the Semitic Jews was incorrect. Jews share genetic markers with other Semetic peoples, and not with the Khazars. The book is still popular with various anti-Jew or pro-Nazi sympathizers, and people who whitewash vpw's reputation. Interesting grouping there.]

You didn't answer any of my questions. DWBH is right. I've heard enough to know now where you stand. Sorry, veepee is not my hero. Strawman, red herring, etc. Yup. DWBH got it right.

At the risk of encouraging further ridiculous input and illogic from Mike, I offer the following, against my better judgement and waste of time. Mike.....your entire rap is based on the acceptance of dictor paul's illogical, private interpretation and outright, abject, voluminous plagiarism in and throughout his entire phony "minus-tray". IMO, that is a completely false premise. Your ONLY evidence and back-up is based on the presumption that whatever dictor wrote was "revelation", or "godbreathed". It is a false presumption full of logical fallacies and confirmation bias on your part. You continue to delude yourself, after all these years, that everything dictor wrote was "written by the finger of God". That is simply untrue. Your illogic is filled with false equivalencies, straw man arguments, red herrings, and purely unprovable anecdotal "evidence". Your basic premises are false premises based on your own misguided interpretations of dic's alcoholic and drug induced misinterpretations and plagiarism of the works of Bullinger, Stiles, Leonard, Kenyon, Ralph Woodrow, Lamsa, Oswald Chambers, E. Stanley Jones, Glenn Clark, Rufus Mosely, Oral Roberts, Rosalind Rinker, Charles Welch, Norman Vincent Peale, Dale Carnegie, AA, Billy Graham, and the John Birch Society, to name a few. He was a drunk, suffering from malignant, paranoid, sociopathic, narcissistic personality disorder with the accompanying compulsive pathological lying. He was a Nazi and Aryan Supremacist. He was a misogynist. He was a serial sexual batterer and rapist. He was a gross lecher and pervert, along with being a child molester, including his own daughters. He was a thief and a charlatan, and from 1982 until he died in May, 1985, he was an opioid addict (codeine and morphine). He was a serial adulterer. He was severely and debilitatingly mentally ill. He was a low C student at his "academic" best. He was an academic fraud and scholastic charlatan. He died of metastatic melanoma, which, by his own definitions, meant he was possessed by debbil spurts. He had the intellect of a lava rock and the personality of a poisonous sea slug. Yet, YOU put him on the pedestal of Mr. "Revelation", the 20th century Apostle Paul. All false presumptions, and logical fallacies. All YOUR CHOICES. YOU choose to believe they're all "god breathed". YOU ARE GROSSLY MISTAKEN AND MISGUIDED IMO. Your entire "argument" is built on the shifting sands of illogic and private interpretation, along with a debilitating confirmation bias based upon your presumptions and personal prejudices. Many of us here have heard all this before, ad nauseam. IMO, the fact that, after all these years you remain haplessly self-deluded in the false doctrines, wrong practices, and prideful, perverted delusions of a charlatan dead now for 32 years, is quite disappointing. You are a peaceful man of wholesome character AFAIK. I've always known you to be a gentle soul, and a kind man. But, to see you so willingly and devotedly stuck on stupid is sad. I am not trying to insult you, or demean you, or disrespect you. I am honestly and forthrightly expressing my opinions and observations. I accept the possibility that I could be totally wrong. However, I honestly and humbly do not think I am. Your rap is old and worn Mike. It is not only disinteresting, but frankly, really annoying. We have all been here before. I for one, have absolutely no interest or desire to revisit the fruitless and time consuming "discussions" with you based on all the illogic, and narcissistic devotion to a dead drunk. Honestly? I am amazed you still do. Peace to you Mike. I'm outta here.

Yes JD it was sarcasm. Just another way leadership controlled via confusion and not taking responsibility like, you know, a real leader would.

feschrift ? or did you mean covfefe - which is Russian for zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

The key to understanding why we put up with this is that leadership made it seem as if WE were the ones who were flawed, not them. We had to persevere to prove ourselves worthy. You probably had somewhat similar experiences in boot camp.

An argument can easily be made from this that Wierwille stumbled upon something bigger than himself, his outrageous claim that he was taught by God and his narcissistic dreams that sparked the beginning of his cult. But because he and his early followers didn't really have a clue as to the real reasons why it grew like it did, they couldn't keep it growing. There's no question it collapsed. What they've got going now isn't anywhere close to what took place in the late 1960s and into the 1970s. Evidence that "we see through a glass darkly..." Love never fails... but predatory licentiousness always will. Not only did VPee and his crew take their eyes off of the goal, did they really ever have them on it to begin with?

A soft answer turns away wrath.....Proverbs 15:1 (one of the retemories) It doesn't always work but it's usually a good starting point.